Talk:International Brigades/Archive 1

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Archive 1

on personalities including Orwell (who were or were not in the brigades)

I have taken the step of removing a para in the introductions which read:

Many important artists and writers were in Spain at the time, including W.H. Auden and George Orwell. Ernest Hemingway also was there as a war reporter for the NANA, and spent time on the front line -- see For Whom the Bell Tolls, as well as André Malraux (l'Espoir), or Simone Weil.

I am not 100% certain, but I think that not one of these people were in the international brigades. Orwell, of course, was with the POUM; Hemingway was a journalist; Malraux a pilot. Weil with the CNT as I understand it, and was Auden at the front at all?

If other people feel strongly about having a focal para on celebrities at the beginning of the article, maybe someone should write one about actual members. I would argue:

- The issue of artist and writer involvement is certainly of interest, but it is dealt with on the main spanish civil war page where famous names are mentioned. Or perhaps there is a rationale for a dedicated page on artistic impact of the war?

- There is a section on personalities anyway further down.

- Personally I think - why do we need such a focus on a cult of celebrity when we talk about these volunteers? The vast majority of them, in the IBs and in the militias, were ordinary working class people willing to fight and die for their beliefs. Do they need glorifying with the names of writers and artists? --Bengalski 19:06, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

Apolônio de Carvalho

It is not referred to IB members of portuguese or brazilian origins. Concerning Brazil approximately 20 citizens from brazilian origin would have rejoined the IB with in particular Apolônio de Carvalho (see http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apol%C3%B4nio_de_Carvalho) What about portuguese ? Is there some information, files about them ? Thank you for your answer

--81.255.121.101 11:01, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Added additional info on the main nationalities and the mixed brigades--68.32.11.74 20:30, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Dates

How come the year is missing in the dates in this article ? Hmmm.... When did this happen ? -- PFHLai 04:33, 2004 Oct 14 (UTC)

Usually, the year is mentionned in the beginning of a section and the dates refer to this year. I though mentionning the year for every instance would be somewhat "heavy"... but you're free to correct this if you think it's necessary. Rama 05:54, 14 October 2004 (UTC)

Sculpture

I'd like to put something on the sculpture by Ian Walters in London that reads:

"They went because their open eyes could see no other way" Should it go on this page, or elsewhere? Mark Richards 21:10, 8 March 2005 (UTC)

I think this certainly has its place on the page. Now, the question of where ("Status of the Brigades after the war" or a new section ?), I'll leave it to your imagination ! :) Do you have a photograph of the statue ? Rama 21:26, 8 March 2005 (UTC)

Orwell

I see that Orwell is listed as being "involved" with the International Brigade - I'm not an expert, but his personal page says that he was in the POUM, which while not "the other side", was certainly another side (and, in fact, I don't know if he would have fought against the Brigade in Barcelona or not.) Should he be listed on this page? (anonymous coward) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.194.69.233 (talk) 04:33, 29 October 2004 (UTC)

I was thinking the same thing. Yes, he was with the POUM which is not related to the International Brigade. --Tothebarricades.tk 03:26, 31 October 2004 (UTC)

Good point ! Rama 07:46, 31 October 2004 (UTC)

Orwell would not have been involved in the failed Trotskist uprising In Barcelona as he had already been invalided home after being wounded in action against Italian troops. Although not a member of the brigades he certainly deserves mention as a volunteer for liberty Redvark 11:00, 15 November 2004 (GMT)

Orwell was indeed caught up in the May fighting, after partially recovering from his wounds; the second half of Homage to Catalonia is an account of the disturbance, his escape, and a criticism of attempts in most socialist publications to portray the conflict in Barcelona as a failed Trotskyist uprising (and, really, whoever you support, the real conflict was between the communists/government and anarchists).--Djmit44 21:00, 13 February 2005 (UTC)

Orwell keeps coming in and out of this article... we really should do something about it ! Perhaps a section "personalities who were NOT in the Brigades" ? :D Rama 19:26, 4 April 2005 (UTC)

Sweeping Statement

"Since the fall of the Soviet bloc, the International Brigades have been quite unanimously regarded as anti-Fascist heroes, and the legitimacy of their fight has, for the most part, washed away the stain of summary executions and Stalinist manipulation"

Oh, that's so rich. Says who? Bit of an opinion there, eh? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Easyv (talk • contribs) 01:07, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Pact?

Hitler-Stalin Pact or Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact? Hitler-Stalin Pact betrays some bias, doesn't it? It mainly is used by Historians with a certain anti-communist political stance. --84.195.233.101 17:50, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Battle of jarama section

Just a little comment: the goal of this battle was not to capture the madrid-andalusia road. It was capturing the madrid-valencia road the aim that the nationalist rebels were looking for. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 193.146.50.254 (talk) 11:37, 15 February 2007 (UTC).Don severo 11:41, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

The whole Jarama piece is lopsided, too much focus on the British and Lincoln battalions. It needs re-writing really.Roger 09:28, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

"National representation" section

I've been thinking further about Hestemand's comment in English?. Probably the best way forward is to tabulate the information from different sources by nationality. I've started a new article for this International Brigades data (which in the fullness of time can also include national breakdowns of casualties etc). Roger 06:08, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Now updated, with refs from Thomas' 4th ed. The new layout will make it easier to add data. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Roger Davies (talk • contribs) 09:31, 27 April 2007 (UTC).

Now updated, with refs from Thomas' 4th ed. The new layout will make it easier to add data.(unsigned earlier, blush) Roger 09:32, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

English?

The Nationality section refers to "English" volunteers. I'm not being funny here but should this be "British"? Or have the Welsh, Scots and N. Irish been accounted for elsewhere?

Roger 12:23, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Don't count on anything from the nationality section; it's a mess. We really need sources to support those numbers. Until recently it was claimed that 10,000 Scandinavians took part, which is utter nonsense. Please do correct if you have sources. Cheers, Hestemand 12:33, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreed about the sources. I have a fair number of books here. I'll have a rummage. Roger 20:38, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

[Later ...] I've found this (the source for the figures is André Marty, who should know, I suppose):

Of the estimated 53 nations from which volunteers came, the largest contingent was the French, about 9,000. There were also up to 5,000 Germans and Austrians, 3,000 Poles, 3,000 Italians, 2,800 Americans, 1,800 British, 1,600 Belgians, 1,660 Yugoslavs and 1,500 Czechoslovakians.(11) Even inside the different contingents there was often a wide range of nationalities. The US contingent was made up of volunteers from 35 different national groups. Of 1,448 Canadians who went to Spain there were at least 14 different ethnic groups represented and 498 were of Eastern European origin. Jews were particularly prominent in the International Brigades, making up between 30 to 40 percent of US volunteers and between 3,000 and 7,000 of the International Brigaders as a whole. There were 81 Afro-Americans in the Abraham Lincoln Battalion, nearly all of them Communists, and for the first time in US military history a black officer, Oliver Law, led white troops into battle.(12) [[1]]

Exceptionally interesting piece I thought. We could do with some of that command of the subject and scholarship here!

Roger 22:08, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

It's good to see that our Canadians also took part in the fight against nationalists in Spain. This little contribution on the side of the good and reason (like always), is certainly incorporated in the celebration of Remembrance Day. Regards, cheers;24.86.110.10 (talk) 23:13, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

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BetacommandBot (talk) 10:56, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Nationalities

Isn't it strange that Russians/citizens of the USSR aren't mentioned there? --Bicycle repairman 16:21, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Rectified Roger 09:26, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

In his book "The age of extremes", Eric Hobsbawm states that there were at least 5000 Soviets fighting for the IB (although we still don't know how many of them went there voluntarily, he adds).

I also have further doubts about the numbers in the "nationalities" section. "Scandinavian" is not a nationality in any way. Second, the number 10.000 must be a mistake, given the fact that Sweeden, the biggest scandinavian country, sent only 500 volunteers, according to the List_of_Swedes_who_died_in_the_Spanish_Civil_War article —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.254.36.183 (talk) 12:10, 6 January 2007 (UTC).

Only about 500 Danes went as well, of which half fell [2]. So, that's 1000 Scandinavians accounted for. That leaves quite a number for the Norwegians, but according to the Norwegian Wiki "only" 100 Norwegians died fighting for the brigades. The 10,000 count seems completely unfounded. -- Hestemand 16:16, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm also dubious about the nearly 1000 Irish, and have asked for clarification on the wiki page linked. I suggest if no POV source can be found, that this is removed from this page 158.42.250.70 (talk) 18:40, 21 January 2008 (UTC) .

How many International Brigade Veterans are left from the Spanish Civil War???

Very interested to know, how many of these veterans are still with us today? I imagine the youngest would be about 95, or perhaps there'd be a handful younger than that. But surely most of them would be fast approaching 100 - and there as such probably wouldn't be many left?

Does anyone know?202.139.104.226 (talk) 08:44, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Seeing that there wasn't anything like neraly complete record-keeping or an over-arching post war organisation - what with an estimated 50-or-so-nations, the question is all but unanswerable, really. Ingolfson (talk) 10:58, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Communism?

Why is this considered part of the "Communism" series? FFS

I don't know. It certainly shouldn't have the huge Communism template plastered all over it. Roger 09:29, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I've removed the {{Communism}} template and replaced it with the Spanish Civil War Campaign Box. The latter seems more relevant and significantly less POV. Roger 15:50, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

This is part of communism because many of the International brigades where communists, even where not organised by the Soviet Union (which most where, once the effort really got underway). Communism also used their example as a major propaganda tool. However I do agree that the comunism box was misplaced. Ingolfson (talk) 11:03, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Other international volunteers

There should be mention of the tens of thousands from around the world who fought for the Franco forces, against the Stalinist government of "Free Spain"-and won. For instance, the Irish Brigade of over 700. [[3]] It is interesting how the Spanish Civil war seems to be the only one whose history has been written by the losers.68.224.206.168 (talk) 15:47, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

No, there should not be mention of Fascists or their ilk. This article is about a specific group of international volunteers called the International Brigades. If you want an article about these others, write it yourself, if there are adequate sources. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 15:52, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

You surely aren't saying the winning revolutionists and their international allies, who stopped the Catholic genocide in Stalin's "Free Spain" were all fascists? Here is an excellent book, Fighting For Franco,[4] which chronicles the global volunteers who helped overthrew the genocidal regime supported by the Communist International Brigade-many of whose members were later "eaten by their own". 68.224.206.168 (talk) 19:27, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

That is absolutely immaterial to the current article. This article is about those who fought in the International Brigades on the side of the Republic, whether they were Stalinist, Trotskyist, anarchist, etc. Those who fought for Franco, whatever their stripe, do not belong. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 23:47, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Ken Loach

The article says "Ken Loach is not sympathetic to the brigades", which is a complete nonsense. Loach is a socialist, of course he's "sympathetic" to th IB. The film in question, Land and Freedom, is critical of the Stalinists, manipulated from Moscow, who controlled and distorted the efforts of the Republicans - he's not critical of the fighters or the idea itself.

But Ken Loach portrays the IB as Stalinists. Do you consider that "sympathetic". He portrays POUM are heroes and IB/PSUC as traitors. --Soman 08:00, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

No, the point is that the idealism of the IB was manipulated by Stalinists in the Republican government. This is a criticism of the policies of Stalin and Moscow, not of the International Brigade or their fighters, whom the film clearly shows as heroes. --Kingcal 5 April 2006

Do they? In general IB are not given very much prominence in the movie at all. One of the few scenes that actually show IB soliders is the one at the bar in Barcelona, were English-speaking IB soldier talk bad about the militias. The notion that IB were manipulated morons is hardly a sympathetic portrayal. --Soman 09:40, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

It's not a matter of being "manipulated morons". Most of the people who fought in the IB followed the line from Moscow because they believed the SU to be the only socialist state in the world. They followed the line because they thought it would lead them to victory, not because they were stupid. --Kingcal 14:46, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm the person who first put Ken Loach on to this page, in the context of his film 'Land and Freedom'. Whatever the truth of the situation was, the film certainly portrays the International Brigades and the Communist Party as on the wrong side (the main character describes the Party as "evil and corrupt" I think). --Apeloverage 13:18, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

The International Brigades, once they were firmly under the control of the Stalinist/Soviet Communists, is what Loach's film takes issue with... not the International Brigades, per se. It seems as though the film has been misunderstood. Pinkville (talk) 18:27, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Also, Loach attacks the leadership of the Communist Party-controlled forces, not the international volunteers themselves. The various comments in this article about Loach's film seriously misrepresent it. Pinkville (talk) 18:36, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Battle of Guadalajara section

Provided citation to incident where opposing Italian combatants stumbled across one another without realising. NZHistory Teacher (talk) 02:39, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Battle of Madrid section

Changed “The role of the International Brigades in this victory was generally recognised and sometimes even exaggerated. For instance, the British Ambassador, Sir Henry Childon, declared that there were no Spaniards in the army which had defended Madrid; in fact, all but 3,000 of the 40,000 Republican troops in the city were Spanish.[citation needed] to “The role of the International Brigades in this victory was generally recognised, but was exaggerated by Comintern propaganda, so that the outside world heard only of their victories, and not those of Spanish units. So successful was such propaganda that the British Ambassador, Sir Henry Chilton, declared that there were no Spaniards in the army which had defended Madrid. The International Brigade forces that fought in Madrid arrived after other successful Republican fighting. Of the 40 000 Republican troops in the city, the foreign troops numbered less than 3 000. Beevor. (1982) ‘’The Spanish Civil War’’, p 137; Anderson (2003) ‘’The Spanish Civil War: A History and Reference Guide’’, p 59. NZHistory Teacher (talk) 02:41, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

"Premature anti-fascists" is a myth

And a self-serving one, at that. There has not been a single citation of this term being in official US parlance, or having any relevance at all, except in the memoirs of (usually) American communists who merely repeat it as a meme. Notice any citation of it does not reference anything but itself. Oh, and that little "citation" listed in the article doesn't even exist anymore. 98.157.96.133 (talk) 14:36, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Discussion by noted scholars of American communism Harvey Klehr and John Earl Haynes. [5] [6] 98.157.96.133 (talk) 14:44, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

People's Olympiad

Weren't some of the foreign athletes gathered in Barcelona for the People's Olympiad among the first recruits? --Error (talk) 01:49, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Any chance of someone adding a photo of the memorial in Edinburgh?

There is a memorial to the Scottish Brigade in East Princes Street Gardens.

Can anyone get a phot added?--Stephencdickson (talk) 13:36, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Orwell was not a Stalinist dupe/IB member

I have deleted the claim of Orwell being associated with the International "Brigades," which were more often than not actually of battalion strength. Even the name is a duplicitous misrepresentation of the reality here.

Miasnikov (talk) 04:52, 4 September 2009 (UTC) miasnikov Miasnikov (talk) 04:52, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Calling the International Brigade members "Stalinist dupes" is a bit disrespectful, no? --Mrdie (talk) 18:10, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Disrespectful? No-quite accurate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.224.206.219 (talk) 01:09, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't recall anybody asking for your opinion you fascist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.33.171.162 (talk) 01:35, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

They weren't exactly all fighting with the image of Stalin in their minds (unless you count some Comintern members and Soviet persons). As far as they saw it (and I don't see how it's particularly controversial), they fought to defend a capitalistic Republic against a fascist or fascist-like rebellion. People whose ideologies ranged from politically moderate to communist participated in the Brigades. Using this logic I could call Orwell a "Trotskyite dupe" since by his own admission in Homage he knew very little about the differences between the CNT-FAI, PCE, PSUC, PSOE, UGT, POUM, etc. He just winded up around the latter most party and learned accordingly—from the POUM position. As he would say later, "Actually I've given a more sympathetic account of the POUM 'line' than I actually felt, because I always told them they were wrong and refused to join the party." (George Orwell. George Orwell: An Age Like This, 1920-1940 Vol. 1. Boston, Mass.: David R. Godine. 2000. p. 366.)--Mrdie (talk) 07:37, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Nazi Flag?

Useing the Nazi flag in the table for the German members of the International Brigades seems to be really wrong, doesn't it? Calistemon (talk) 19:01, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

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Cordoban front

Article mentions a December 1936 Republican attack on Cordoban front, but according to what I've read Lopera was taken by the Nationalists from 27-29 Dec 1936. The Republican action sounds more like a defence, or a counterattack. (http://usuarios.multimania.es/antoniomarinlopera/guerra.htm)

Dhyandeva (talk) 20:55, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Flag

Is the flag depicted on this page one that was used during the war, or is it a modern combination of two designs: the three-cornered star & the flag of the Spanish Republic? --Apeloverage 13:21, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

The latter I think. Roger 06:16, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Removed [[Image:Flag of the International Brigades.svg|thumb|right|200px|Flag of the International Brigades.]] as it is of dubious historical provenance (very pretty though :). Replaced it with the IB star. Roger 15:55, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I've removed it too! Hopefully this won't lead to a revert war. --Apeloverage 11:40, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I believe the Canadian flag is wrong. Heavenlyblue (talk) 06:39, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

NKVD

NKVD is mentioned only once. What did NKVD in Spain?Xx234 (talk) 09:15, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

[7] Xx234 (talk) 09:18, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

[8]Xx234 (talk) 09:19, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Nordahl Grieg ?

According to his biography the writer supported the IB but hasn't visited Spain. The section should be described more precisely, maybe divided into several parts - soldiers, eyewitnesses, remote supporters.Xx234 (talk) 07:00, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

GRU

GRU also influenced the Brigades.[9]Xx236 (talk) 06:29, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

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Soviet citizens in IB

Hello, I have removed "Soviet Union" from the table which lists countries of origin of the IB volunteers. Both references quoted (Thomas and Beevor) refer to Soviet advisers, officially sent by the USRR. They served as such, though some might have temporarily commanded IB units. In the Soviet Union there was no volunteering to IB at all and actually „Soviet citizens were not permitted to volunteer for service”, Michael Jackson (1994), Fallen sparrows. The International Brigades and the Spanish Civil War, ISBN 9780871692122, p. 66. Regards, --89.76.22.216 (talk) 08:23, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

Mediatech492 has reverted the above falsely claiming that my edit is "unexplained content removal". All explanation is above. Reverting to my original edit. Regards, --89.76.22.216 (talk) 18:55, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

They were in the IB, it is irrelevant whether or not they were volunteers. Your removal has no validity in the context you gave. Mediatech492 (talk) 15:37, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Hello, Mediatech492. The question is whether Soviet citizens serving in Spain were members of the International Brigades. Please provide any source which claims they were. On basis of the literature available and quoted I claim that they were not members of IB, but they served as Soviet military on official duty service. Whether they volunteered or not is secondary, irrelevant, and actually impossible to tell. Reverting back to my original edit. Regards, --89.76.22.216 (talk) 14:03, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

Your own quote above says that they "commanded IB units". Your own assertion disproves itself. Mediatech492 (talk) 15:38, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

Hello, Mediatech492.

No, my quotation by no means claims that Soviet military personnel were members of IB. International Brigades volunteers were people who volunteered to join the International Brigades. Soviet citizens, who periodically commanded some IB units, were career military men serving in the Red Army. They were carefully picked up by appropriate army structures (though there might have been an element of volunteering) and sent to Spain as part of the Soviet military contingent (and not as members of IB). They remained members of the Soviet military staff, they were paid regular salary and they were entitled to leave. They performed various roles: advisers, staff officers, engineers. At times they were assigned to command combat units, including IB ones. This does not render them “international brigades volunteers”. And if one wants to apply the “IB volunteer” category very flexibly, bend the logic and count them in, they should be counted as 30, not 3,000 ("altogether thirty Soviet officers were sent to Spain as commanders in the International Brigades”, Anthony Beevor, The Battle for Spain, London 2006, ISBN 9781101201206, p. 162).

Also:

„The Soviet Union publicly supported the idea of the International Brigades yet refused to allow its own citizens to volunteer” (Michael W. Jackson, Fallen Sparrows: The International Brigades in the Spanish Civil War, Washington 1994, ISBN 9780871692122, p. 84)
“People's Commissars of the Soviet Union duly passed a decree prohibiting Soviet citizens from proceeding to Spain” (Soviet Union Political Reports, 1917-1970: 1934-1945, 2004, ISBN 9781840970609, p. 401)
“Soviet Government had laid out stringent restrictions on the matter of recruiting Soviet citizens for duty in Spain and in addition had made it virtually impossible for a Soviet citizen to travel” (William E. Watters, An international affair: non-intervention in the Spanish Civil War, 1936-1939, 1971, p. 151)
“implicit was the decision to bar Soviet volunteers from the International Brigades, which were being organized by the Comintern” (Silvio Pons. Stalin and the Inevitable War: 1936-1941, London 2001, ISBN 9780714651989, p. 71)
“Leftwing sympathizers from all over Europe and America (but not from the Soviet Union) joined the International Brigades” (Richard Overy, Russia's War, London 1999, ISBN 9780141925127, p. 233)
“International Brigades have men of almost every country of the world in their ranks, with the one exception of Russians” (Franz Borkenau, Spanish Cockpit, London 2000, ISBN 978-1842120064, pp. 179-180)
“not a few ordinary Soviet citizens did seek to volunteer to assist the Republicans, even applying directly to the new Republican embassy in Moscow, but there is no evidence that any of these genuine volunteers were accepted” (Stanley G. Payne, The Spanish Civil War, the Soviet Union and Communism, London 2004, ISBN 9780300178326, p. 160)

The references quoted as allegedly referring to Soviet IB volunteers in fact refer to the Soviet military contingent: “The Soviet authorities did everything they could to camouflage the number of Red Army personnel in Spain, even making some of them enlist as volunteers in the International Brigades” (Anthony Beevor, The Battle for Spain, London 2006, ISBN 9781101201206, p. 162)

Reverting to my original edit. Regards, --89.76.22.216 (talk) 08:47, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

Saying that the commander of a unit is not a member of the unit is simply inane. Your entire argument is nothing but semantic nonsense. Mediatech492 (talk) 16:37, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

I do not think there is any chance we might arrive at some sort of agreement. I am commencing the issue resolution process as recommended by WP. The first step is to trigger the Request for Comments procedure. Regards, --89.76.22.216 (talk) 10:56, 14 September 2019 (UTC)