Talk:In My Time of Dying

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What is this supposed to mean?[edit]

"Meanwhile, the distinctive, powerful drumming sounds of John Bonham were recorded in the same way as those on the track "When the Levee Breaks" from Led Zeppelin's fourth album." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.24.72.85 (talk) 22:19, 25 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"recorded in the same way" is very vague

they recorded it in the open stairwell of a (four-story?) apartment building; bonham set up his drum kit on the ground floor and they recorded the part with the acoustics of the enclosed space. -- swizardofoz —Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.180.14.55 (talk) 14:00, 10 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Dylan cover[edit]

Quick question; how could Bob Dylan cover this song and release it in 1962? Is this just badly worded?

Not true[edit]

In my time of dying' is a song made from the other one "Jesus gonna make up my dying bed". It's a traditionall american gospel-religious tune, only arranged by Led Zeppelin and earlier by Dylan. First records I found on the topic was that it was sang by Joshua White (1930's 1940's). The same thing's with "The house of the rising sun" and "Fixin' to die". These are traditional american folk songs.

Covers[edit]

Also, Black Label Society have covered it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by NeF (talk • contribs) 00:53, 11 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, as far as I know, Zakk only recorded it with Pride & Glory, not BLS. 12.217.230.194 20:51, 3 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
there's also a cover by the white stripes 129.132.211.180 (talk) 15:12, 17 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Not technically a cover, but the distinctive riff is evident on the soundtracks of two songs on the soundtracks of Cowboy Bebop and Trigun, both of which are performed by Tsuneo Imahori. Worth mentioning? Radical AdZ (talk) 14:58, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Martin Gore of Depeche Mode has covered it, on his solo album Counterfeit2.

I'm not sure if we are talking covers in general or covers directly inspired by the Led Zeppelin version; is it worthwhile creating a section just for different versions of this song? Or is that considered minutiae? There's an excellent rendition by the Be Good Tanyas on their 2003 album Chinatown. Oneandtwoand (talk) 20:59, 7 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Bonham's cough at the end[edit]

I do not believe that was a feigned cough. Bonham, I believe, was a smoker; and most likely after all that drumming and believe you me man, that song had a TON of it. He was most likely barking his head off trying to recover! LOL!

And Plant most likely just added that "cough" lyric in, on the fly, as they say.

Just a thought.

K8cpa (talk) 16:13, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Removing LZ credit[edit]

Richhoncho, interesting choice. Some would argue (not me) that the Writer field include those identified by PROs. Shouldn't the ISWC number in the infobox that identifies Page, Plant, etc., be removed also? —Ojorojo (talk) 21:49, 26 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The removal of credits sets a dangerous precedent. Is Wikipedia an encyclopaedia or simply a personal blog? Legally the Led Zeppelin song is credited Page/Plant/Jones/Bonham. No court or legal body has said otherwise. 212.66.32.246 (talk) 05:35, 27 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It is impossible for somebody to write a song which was previously in existence. In My Time of Dying was around before any of LZ were born. There are a number of examples at here - some of which include LZ recorded songs. The correct (and legal situation) is that this song is a song out of copyright and anybody recording it can either make a new arrangement (which LZ) did) or copy an existing arrangement. The correct term, in this case, is "Traditional, arranged by Page/Plant/Jones/Bonham." Arrangement is not songwriting, that is why I removed the songwriting accreditation. The PROs will list Page etc as songwriters because they are entitled to 50% of the songwriting royalties as ARRANGERS of a public domain song, not as songwriters of that song. What the actually internal listing at the PROs say will be different, i.e. the $% due to each writer is NOT public knowledge. If the song infobox had a field for arranger, I would have moved Page etc to that field. I would not be adverse to "Traditional, arranged by Page etc." inserted, but let's stick to the truth that can be discerned, shall we? NB I'll deal with the ISWC number separately.--Richhoncho (talk) 07:54, 27 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
We need to be careful when making statements about legality. Copyright law is a highly specialized and arcane field. For WP purposes, only reliable sources that specifically discuss the copyright aspects of a song should be used to make "legal" statements. That said,
  • LZ obviously has made a claim of copyright by filing the necessary paperwork. However, this does not extinguish the possible rights of others. They also filed for "Lemon Song", "Whole Lotta Love", etc., and years later they were successfully challenged.
  • PROs are not based on copyrights – many older songs that apparently were never copyrighted have been registered in someone's name (and sometimes not the original/earlier performer).
  • For many years, Robert Johnson's songs were believed to be in the public domain or out-of-copyright. However, in 2000, the court ruled that the copyrights belong to his estate ("ABKCO Music v. Stephen LaVere". U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit. June 26, 2000.), thus they were never PD or out-of-copyright (they can't go back and forth).
  • Wording should not be used unless found in RSs. Otherwise, it would be OR or SYNTH.
At this point, it would be better to use something neutral in the Writer field.
—Ojorojo (talk) 15:25, 27 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure there is any discrepancy between what you say and what I said, the LZ credit for the song is on an assumed Public Domain status of the song, not something I'd disagree with on a TalkPage. BTW Yes, Copyright law is extremely complex, especially it's interpretation! --Richhoncho (talk) 17:20, 27 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Attempts to add prog rock to infobox[edit]

Since at least 2015, various IPs have been attempting to add progressive rock as a genre to the Led Zeppelin infobox, without supplying a reliable source:

Users Progrockdude (talk · contribs) and Progggy (talk · contribs) have also attempted to add unsourced genres; all have been reverted (and a couple blocked) by various editors. (Numerous other blocked users and sockpuppets have also attempted to add or edit content).

The latest attempts have added a progressive rock fansite Progarchy as a source based on a posting by a contributor.[1] The only relevant material is (highlighted in green):

Zeppelin’s repertoire only became more progressive after the immense success of IV. Houses of the Holy featured two more Tolkien-inspired songs: the folk-rock Over the Hills and Far Away, and the haunting No Quarter. Physical Graffiti not only featured their longest song (In My Time of Dying, eleven minutes), but also perhaps their greatest one: Kashmir, one of the finest progressive rock songs ever composed. Backed by an orchestra, Plant, Page, Bonham, and Jones unleashed in this full scale epic of travels in a far off land, a theme explored by progressive rock groups past and present. Their next album, Presence, although perhaps their weakest ...

There is some question as to whether Progarchy should be considered a reliable source for WP purposes. However, as was pointed out in a discussion at WT:ALBUMS#Progarchy (in which none of the IPs participated), the source doesn't actually say that "In My Time of Dying" is progressive rock, only that it is "their longest song". The article only discusses "Kashmir" as a prog rock from Physical Graffiti. In the article, several songs are identified as being different genres, including folk-rock, metal, blues, traditional folk, "standard" rock, folk, "math rock", and notes that claiming "Carouselambra" is prog rock "may be a stretch to some". So, the mere mention of a song in the article does not automatically mean that it is progressive rock.

The latest attempt also removed a reliably sourced genre without any explanation or justification. The source, Martin Popoff, a well-known author of several rock biographies, including Led Zeppelin: All the Albums, All the Songs, Expanded Edition and the prog rockers Yes and Rush, writes:

Across the song's [Carouselambra's] 10:28 (making it the second longest Zeppelin tune, after "In My Time of Dying") are many parts, none progressive on their own, but which together comprise more of an artsy prog rock track than a hard rock monster like "Achilles" or "In My Time of Dying." [p. 218]

Popoff also describes "In My Time of Dying" as "one of the heaviest possible Zeppelin tracks of this breed [songs adapted from traditional blues] that links to the British blues boom. [p. 149]" This is consistent with the other sources used in the article that describe the song as blues-based rather than progressive rock.

The bottom line is: reliably sourced genres should not be removed without good cause (as actually discussed on the talk page) or genres added without reliable sources that specifically state them.

—Ojorojo (talk) 15:51, 12 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Additional IPs continue to re-add progressive rock with a source that does not support it (warnings posted to their talk pages):
—Ojorojo (talk) 14:23, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You are nitpicking that article. The article is clearly about prog in Led Zeppelin songs, and the songs cited in the article support that theme, including this song in question. You seem to want to crown yourself the arbiter of what sources are reliable vs. unreliable. The source is one that has written several compelling articles, including this one. Your "hard rock" genre edit was accidentally removed and then restored. That is not disputed. Stop attempting to use that as part of your argument. This dispute is over an expertly written piece in a reliable and popular source vs. your personal opinion of both, the source itself, and the genre of the song. Your personal opinion does not trump a professionally written editorial, as much as you apparently think it does. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 223.24.185.241 (talk) 03:11, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Untrue: the article mentions several songs in passing that it describes as being other than progressive rock (or "PR"). In fact, it specifically adds "progressive" to the description of "the powerful (and progressive) Achilles Last Stand" [it uses italics for song titles], but does not do so for "the catchy rocker Nobody’s Fault But Mine". If all the songs mentioned are PR, pointing it out for "Achilles" would not be necessary.
This is not my personal opinion, but is based on the sources. Also, the idea that PR applies to "Kashmir" and not "In My Time of Dying" was voiced by another editor at WT:ALBUMS.[2] However, the edits made by the various IPs listed above are clearly pushing their own opinions usually without any sources, leading to 69.125.34.60 being blocked for "unsourced or unhelpful edits". The last series of IP edits and reverts began just minutes after 69... was blocked and has the appearance of a block evasion.
So much has been written about Led Zeppelin that if "In My Time of Dying" is seen as PR, more writers would also describe it as such. Again, "Martin Popoff, a well-known author of several rock biographies, including Led Zeppelin: All the Albums, All the Songs, Expanded Edition and the prog rockers Yes and Rush") specifically describes it in different terms. Obviously, he is familiar with LZ and PR, yet chooses to identify "In My Time of Dying" as a "hard rock monster" that "links to the British blues boom". As a well-known music writer who has published dozens of books and articles, he clearly is an "established subject-matter expert, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications".
Again, genres or any other material, should not be added to WP articles unless it is clearly supported by a reliable source. WP:CONTEXTMATTERS includes:

Each source must be carefully weighed to judge whether it is reliable for the statement being made in the Wikipedia article and is an appropriate source for that content ... Sources should directly support (See WP:INLINECITE and WP:inline citation) the information as it is presented in the Wikipedia article." [emphasis in original]

Wikipedia:Dispute resolution requests (a WP:POLICY) outlines how disputes are handled.
—Ojorojo (talk) 15:04, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The two-week page protection ended 2 December. An additional IP has re-added prog rock with the same source:

—Ojorojo (talk) 18:25, 8 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

During the RfC (see below), IPs continued to add prog rock with the same ref:

The article now has three-month page protection ending 5 April.

—Ojorojo (talk) 17:57, 15 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

RfC on progressive rock[edit]

Should "progressive rock" be listed as a genre for Led Zeppelin's version of "In My Time of Dying"? —Ojorojo (talk) 16:14, 8 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • No The proposed Progarchy website source does not clearly support "progressive rock". The only sentence in which the song is mentioned is "Physical Graffiti [album] not only featured their longest song (In My Time of Dying, eleven minutes), but also perhaps their greatest one: Kashmir, one of the finest progressive rock songs ever composed." [source uses italics for both album and song titles]. The source identifies different genres for several other songs, so merely being named does not mean that they are all progressive rock.
Two full pages are devoted to the song in Led Zeppelin: All the Albums, All the Songs, Expanded Edition, in which it is described as blues-based hard rock and heavy metal. [pp. 148–149, 218] The author, Martin Popoff, is a well-known author of several rock biographies, including the progressive rock groups Yes and Rush. He is obviously familiar with Led Zeppelin and progressive rock and identifies some of their songs as progressive rock, but not "In My Time of Dying". —Ojorojo (talk) 16:14, 8 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • No – Based on the two sources provided and the reasoning of Ojorojo. The book Led Zeppelin: All the Albums, All the Songs, Expanded Edition by Martin Popoff is a much more reliable source than the Progarchy article. Popoff states on pg. 218:
Across the song's ["Carouselambra"] 10:28 (making it the second longest Zepplin tune, after "In My Time of Dying") are many parts, none progressive on their own, but which together comprise more of an artsy prog rock track than a hard rock monster like "Achilles" or "In My Time of Dying".
Therefore, Popoff considers "In My Time of Dying" a "hard rock monster" and not a "prog rock track". Also, as Ojorojo mentions nowhere does the Polyarchy article clearly state that "In My Time of Dying" is a progressive rock track. Willing to change my position if a quality reliable sources is presented that says that the song is a progressive rock track. --Guest2625 (talk) 13:06, 9 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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