Talk:Ignaz Moscheles

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Pronunciation[edit]

I would really like to know how to pronounce the name Moscheles. I guess some people say it as in French, like "Moschèles" (moSHELL). But is this right? It's an odd name - is it a transliteration or translation of some other name? Thoughts: Mošeleš (Czech style name - he was born in Prague) [unlikely and a bit contrived], something to do with "Moishe" (Jewish name - Moses) [more likely]?

Yes, this page [[1]] says it is from "Moishe". Well that's something but not how to pronounce it.

I suppose if there is a standard pronunciation then that should be here. (Personally I'd love to know more!) Philip Howard 14:11, 8 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

See article as edited today.--Smerus 07:54, 22 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure about the pronunciation of his first name "Ignaz". Ignaz is not a native German name, so the pronunciation of Z as [ts] is questionable. I've only heard it pronounced as [s]. --2.245.150.48 (talk) 18:00, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Composer project review[edit]

This article was given a Composer project B rating by a bot, since the Biography project had given it a B rating.

I find the B rating is not merited; for an article about a composer, there is much missing. My full review is on the comments page; questions and comments should be left here or on my talk page. Article is Start-class. Magic♪piano 14:28, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Méthode des méthodes de piano[edit]

Should mention be made of the above which he collaborated on with François-Joseph Fétis and included Chopin's Trois Nouvelles Études? Jubilee♫clipman 19:24, 30 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes of course, why not put it up?--Smerus (talk) 10:06, 1 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

'Works on Czech and Slavic themes'[edit]

There was no point to this section which listed three minor and little known works of the composer, did not explain ay way inwhich they were Czech or Slavic, and did not link in to or reflect any other section of the article. So I boldly deleted it.--Smerus (talk) 07:52, 5 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that is bold. Sorry I linked those two words now! I quite agree that some kind of explanation would be needed, but I'm not sure that any good English-language source is available. I'll keep looking, as I suspect that, even though only three minor works were listed, these influnces may have been significant for Moscheles himself. I'd be very wary of deleting anything just because it's (currently) "little known"! I hope someone more knowledgeable than me about Moscheles can help here. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:26, 5 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Have a look at the book by David Conway, cited in the article. (That's me by the way). It conains the most recent coverage of Moscheles in English, I think. Moscheles himself was alost entirely uninterested in 'Czech/Slavic music'; he saw himself as a disciple of Beethoven and the classical tradition. Having got out of Prague, he then spent his mature life between London and Leipzig. The pieces mentioned in the deleted paragraph are entirely trivial (in my opinion, for what it is worth), and I have not seen them referenced or mentioned in any other English-language (or German-language) studies. The pieces by Moscheles which survive are the piano concerti, the later piano studies and the Piano Trio. Best, --Smerus (talk) 14:51, 5 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, David. It seems that I am (we are) unlikely to find a more knowledgeable person than yourself to help with this article. So I'm very grateful, even though technically, of course, you have WP:COI. I don't doubt your appraisal. But two questions spring to my mind: 1. Why did he write those pieces at all? 2. Shouldn't any composer article try to include every piece written, even if all we have is the title and perhaps the date? Moscheles' output was not vast and so my view was "every little helps". Indeed, if we might even encourage a little-known piece to be brought back into the repertoir, surely that would be indeed a laudable achievement? Regards. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:14, 5 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I think the answers to your questions are:
  • He wrote them because he needed the money. Until Mendelssohn ensconced him in the Conservatoire at Leipzig, he took any source of income available, giving piano lessons, writing parlour music for the supplements of popular musical journals, etc. I would guess the pieces under consideration fall into this latter class.
  • Many composer articles have companion articles ,'List of compositions by XX'. These lists ought indeed to contain every item by the composer. The composer articles themsleves however should only contain references to important or significant pieces, otherwise they will get overwhelmed. As example, Felix Mendelssohn, and the article List of compositions by Felix Mendelssohn.
Best, --Smerus (talk) 21:41, 5 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Many thanks for those answers. Naturally (and usually to my cost) I find all these kinds of details fascinating and worthy of inclusion. You are quite right about the companion "List of Compositions", of course. Would such a list be of benefit here, I wonder? Martinevans123 (talk) 22:05, 5 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
A List of compositions by Ignaz Moscheles article would be great - but rather you than me at the moment as I'm tied up at Charles-Valentin Alkan (and hence of course your 'usually to my cost' comes into play :-}). Best, --Smerus (talk) 17:00, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
How sneaky is that. A little cowed by such an expert, I'll make no promises! Martinevans123 (talk) 18:27, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
But, looks like it's already been done: [2]? Martinevans123 (talk) 12:06, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Well now, all you have to do is to rework into the sort of format discussed here - shouldn't take more than a tea-break :-} --Smerus (talk) 12:12, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'll have to use my large teapot, and very judiciously, it seems. Those "handy guidelines" are only about 20 times bigger that the list! Martinevans123 (talk) 12:22, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
At least copying that one over, cited, would be a start? Martinevans123 (talk) 19:45, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know what the Wikipedia conventions are for copying/transcluding from IMSLP. The IMSLP site says 'Content is available under GNU Free Documentation License 1.3 or later'. Does that mean one can just copy it as long as one gives credit? There are probably some guidelines somewhere, but I'm never sure where to look.--Smerus (talk) 19:55, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
On a flash of brilliant inspiration, I looked up WP:GNU, where a header informs me that 'External content must be licensed under either both the Creative Commons Attribution-Share-Alike License and the GNU Free Documentation License, or just the Creative Commons Attribution-Share-Alike License. Transition clauses in GFDL 1.3 have now expired.' That seems to mean it's not on - I think. --Smerus (talk) 20:01, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
How wholly disappointing. To me this list lives in the "world of plain facts". I'd be surprised if no-one has tried to use IMSLP as a source before. How grim. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:22, 8 July 2013 (UTC) But maybe there's a good book, that has been written about Moscheles, that would surely contain an authoritative list of all his compositions?[reply]
There is no modern biography. I understand from Moscheles's g-g-gson Henry Roche that a major biography is now under way, but it won't be published for a year or two. There is a list of works in Grove, but it's not I think complete. Of course, if you were to use the list as a basis, left a few things out and included others (e.g. from Grove) , who would know? And you could cite some things from Charlotte's biography which are lost (e.g. piano duets, cantata). Just wondering..... --Smerus (talk) 07:15, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That sounds like a very good plan, David, sorry, Smerus. Many thanks for your helpful ideas here. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:37, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Or maybe not. Madmanbot helpfully suggests: "You can write a new article without infringing material. Note that simply modifying copyrighted text is not sufficient to avoid copyright infringement — it is best to write the article from scratch, using web pages or other publications as sources of facts, but not as sources of sentences or phrases." Well, these are rather essential "sentences or phrases" that could have been carefully constructed from a whole range of other "web pages or other publications". I'm not sure how one "writes the article from scratch" exactly. Even adding from other sources is unlikely to help. Presumably, to avoid a claim of copy-vio, each entry would need to be shown to be taken from a different source to IMSLP, and IMSLP could then be given credit for the items not found at any other source. That seems quite an arduous task. And IMSLP is now given as the sole source here anyway. Seems a bit of a paradox. So perhaps you'd care to boldly delete it. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:04, 10 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Well, it seems that good sense has prevailed, as someone has kindly removed the bot template. It is indeed "non-creative content". But I think converting into a sortable table would be very a good idea. Who knows, you might even want to stsrt one in a sandbox of yours, where other editors could drop by when they had a sleepless night to kill! Martinevans123 (talk) 11:29, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
!!@*@!!--Smerus (talk) 12:15, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Nice collection of Moscheles-related face-palms! Just need to get them into a sortable table! lol. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:23, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

family[edit]

One of his sons was named Felix Stone Moscheles (maybe named after his friend Felix Mendelssohn?- a thought.) Anyhow, Felix, also a musician, died December 22, 1917 at Tunbridge Wells, aged 85, (born February 8, 1833) according to his obituary in the February 1, 1918 Musical Times, page 68 (accessible via Google Books.) Schissel | Sound the Note! 14:13, 22 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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Assessment comment[edit]

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Ignaz Moscheles/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Comment(s)Press [show] to view →
==Composers Project Assessment of Ignaz Moscheles: 2009-01-13==

This is an assessment of article Ignaz Moscheles by a member of the Composers project, according to its assessment criteria. This review was done by Magicpiano.

If an article is well-cited, the reviewer is assuming that the article reflects reasonably current scholarship, and deficiencies in the historical record that are documented in a particular area will be appropriately scored. If insufficient inline citations are present, the reviewer will assume that deficiencies in that area may be cured, and that area may be scored down.

Adherence to overall Wikipedia standards (WP:MOS, WP:WIAGA, WP:WIAFA) are the reviewer's opinion, and are not a substitute for the Wikipedia's processes for awarding Good Article or Featured Article status.

===Origins/family background/studies=== Does the article reflect what is known about the composer's background and childhood? If s/he received musical training as a child, who from, is the experience and nature of the early teachers' influences described?

  • ok

===Early career=== Does the article indicate when s/he started composing, discuss early style, success/failure? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed?

  • short on composing details

===Mature career=== Does the article discuss his/her adult life and composition history? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed?

  • short on composing details

===List(s) of works=== Are lists of the composer's works in WP, linked from this article? If there are special catalogs (e.g. Köchel for Mozart, Hoboken for Haydn), are they used? If the composer has written more than 20-30 works, any exhaustive listing should be placed in a separate article.

  • Works list is summarized, not enumerated.

===Critical appreciation=== Does the article discuss his/her style, reception by critics and the public (both during his/her life, and over time)?

  • Performances are described; musicological, critical, and popular commentary on his compositions is limited.

===Illustrations and sound clips=== Does the article contain images of its subject, birthplace, gravesite or other memorials, important residences, manuscript pages, museums, etc? Does it contain samples of the composer's work (as composer and/or performer, if appropriate)? (Note that since many 20th-century works are copyrighted, it may not be possible to acquire more than brief fair use samples of those works, but efforts should be made to do so.) If an article is of high enough quality, do its images and media comply with image use policy and non-free content policy? (Adherence to these is needed for Good Article or Featured Article consideration, and is apparently a common reason for nominations being quick-failed.)

  • One image; article needs more. No sound.

===References, sources and bibliography=== Does the article contain a suitable number of references? Does it contain sufficient inline citations? (For an article to pass Good Article nomination, every paragraph possibly excepting those in the lead, and every direct quotation, should have at least one footnote.) If appropriate, does it include Further Reading or Bibliography beyond the cited references?

  • Article has few independent sources; no inline citations.

===Structure and compliance with WP:MOS=== Does the article comply with Wikipedia style and layout guidelines, especially WP:MOS, WP:LEAD, WP:LAYOUT, and possibly WP:SIZE? (Article length is not generally significant, although Featured Articles Candidates may be questioned for excessive length.)

  • Lead should be longer; pronunciation should be given in the lead.

===Things that may be necessary to pass a Good Article review===

  • Article requires more inline citations (WP:CITE)
  • Article lead needs work (WP:LEAD)
  • Article needs (more) images and/or other media (MOS:IMAGE)
  • Article prose needs work (WP:MOS) (copyediting)

===Summary=== This article is a somewhat interesting read. As a bio of a composer, it is somewhat inadequate. We get a pretty good picture of his personal and professional life, but only a very superficial treatment of his composing. It is hard to tell when he started, what his major works (either most popular or most musicologically important) are, when they were written, how they were received, and so on. (I acknowledge that he was likely better known for his other activities; however, the above described material is not really mentioned at all, and it should be.)

The article's sources are also troubling: there is no real third-party material presented as a reference; see Alma problem for an example of why this is a problem.

The article also suffers some structural flaws; no/few inline citations, more images, inadequate lead. However, the missing factual gap is more severe: articles that are missing large things like this get Start ratings. Magic♪piano 14:25, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Last edited at 14:31, 13 January 2009 (UTC). Substituted at 18:45, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

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