Talk:Hydroelectricity/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Archive 2

Straits And Channels As Hydroelectricity Source

What is the potential of strait or channels being used for generating electricity? With the currents being so powerfull, any size power plant can be constructed to generate electricity silimar to a wind mill, but underwater. Because certain straits or channels are so large and active, countries on both sides could build huge hydroelectric plants at the sides that would potentially prowide power for hundreds of thousands of homes without much environmental impact. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nadyes (talk • contribs) 21:32, 1 May 2007 (UTC).

Comments

There's just a small typo in the main article - it says Ghw somewhere where it should say Gwh (for Gigawatthours) - if someone feels like changing that...either way.

This following list of new power sources illustrates that about half of them are water related, but the technology is much different, so they need their own article, but should be cross referenced.

Oceanic Thermocline Power:
Space Solar Power:
New Geothermal Methods: heat mining
Tidal Harnessing: Wiki on Tidal power
Power from waves and river currents
Sea-Floor Methane: Methane Hydrates -- Energy Source of the Future?
Power From Waste: FROM JUNK TO JUICE: Increasing Efforts to Generate Power from Waste
Power from Biomass: power from vegetation. Subcategories worth mentioning, Biodiesel: Biodiesel Basics, Thermaldepolymerization (TDP): Explanation of Thermaldepolymerization, Brazil nears energy Independence: As Brazil Fills Up on Ethanol, It Weans Off Energy Imports
Lunar Helium-3: Researchers and space enthusiasts see helium-3 as the perfect fuel source.
Hydrogen As a Carrier of Energy: Hydrogen's Feasibility
Plug in Hybrids: Making a Plug for Hybrids
Untapped Coal Reserves: South Africa has a way to make oil from coal
Wind Power
Hydroelectic:
Safe Nuclear Ccpoodle 13:20, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism

I note with some dismay that this page gets more than its fair share of vandalism. Does anyone have any idea why? Sendervictorius 08:03, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

It does indeed, I really wonder why? (looking at recent edit history, it's nothing but vandalism and reversions.) It's not like it's George W. Bush or any other such hot topic... 131.111.8.98 04:17, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Might be related to the Three Gorges Dam project...that would be all I can think of to. So odd. -Fsotrain09 03:37, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

The IP Address comes from my school. I'd like to apologise for my fellow students behavior. 193.112.136.12 14:03, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Should we make this article protected?--MathaytaceChristou 22:07, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

I've semiprotected the article due to above average anon vandalism. --Duk 05:42, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Good call. I've always found the vandalism of this article rather odd. --Limegreen 05:58, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Re-semi-protected. Please look at the article's history before unprotecting. Two years of non-stop vandalism by someone who isn't a fan of hydroelectricity. --Duk 15:44, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I have noticed this page gets vandalised a lot. I would like to question why it is not currently protected? It would save me and others a lot of time if it was. Thank you, Omega Archdoom. Omega Archdoom^Talk 10:55, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Wow, 7 instances of vandalism in one day. Pardon my incredulity, but can't we keep this page semi-protected semi-permanently? This is ridiculous! Analoguekid 04:35, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Back again, this page is still being vandalised constantly! Why has no-one protected the page yet? Omega Archdoom^Talk 02:16, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I have lodged a request for semi-protection. Omega Archdoom^Talk 02:27, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

External Links

I would like to suggest this external link: HydroExpert by HydroByte Software, (freeware multireservoir and hydropower simulation tool) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.29.16.94 (talk) 20:41, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Hydroelectricity vs. hydropower

Should this article be joined with hydropower? Discuss at Talk:Hydropower. --Andrew 05:16, Feb 3, 2005 (UTC)

Hydropower is two words in one. Hydro and power. Hydro means water, power is power. So in the end, hydropower is really waterpower.
1. How does tidal power relate to hydropower vs. hydroelectricity? (can it be considered a form of hydroelectricity?) Also, are there other methods used to harness hydroelectricity besides dams?
2. Needs a bit more in terms of critique of hydroelectric power; "silting, debris collection over time, and upstream pollution concentration" is a major problem; also, disruption of the natural flooding cycle, as seen in the Nile where the Nile river's famed fertility has gone down because natural flooding has disappeared...
3. Side info about dams built with salmon ladders might be relevant.
--Confuzion 17:13, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

You are allowed to add to this article yourself! Adrian Pingstone 17:21, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Greenhouse gas

Why did people delete the greenhouse gas stuff? i find it an important and very valuable addition to the information about dams, and it's a very little known fact that deserves much greater promotion! What else is wikipedia for other than displaying unbiased knowledge, especially when it comes to something that goes against the status quo that control the flow of knowledge in traditional media (like publishers), especially when that information may be of vital importance to the health of this planet. If someone wants to delete the greenhouse stuff, please tell me why. This section directly conflicts with the carbon emissions section! --129.173.194.118 (talk) 16:03, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

This section is biased and is missing a huge element and glaringly ignores the disadvantages and impacts of hydroelectric development. Here are a number of sources which show that tropical and sub-tropical hydroelectric projects can directly produce more greenhouse gas emissions than coal:

Dos Santos, M.A., Rosa, P.A., Sikar, B., Sikar,E., dos Santos, E. O. (2006). Greenhouse gases fluxes from hydro-power reservoir compared to thermo-power plants. Energy Policy. 34: pp. 481-488.
St. Louis, V.L.; Kelly, C.A.; Duchemin, E.; Rudd, J.W.M.; Rosenberg, D.M. (2000). Reservoir Surfaces as Sources of Greenhouse Gases to the Atmosphere: A Global Estimate. BioScience. 50 (9): pp. 766-775.

The Tucurui dam and reservoir in Brazil, for example, is estimated to produce more GG's than all of Sao Paulo:

Fearnside, P.M. (2001). Environmental Impacts of Brazil’s Tucuruı´ Dam: Unlearned Lessons for Hydroelectric Development in Amazonia. Environmental Management. 27(3): 377-396.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.173.194.118 (talk) 15:55, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Fearnside, P.M. (2001). Environmental Impacts of Brazil’s Tucuruı´ Dam: Unlearned Lessons for Hydroelectric Development in Amazonia. Environmental Management. 27(3): 377-396
St. Louis, V.L.; Kelly, C.A.; Duchemin, E.; Rudd, J.W.M.; Rosenberg, D.M. (2000). Reservoir Surfaces as Sources of Greenhouse Gases to the Atmosphere: A Global Estimate. BioScience. 50 (9): pp. 766-775.
dos Santos, M.A., Rosa, P.A., Sikar, B., Sikar,E., dos Santos, E. O. (2006). Greenhouse gases fluxes from hydro-power reservoir compared to thermo-power plants. Energy Policy. 34: pp. 481-488.

--Goldford (talk) 16:11, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Relative cost per kwh?

Relative cost per kwh? -- Omegatron 03:26, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)

It is pretty hard to equate, because there are many quite local factors at work.

There are geographical economic differences:- Remember the buying power of currencies differs between countries. There are local interest rates, etc. Then there is the expected return on asset value which drives the price expected for the electricity. This is related to the return on investment (and weighted cost of capital) the asset owner needs to return relative to other investments available in that locality.

The cost of hydropower is strongly related to construction costs - the fuel is essentially free, and operating costs are relatively low. Cost of labour, cement, and steel will affect construction costs. Age of plant is also a factor, because all the cheap sites were developed first.

Hydropower costs differ from thermal power costs, which are more strongly influenced by the world price of oil.

Differences in electricity markets in different countries has a bearing too, and affects cost of production operators will bear. For example peaking-plant in Australia uses very expensive to produce power, but only operates when market prices are high.

Here in New Zealand, most power hydopower is base-load and was built years ago, It costs about NZ$0.054 (roughly 4 US cents) per kWh to produce. New generation is economic at about NZ$0.07. Power retails for about NZ$0.14 (10 US cents), including distribution charges and retail margin.

--Sendervictorius 09:50, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Did you want to make this an new section on the talk page?, I asumed you did, if you didn't, then sorry. Superbun (talk) 19:46, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Carbon Release from hydropower?

From the article: "The reservoirs of hydroelectric power plants in tropical regions may produce substantial amounts of methane and carbon dioxide. This is due to plant material in newly flooded and re-flooded areas being inundated with water, decaying in an anaerobic environment, and forming methane, a very potent greenhouse gas."

However, IMO, it should be added that this carbon is not from fossil sources, but a part of the carbon cycle in nature. Is the comparison of greenhouse gas emissions over the lifetime of the dam or for a particular year that we have in the article? One may expect that the methane production will peak soon after the lake is formed and the vegetation decays and then decline as the organic matter is exhausted. If the comparison is for the whole life of the dam, then the methane and carbon dioxide production would be significant, but if it is only for the first few months or years it may not be very significant at all because large dams typically have expected lives of many decades (large dams from the 1930s are still in operation and are expected to last a long time yet). As it is we don't really know whether this greenhouse gas production is significant or not by talking of some tropical dams (a handful, half, two thirds?) producing as much greenhouse gas as a fossil fuel plant (in the first month? the first year? the entire life?). I agree that the topic should be covered, but as it is it is rather weasely in my opinion and could be interpreted as anti-hydro POV Booshank (talk) 16:48, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

It is maybe not weasly, it just suffers from a shortage of facts (what's new? :)). A typical 300 MW hydroelectric power plant will save 2-3 million tons of CO2 every year when compared to the equivalent fuel-burning plant. It has not been demonstrated that the flooding processes produce an amount that approaches this figure. In any case any alleged gas emissions from flooding are part of a natural short-term carbon cycle and therefore sustainable - the carbon was absorbed out of the atmosphere in the last few years. Methane decays to CO2 and water in two years. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.45.185.126 (talk) 14:22, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Move

This article should be moved to Hydroelectric power. Hydroelectricity gets 143,000 hits on Google; "hydroelectric power" gets 611,000.

Hydroelectric Power redirects to this article. MatheoDJ 20:29, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Washington

The article lists a few places that get a large percentage of their power from hydro. I believe Washington State also gets a lot of its power from hydro -- I've seen figures over 85%. Can anybody get a solid number, with a source? If so, I'd like to add it. Thanks!

Tajikistan

I removed Willmcw's entry for Tajikistan, 527,000 GWh (4,000 MW installed); supplies 98% of national demand, from the table showing countries with greatest capacity, because "Capacity" in this context means the maximum energy in a year the country can generate, given the water resources and installed generation. It does not mean the theoretical undeveloped maximum. Many countries, including those in south america, russia and canada have potential for much more development.

Nevertheless, I think the information that Tajikistan has so much undeveloped potential is in itself quite valuable, and think that fact should be added in the main body of the article. The important fact that needs to be stated is how much generation capacity (GWh per year) Tajikistan has now, compared to the theoretical maximum.

I have been unhappy with the "Importance" section, and think it should be redeveloped. I think this is the natural home for the placement of the Tajikistan facts. --Sendervictorius 08:27, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

If/when you do this, you might want to slot New Zealand in there as well. According to Reservoirs and dams in New Zealand, there is installed capacity of around 5,300 MW for a similarly small population (but there is also some thermal, geothermal, and wind installations, with hydro accounting for around 70-80%). Limegreen 23:17, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Further to the note about New Zealand, hydro has always provided the majority of electricity there. The latest figure I've seen is 52% in 2008. When combined with geothermal sources, NZ generates about 65% of its electricity from renewable resources, [1]. 211.28.130.89 (talk) 04:53, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Cost

There is no mention of construction costs in this article which I think is a glaring omission especially considering that the low running costs are mentioned.

I've removed the following:

"Another disadvantage of hydroelectricity is the high construction costs. For example the Hoover Dam cost $49 million dollars to build ($676 million adjusted for inflation) and used 4.36 million yd³ (3.33 million m³) of cement."

It's invalid, since it's not a comparison to any other equivalent generation capacity. Hoover's capacity would cost a couple of billion dollars to build as a fossil fuel plant today. Direct capital costs for new hydro generation today range from $1.50 US per watt to $4 per watt, with smaller projects being more costly per watt. As soon as I have a citation for this I'll add it. This cost is not really different from large fossil plants or what a nuclear plant would ideally cost if their licencing and construction phase wasn't stretched out for decades. It is *less* than the cost per annual megawatthour for wind, since wind plants only have a capacity factor on the order of 33%. Also, cement is only a small part of concrete, not a synonym for concrete. --Wtshymanski 14:59, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

I accept that what i added isn't very good but the construction cost is an important consideration and it deserves some sort of mention. Mabye Hoover wasn't a good example. St jimmy 15:38, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps a more recent project or more average scope can be found. It'd be good to have the costs discussed in some manner. Don't forget the cost of flooded land. Also, dams don't last forever, especially if silt is allowed to accumulate. The recent international report on dams should have some reliable numbers. -Will Beback 18:31, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

I think also some reference needs to be made to the large amounts of energy that are used during construction, which comes mostly from fossil fuels and therefore releases a large amount of greenhouse gases. St jimmy 10:34, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

CO2 released during construction of a hydro plant is trivial - there are huge paybacks. For my own amusement I worked out the following for the proposed Manitoba Hydro Wuskwatim generating station, a 200 MW project to be built in Northern Manitoba by 2012.

Wuskwatim will use about 31,300 tonnes of cement.
Does each ton of cement yield 1.5 T of CO2? check - Industry Canada says average energy input is 5 GJ/tonne. To produce 5 GJ take 0.4 T of coal. Each T of coal can make no more than 3.6 T of CO2. So, each ton of cement clinker will result in 0.9 T of CO2 emitted. So, let's use 1.5 T to allow for shipping, grinding, etc.
So, to make 31,300 T of cement we also make 47,000 T of CO2.
A T of good coal will make about 2 megawatt-hours of electricity (in a moderately good plant, say less than 40 years old).
47,000 T of CO2 would be made by producing 47,000/3.6 = 26,112 megawatt-hours of coal-fired electricity.
Wuskwatim will have a net output of close to 200 MW. 26,112/200 = 130 hours of Wuskwatim's output.
So, if the operation of Wuskwatim during it's life results in the displacement of the coal-fired equivalent power output for at least 130 hours (about 5 days), less CO2 would be emitted overall than was required to make the cement for Wuskwatim. I'm neglecting reservoir emissions from Wuskwatim but these are a tiny fraction of the CO2 emissions of a coal plant, at worst, and are more than compensated by my neglect of the true chemistry of coal (coal is never even as much as 90% C).
A lot of cement is made with natural gas, which emits less CO2 per gJ, or even with some municipal waste, some of which was organic material derived from atmospheric CO2.
Some of the cement will be replaced with fly ash, which is a byproduct of coal plants and so has a much smaller net emission of CO2.
You can make similar calculations for the other inputs to the stations, but hydroelectric plants have such huge "pay back" gains that they rapidly make up the energy value of any input.

Unfortunately the above counts as "original research" and is therefore unusable by itself. It seems to be a hallucination among some that commercial power plants don't "pay back" the energy used to build them. I wonder where the hallucination came from. --Wtshymanski 18:55, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

I thought the hallucination was that Nuclear power plants don't pay back the money used to build them. Pendragon39 17:35, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

You mean like Shoreham Nuclear Power Plant or the reactor that Washington Public Power Supply built? This seems to be mostly a US problem, most utilities expect their reactors to make money or don't build them. --Wtshymanski 17:54, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

The general impression is that nuclear power plants cost more to build and decommission than the market value of electricity produced during their expected life cycle. Of course this view neglects to consider the economic benefits of cheap/subsidized energy production. Pendragon39 00:46, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

In the Pacific Northwest there are a fair number of hydro plants slated for decommissioning because upgrading to meet environmental laws costs too much. Its mostly the smaller projects that are more expensive, as Wtshymanski mentions above. See Condit Hydroelectric Project and Bull Run Hydroelectric Project. Condit was looking at about $3 per watt just for fishladders and spillway modification. --Duk

So it's not a hallucination after all. Pendragon39 22:31, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Huh? what? I wasn't commenting about the above arguments being hallucinations or not. Just giving an example of some smaller plants that are no longer economically feasible because of environmental regulations. I agree there should be a section in the article about hydroplant construction costs- does anyone have some good reading they can recommend on the topic? --Duk

Sorry about that. I'm sorry to hear that small scale hydro plants in the US are not viewed favourably. The situation in Canada is different. See small-scale hydro Pendragon39 00:47, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, many small hydro projects in the United States do succeed - articles about new or refurbished mini- and micro-hydro plants are pretty common in "Water Power and Dam Construction". Not every micro hydro makes sense, but the licencing and financing is much easier than for large hydro. There's a fair number of old mill ponds with a few hundred kw of induction generators making money for some small operator. Economics of hydropower development is worth an article in itself. --Wtshymanski 18:48, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

You mean the economics of small private ventures versus large public investment projects? Or the advantages of having hydroelectric capacity versus foreign dependance (Quebec vs Ontario). Yes, such an article would be more informative than a cost comparison between different energy sources. Pendragon39 00:40, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Sounds interesting, I'll look for that periodical at the local U's library. There is a farmer who lives near me who put in a small hydro plant on his farm. It required fish ladders (not for salmon though). Took him two years and dealing with over 2 dozen local and federal agencies to get the required permission. Do you know, are most of the small hydro projects you've read about on existing impoundments. I think there are a lot of hydro installations being installed on existing dams, but very few new dams being built for the purpose of hydropower (in the US). I'd love to see some statistics on this (have look but haven't found any yet). --Duk 19:02, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Re: Small Hydro, what is the minihydro situation in North America? Seems worth mentioning if only because so many "renewable energy" companies include a lot of "small hydro" in their mix. John McPhee's article (quite a while ago) suggested that most small hydro projects were not new dams, but refits of existing (but perhaps unused) mill raceways to drive a generating turbine. Pjmorse 18:52, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Hoover Dam is mentioned here but not in the article-- Why? It should be included. And as far as cost... it paid for its construction costs and provided thousands of jobs during the depression. Without it California wouldn't exist in its current state.TimothyMcMahon (talk) 20:49, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Switzerland

What about hydro in Switzerland?? Peter Horn 21:02, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Units

I see the table includes expressions such as: USA, 319,484 GWh (79,511 MW installed). I don't understand what it is trying to say. The first unit is watt hours and the second unit is watts. Can anyone clarify what it means?

Yes, a GW is 1,000 MWs. It is that simple. A MWh is the amount of power produced over an hour by a 1 MW machine. A GWhr is the same, for a total of 1 GW of power produced by 1,000 MW rated machine. MW/GW is the amount of power produced by a generator at any given moment. The "hr" is how much that produces over a given hour.

I was planning to research and annotate this, but haven't yet. I think the first term is the actual annual power production, and the second term is the capacity of the installed generating equipment. --Duk 14:59, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Thanks. What you say makes sense. Bobblewik (talk) 15:05, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Adding to that: MW is a unit of Power, GWh is a unit of Energy (The sum of power over time). Duk is right, it should be GWh per annum. Interestingly, in a hydroelectric context, if you divide the GWh per annum by the number of hours in a year, you get a fraction of the installed MW. This fraction is called the capacity factor. 100% capacity factor represents a generator running at full power all year. Obviously, it is in the hydroelectric operators interest (finacial return on capital investment) to keep the capacity factor as high as possible - as high as water supply, electrical load demand, and plant outages would allow. Sendervictorius 10:19, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

GWh means Giga Watts/hour?? Peter Horn 20:57, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes MatheoDJ 20:26, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

No. GWh is a Gigawatt-hour, a measure of energy and is the energy produced by expending a power of one GW for a period of one hour. To find the energy you multiply the power by the time. So 1 GW of power running for 10 hours produces 10 GWh (ten Gigawatt-hours) of energy. Good luck with your research.

Citation

I'm doing a research project on alternative energy, and I can't make heads or tails of this in it's current form. It's not cited; where does the info come from? Are these the feasible numbers, or an unrealistic set based on turning every single river in a country into a series of dams and lakes? Am I ignorantly thinking that these are numbers representing a country's total capacity for production in the future, or do these numbers mean something completely different? Could someone add an explanation of what these numbers mean to the article?

Also, in the first paragraph, it lists Canada as the country with the most energy production. In this data it lists USA as having less capacity, but more installed. Which is more meaningful? MatheoDJ 20:00, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

You're quite right, the tables are confusing. The GWh figures must be annual production (for some year, should be annotated), the second maximum nominal output. So in Canada the capacity is lower, but the capacity factor is much higher. This could be for any number of reasons, but two come to mind: 1) Any pumped storage will be much lower than 100% (intuitively, less than 50% of capacity); 2) Use of hydro as predominantly base-load in Canada, likely more balancing in the U.S. --Gregalton 10:29, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Also the comment by Senddervictoriious that the financial interest is to keep capacity factor as high as possible - this is largely true for any powerplant, but not as simple as that. Since dam-based hydro incorporates a storage component, it may not be designed to run flat-out, and balancing and ramping may be more profitable - will depend how the local pricing for suppliers works. In contrast, fossil plant will have many periods when the marginal cost of fuel is higher than the price paid, and it won't be economical to run. In other words, all things being equal, any plant with a capital cost will want to run as close to capacity as possible, but all things are never equal. (This is also neglecting any potential monopoly power/collusion effects as in California - if taking plant off-line increases prices sufficiently, it may be profitable to under-utilise plant to drive prices up).--Gregalton 10:29, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Does anyone know where the world "capacity" figures come from? This should be referenced. I have found output figures for 2004, but they differ from the ones here.--Gregalton 10:40, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I have just reverted on the table the TWh > GWh switch done. One fact to support first, followed by rough calcs:

1). James Bay Project gives annual output for the first phase which is 10,800 MW capacity of 65TWh, with estimated capacity factor of 60-70%. This would seem to square with most of the plants, allowing for very different capacity figures. Other sources like [2] (sorry, in French, but figures should still be comprehensible) would seem to roughly support that 1,000 MW of capacity converts to somewhat less than 10 TWh.

2). Math would also seem to support. 1,000MW = 1GW, multiplying this by 24 * 365 annual hours gives 8760 GWh, or 8.76 TWh. Allowing for capacity factor of 20-80%, most of the installations would seem to give figures in this neighbourhood. That said, the figures don't all seem to match, or at least it is not clear what methodology has been used.

BUT: these figures really need to have a citation so that it can be checked. My apologies if I have made any stupid mathematical errors.--Gregalton 10:03, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I did the TWh -> GWh switch. The interesting part is that the individual article about the biggest dams seems to do things in GWh, and so do the national production numbers further down the page. But if a GWh is 1000 MW for 1 hour, or 1 MW for 1000 hours, the numbers in GWh seem far, far too small. So something doesn't match. --Alvestrand 19:06, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Could you be more specific? I don't see the ones that you're referring to, they look (after a VERY brief glance) to be okay. If, of course, 1000 GWh = 1 TWh.--Gregalton 21:01, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

The decimal points got me. I was reading 219,123 MWh as 219 MWh, not 219 TWh. Sorry. --Alvestrand 19:00, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

List of top hydro producers

This list is incomplete. I see right away it lacks the Chief Joseph Dam on the Columbia River which has a total generating capacity of 2,620 MW, which is more than 11 of the dams the article has listed. It also omits the John Day Dam, also on the Columbia River, which can generate 2160 MW. I found the source for these figures in the Wikipedia article titled,"Hydroelectric dams on the Columbia River". I propose the entire list be verified or the list be pared down to only the very top dams with verification of their generating capacity. (Symi81 04:45, 3 April 2007 (UTC))

Disadvantages

The recent reorganisation of this page to have "disadvantages" as the first section after the TOC is very unusual, and seems to me to be POV. Any other opinions? I think such a major reorganisation should at least be proposed on the talk page.--Gregalton 14:02, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Advantages

Someone needs to re-insert the advantages. It not only makes the page ugly, but it makes it lack a neutral POV. Xaxx 17:30, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

You're someone. If you see this happen again, fix it! The Ghost of Tesla alone knows why this page attracts so much vandalism. --Wtshymanski 20:42, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Is there a dam infobox?

If not, I plan on importing the one from the Japanese Wikipedia, Example. It could be translated, but at first I'll make a version where only the interface is translated and the variable names are not translated so I can copy them real easy. But after I make that, you could translate the whole thing. -Theanphibian ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:05, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

World Renewable Energy Stat Picture

This cant be correct. I just read last month's economist and wind power was at 0.064% and solar was at 0.039% ..so wind power is almost double of solar power ..and geothermal power was somewhere at 2% so its more than wind and solar power. I dont think we should put up a 2005 stats picture..its not correct. Ninad.

The graph is sourced, so take a look at the reference and compare to others if you have a major problem. The different numbers could be due to exclusion of solar heating, wood heating, etc.--Gregalton 06:43, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

The graph is sourced, but it figures the numbers incorrectly. The PDF that the intro cites reads that, "Renewable energy supplies 18% of the world's final energy consumption... Large hyrdopower represents 3% and is growing modestly...". 3% of the world's 18% does not equal the 16% that the Wiki article claims. Fleetfox (talk) 17:47, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Renewable energy

This would require some researching, but in South Africa we have hydro power stations e.g. Van Der Kloof dam that is actually a 'pumped storage scheme'. The station is only used during periods of high demand and is therefore referred to as a 'Peaking' station. The turbine is run in the normal manner to generate electricity but as South Africa is a water poor country, these turbines are reversed during periods of low demand and is used to pump the water back up into the dam. There are two or three of these schemes and I will try to find out the names and locations of all of them. Johansmal 05:55, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Serious POV

Some statements like: "A further concern is the impact of major schemes on birds. Since damming and redirecting the waters of the Platte River in Nebraska for agricultural and energy use, many native and migratory birds such as the Piping Plover and Sandhill Crane have become increasingly endangered." are simply false.

The Piping Plover is a Northeast Atlantic Coast bird, as is the Sandhill Crane. This article is an obvious example of destructive editing to insert an extreme left-wing agenda into one of the few environmentally friendly sources of power. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.224.220.2 (talk) 18:16, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Took it out, following WP:BB, since there was no source. Hope I'm right in doing so. --Grant M (talk) 08:57, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Two sub-sections on "Greenhouse gas emissions"

Any particular reason why there are two separate sections with this title? If it's to offer balance (one's in advantages and the other in disadvantages) might it be plainer to deal with the topic (e.g., methane production being more potent than carbon dioxide saved; fossil fuel consumption for construction materials, etc) in the same place? Old Moonraker 17:52, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Because there's both advantages and disadvantages for greehouse gas emissions. Oh wow, freaky...two *different* ideas have the same Wikipedia sub-heading...consensual reality as we know it is in danger. But seriously, I don't like the sing-songy "Explanation/Advantages/Disadvantages" style that so many articles have-- true, it does make it easier for the kiddies to cut'n'paste into their assignments (and discover the wonders of plagiarism) -- but I don't have the energy or free time to rewrite even the few articles I watch. If you want to go ahead and get rid of the dopy "Advantages/Disadvantages? style I will thank you. --Wtshymanski 01:31, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

No, I was only considering combining the two "emissions" viewpoints, not changing the whole "Advantages/Disadvantages" format. You've scared me off, now! --Old Moonraker 09:31, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

It's not two points of view. There's some real science (not much) that talks about CO2 and methane emissions from hydro reservoirs. There's the glaringly obvious fact that hydro plants don't burn coal and so don't directly emit CO2. The answers are quantitative, not the simple binary yes/no, good/bad, that so many mass media "issues" are reduced to. I hate the "Advantages/Disadvantages" headings because I think it's a juvenile way to categorize anything but it does make things simpler for we editors. --Wtshymanski 20:01, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

The quantitative, life-cycle comparison is important and needs a knowledgeable and careful editor. More than ever you've convinced me not to venture into this: beyond my expertise! I will be watching the article in the hope that someone attempts it. --Old Moonraker 21:36, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Re-ordering for readability

Some re-ordering of the various sections of this article could make it more accessible to readers. Mainly I think the Countries with the most hydro section should come near the front of the article, and Advantages/ disadvantages should come later on. Probably the Comparison section should be the last section. Happy to discuss before making changes. Johnfos (talk) 10:56, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Have made this change now... Johnfos (talk) 21:09, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Iceland

I think iceland should be mentioned somehow in this article, i read somewhere that about 90% of all energy used in iceland is water based check it out :) - Gunnar Guðvarðarson (My Talk) 22:23, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

From Geothermal power in Iceland: "In 2006, 26.5 % of electricity generation in Iceland came from geothermal energy, 73.4 % from hydro power, and 0.1 % from fossil fuels." I don't think it's necessary to mention, as Iceland's Geothermal power generation is much more internationally well-known than its hydroelectricity. M.nelson (talk) 21:30, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

"No Waste"

The intro says that hydroelectricity produces no waste, but has the "citation needed" tag. In my opinion this isn't needed because it is obvious that no waste is created. On the other hand maybe "obvious" isn't clear and it DOES need a citation... If someone knows the wikipedia rules about "obvious" facts and citations, they should decide whether to keep or remove this tag. M.nelson (talk) 21:26, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Date in intro?

Oops? "It produces no waste, and 29 May 2008 (UTC)does not produce carbon dioxide (CO2) which contributes to greenhouse gases." Why's that in there? Paulmer2003 (talk) 17:40, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't know what happened - I hit the "undo" button to revert some vandalism and the date mysteriously appears ( which I didn't see when I saved the article). Irreproducible glitch or did I mistakenly put some extra hypens and tildes into the text? --Wtshymanski (talk) 17:47, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Questions left

After reading the Disadvantages section, one might have the impression, that in all those rivers, in which there are hydro powerplants built, the only kind of fishes present are salmons. Those who know better, may wonder, what is done, to reduce harming of all those other kinds of animals around there.

They may have heard about screens being placed and rotors being coated, but still have several questions, for the answer on which they have turned to the W-article on this subject. Such as:

What happens to those fishes, that cannot pass the screen? Do they all (have to) stay in the reservoir, or if there is no reservoir, can they all swim back, and if yes, doesn't this disturb their biological rithm and demanded food pattern in a possibly fatal way?
As for coating of the rotors a cardinal question is, in how far falling upon these coated rotors at least shocks the animals, as a result of which for instance they lose their ability to avoid attacks of their natural enimies, further on downstream. Hopefully the answers on this kind of questions as well will be given in this article soon. Natubico (talk) 22:27, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

From this article in another language the information is received, that these problems 'only' concern migrating kinds of fishes. Apart from the salmon, this is also the eal. Which other there are, isn't mentioned there either. But according to that article population of those kinds of fishes is as good as gone in rivers with hydroelectricity plants. This information might very well be added to the version in English as well. Natubico (talk) 13:25, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

"Scheming" engineers

A google search (which tends to turn up a lot of other stuff, I admit) revealed 394,000 hits for "hydroelectric schemes", 444,000 for "hydroelectric projects." I eliminated Wikipedia from the search since there are many derivative sites. "Schemes" is a funny word to most English speakers IMO. Student7 (talk) 11:59, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Non-sustainable?

I added a citation needed for the following sentence. Would love to know which governments don't think hydroelectric power is sustainable: "Some jurisdictions do not consider large hydro projects to be a sustainable energy source, due to the human, economic and environmental impacts of dam construction and maintenance" Eiad77 (talk) 02:02, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

I'll have to look up editorials in the various hydro industry magazines we get here; seems they are always grumbling how large hydro is never considered in various "green" energy schemes (say , by the US government). Large hydro doesn't get the research money that mini hydro, wind, etc. get - it's just not fashionable any more to build a dam and make a reservoir. --Wtshymanski (talk) 14:51, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Pico hydro electric turbine example

Hello, I wrote a summary of a pico hydro electric system which I develloped. This system is designed to recharge a bank of batteries for power supply needed by an alpine chalet. This document aims to share my work for those who might be interested in using a similar project. Within this document, I provide ideas and informations which might be useful. I think this link could take place here, Pico Turbine Hydroelectric. Laurent Moreau. 89.217.169.61 (talk) 18:25, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Somebody add this

This article despairingly does not reference the Hoover Dam which has annual production capacity higher than several of the chinese dams listed. The article is inaccurate and inconsistent with Wikipedia's own content on the Hoover Dam. This article needs to be revised for accuracy and consistency. Please justify this. Calvingao (talk) 06:18, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Work towards a A-class article

I suggest that we work to improve this important article in Wikipedia and make it an A-class article.We can deside what needs to be done, first. Calvingao (talk) 06:21, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Oldest US Hydro

I notice that the oldest US Hydro dam listed is listed as the 40 Hz plant on the Hudson in New York, starting in 1898. However, the dam at Willamette Falls (Oregon) started in 1888 and the current plant was built in 1895. The 1888 plant was also the site of the first long-distance transmission of AC power. Unfortunately, the citations on the Willamette Falls page are out of order, so I don't have data right on hand to back up these claims... I may look into it later, but I'm beat. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Noderaser (talk • contribs) 05:04, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Vulcan Street Plant

I can't edit this page so I'll dump this here and one of you all can do it. Link to the Vulcan Street Plant page which is the Appleton, Wisconsin plant that opened in 1882. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.245.103.13 (talk) 02:28, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Was Vulcan Street really the first? According to [3], by 1881, the power company had built a small generating station and began providing a small amount of electricity to light the village of Niagara Falls and to provide power to several of the mills. This power plant became a tourist attraction. Assuming they are talking about a hydro generating station, this would pre-date Vulcan Street by approx. one year. GPS Pilot (talk) 21:42, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Environmental damage

An editor deleted two sourced sections related to environmental damage with no explanation. I've restored them. Please give a reason for the deletion before deleting again. Will Beback talk 20:22, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

The article needs to be purged of factual errors. Then it should be merged with hydropower to be consistent with the renewable energy sources template. TeH nOmInAtOr (talk) 00:35, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Let's leave the merge discussion to the other page. Can you point to the errors? Let's fix them rather than just deleting the entire sections. Will Beback talk 06:12, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

The name "Hydroelectricity" is inconsistent with the name "Wind power", "Solar power", would make more sense to be called "Hydro power". Errors on this page: Ref 6 is broken, Refs 8,10 are factually wrong, also most of the footnotes tags are unnecessary. TeH nOmInAtOr (talk) 16:58, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

The merge discussion is not here, but at Talk:Hydropower#Suggested merge with Hydroelectricity. -- Crowsnest (talk) 19:43, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

The link in ref 6 has been restored, I changed the text accompanying ref 10. And ref 8 – together with the report of the World Commision on Dams – largely covers the preceding text. I only cannot find the "100 watts per square meter" which seems to be high, see p. 13 of [4]. Can you clarify what you mean with: "...most of the footnotes tags are unnecessary." -- Crowsnest (talk) 21:47, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Dam 4 on the Potomac River

It may be noted that the Hydroelectic plant at Dam 4 on the Potomac river is the only existing rope-driven turbine plant still in operation in the world, [5]. 63.165.209.75 (talk) 15:30, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

"Countries with majority hydroelectricity" part is completely wrong

I believe there is an error on this page. The page claims that only four countries get the majority of their power from hydro. New Zealand also gets 52% of it's electricity from hydro, thus it should be mentioned and in the list. See [6] for details and a link. I would have edited this page, but I do not know how to edit a text box. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.40.160.85 (talk) 13:35, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

You are right, unfortunately I can't edit either, but there are MANY more countries with majority hydroelectricity. Just for starters (with sources):

Etc. The article is quite false. Uvdiv blog (talk) 08:28, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Editsemiprotected

Replace horrendously large OR template at top with {{Renewable energy sources}} 199.125.109.81 (talk) 13:23, 19 July 2009

Power outages

Noticed on major power outages that only the rating for the Itaipu damn outage was correct at 14GW, Sushenkoje should 6.4GW not 64GW and I am assuming Banqiuo should be 1.8 GW, not 18GW 75.158.87.234 (talk) 07:30, 19 November 2009 (UTC) (UTC)

Relative costs of power generation from different sources

A key point is how much does the stuff cost, and compared to other sources - i put a link in to the relevant article - Ref: Relative cost of electricity generated by different sources, which points to sources of cost information but this has been deleted - surely it needs something along these lines? Engineman (talk) 08:36, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Modificar la ecuación para la presión de la represa

El articulo presenta la ecuación de este modo: $P=\rho hrgk$ sin embargo para su valida presentacion deberia estar presentado como: $P=\rho *H*r*k$ .

Major schemes under construction

Bureya Dam is finished, all generators operating. Burger81 (talk) 08:18, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

there are several very large hydroelectric dams currently under construction in Brazil which are not listed in this section. These are

- UHE Santo Antonio Usina Hidrelétrica Santo Antônio of 3,150 MW of installed capacity, construction started in 2008 with generation starting in 2013. - UHE Jirau Usina Hidrelétrica de Jirau of 3,450 MW of installed capacity, construction started in 2008 with generation starting in 2013. - UHE Belo Monte Belo Monte Dam of 11,233 MW of installed capacity, construction started in 2010 with generation starting in 2016.

Not done Please provide reliable sources to back up the statements. ~ Matthewrbowker ^{Say hi!} 03:03, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Done Their construction is pretty easy to verify with a quick internet search. Articles for first two are Santo Antônio Dam and Jirau Dam. Thanks for heads up about those two.--NortyNort (Holla) 04:37, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Addition of Cragside

Hi, not sure what to do, but would like to add Cragside as the first hydroelectricity plant (1870). Cheers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.99.34.252 (talk) 21:54, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Done. The section still needs some expanding though.--NortyNort (talk) 02:10, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

The Norwegian town of Hamn i Senja claims to have had the world's first industrial hydro plant, opened in 1882. http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senja —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.108.205.18 (talk) 15:38, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

how many mw of cragside i dont know — Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.155.5.60 (talk) 12:06, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Merger

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Hello. I propose a merge of Small hydro, Micro hydro and Pico hydro to this article. The articles share the same subject, and could be summarized enough to fit into this article. If no one opposes, I will carry out the task in a day or two. Kind regards. Rehman⁽⁺⁾ 16:39, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

I have no problem and can help out. The length should be a problem. The history section is due for an expansion which will make the article longer too.--NortyNort (talk) 20:45, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

I thought about the size; as the article needs expansion, I have also noticed that some topics needs summarizing (or completely removed). So I believe we should be able to manage the size just within the limits. I will create a temporary userspace here, where I will start working on the new version of the article. And then depending on the users' comments, we can then move it here. You are most welcome in assisting. Kind regards. Rehman⁽⁺⁾ 01:12, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Hello. The merge is somewhat complete, along with many other changes. Please do compare the old version with the new, and feel free to edit the userpage. Also note that a bit more things (expand history section, etc) are left to do. You may also notice that considerable amount of text from the small, micro and pico articles are not included in this merged version, that is because those facts are already mentioned somewhere in the article. But please do add them if I missed any. Thanks. Kind regards. Rehman⁽⁺⁾ 06:31, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Oppose merger of Small hydro, Micro hydro and Pico hydro to Hydroelectricity.

Hydroelectricity is a big topic, with a big article. Micro hydro is a much smaller scope, but still distinct from hydroelectricity and worthy of a good article in its own right. Merging it into the single huge article would swamp its content. I can see some scope for merging Small hydro, Micro hydro and Pico hydro together into one article, but this should be something like Small hydro or micro hydro and stand-alone from the main hydroelectricity.

I'm also concerned at the speed with which some of these merges have been carried out, relative to the pasting of discussion templates, to the lack of any discussion template at all, and for the use of delete and redirect rather than a merge that preserves useful content. This is not good editing practice. Andy Dingley (talk) 10:04, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Hello Andy. If you see the merged article (which is not yet complete), it seems like the merge perfectly fits in. We could always split it back out if it shows that there are things to put it. So based on the current contents, I believe this is the right move in terms of accessibility. Rehman⁽⁺⁾ 11:08, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm still against the merge of "small scale hydro" into hydroelectricity. This is mostly because small scale hydro warrants its own article (WHY merge it at all?) and mostly because hydroelectricity is such a huge topic. If hydro is huge, and the article size is to be kept manageable, then that suggests separate articles for topics like small-scale, turbine design etc. Otherwise they'll inevitably end up either inadequately covered or, as here, WP:UNDUE in the size of the overall article. The current hydroelectricity article isn't well balanced to begin with, but this is a push in the wrong direction. Imagine if the same merge was done for turbines - the size of a resultant article, with each topic in proportion, would be massive. Andy Dingley (talk) 10:03, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Hello Andy. I understand your points. As you can see (discussed below), I have now removed my proposal in the merge; the articles will be left as it is. The article update going on now is just mere cleanup and re-arrangement. Kind regards. Rehman⁽⁺⁾ 10:30, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Done

Hello. It seem that all key changes in the new version are complete; I believe any further changes can be done within the article namespace itself. I intend to update the article within a few hours. Please share your views. Kind regards. Rehman⁽⁺⁾ 13:36, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Looks much more organized and simple too. The only comment I have is in the disadvantage section below on this talk page where a summary of the unique problems that dams pose should be included as well.--NortyNort (talk) 14:05, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. Lets add that after we move it to the article namespace, as I dont exactly know how the history merge function works. :) Rehman⁽⁺⁾ 14:13, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

And per the comment above, I think it would be a good idea to wait a little in case other editors have input. Like those that made or worked on the articles you are about to delete.--NortyNort (talk) 14:26, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Seems reasonable. Would you agree if I carry out the task tomorrow same time? Also, just to clarify, the current article will not be deleted. I intend to request a history merge to save the edit history of both pages, or worse case, a simple cut-paste in a single edit. Rehman⁽⁺⁾ 14:36, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia doesn't specify a time (from what I can tell) but I usually wait three days between a discussion and major change. But like you said, it can be reversed. Side note: I will be out of pocket for a week or so but I want to expand that history section. I did a little work a few weeks ago.--NortyNort (talk) 15:03, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Will then carry out the move in about nine hours (to cover the above three-day waiting period) to see if anyone objects. Worse case, if anyone disagrees after the move, it can always be changed or reverted. Kind regards. Rehman⁽⁺⁾ 04:08, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

NO. I don't agree with the move. And the explanation here is not in line with the idea of having seperate article, for such seperate worthy subjects. --CyclePat (talk) 04:24, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Hi CyclePat. Actually, to be honest, I am too having second thoughts about this. Would you (or everyone, for that matter), agree if the new version be updated without turning the three other articles into a redirect? That wouldn't do any harm to any articles would it? Rehman⁽⁺⁾ 04:32, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

T<is water under the bridge... (meuh anyways). Well, this is after all an Encyclopedia... It wouldn't be that if we didn't "cycle" around the many subject matters, which are quite similar. POV though, etc... I don't even want to think about it. I'm just giving you my opinion. Do what you want... edit away. good luck! --CyclePat (talk) 02:28, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

4 Month Semi-Protection?

Any reason this page has been semi-protected for four months now? I will request it is unprotected unless someone know why it was protected indefinitely. Maybe I missed something...--NortyNort (talk) 21:02, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

Oh yes, let's fling open the doors and let the children play in the article again. Of the last 500 edits before protection, 138 of them used "revert" or "rv" in the edit description, which means that 55% at least of the preceding 500 edits were due to vandalism, not improving the article. But we Wikipedia editors are so numerous and energetic that we like nothing better than to increase our edit counts reverting Randy from Boise and his idiot cohorts. --Wtshymanski (talk) 21:36, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

... and in the 9 months covered by those 500 edits, 3 months were spent semi-protected. --Wtshymanski (talk) 21:50, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

Ok, no need for the emotion, I didn't know and that is why I brought it up for discussion.--NortyNort (talk) 22:08, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, Wiki admins are always sticking protection tags on articles for the hell of it, you were right to complain about this. And looking at the edit history for the reason for a protection tag is *such* a drag. After all, some anon from Outer Beluchistan can no longer inform us here on which of his class mates are gay. This is the encyclopedia that *anyone* can edit, after all. --Wtshymanski (talk) 03:51, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Got ya. I didn't watch this page too much back in February. Thanks for the insight, makes sense now.--NortyNort (talk) 13:56, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Relay setting error not a hydro problem

Much as I appreciate the instructions on how to make a little hole in both ends and suck the yolk out, a relay setting error is nothing to do with the hydroelectric nature of the plant. That's a problem with failure modes of large interconnected networks, a field of study still rich with opportunities for dissertations today. The '65 backout was no more a hydroelectric failure than the 2003 blackout. --Wtshymanski (talk) 03:51, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

I agree, just when I read the list and saw the context that blackouts were in "...failure to the dam itself, or the connections and substations,", I remembered the 65' black out.--NortyNort (talk) 13:45, 26 June 2010 (UTC)