Talk:International reactions to the Israel–Hamas war/Archive 2

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Archive 1 Archive 2

Map needs a "condemned violence from both Hamas and Israel" grouping

There needs to be a "condemned violence from both Hamas and Israel" distinct from just a "Neutral stance" (which could mean a number of things). Just as an example: Ireland (as noted in the article) has strongly condemned the killings by Hamas; they are now also condemning Israel for human rights violations. Sources here:

XTheBedrockX (talk) 14:55, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

@XTheBedrockX possibly Ireland and others could be designated as "neutral"? Because condemning both Palestine (Hamas) and Israel means you are not taking any sides anymore. In effect becoming neutral. JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 02:59, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
@JWilz12345 In a sense, yeah. I'm not opposed to Ireland et al. being considered "neutral".
I think I just have an issue with the caption's wording of "Countries that maintained a neutral stance" vs. "Countries that have supported Israel or condemned Hamas" and "Countries that have supported Hamas or condemned Israel". To "maintain a neutral stance" in that context can imply that a country makes no specific comments on the actions of the parties involved; this doesn't really apply to Ireland, which has explicitly condemned actions from both Israel and Hamas. XTheBedrockX (talk) 03:14, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
Why not create two maps - one for reactions to the initial Hamas attack and one for the retaliatory Israel strikes?
Frankly, I think the main article needs to be broken into two parts as well. 2601:40:C481:A940:D4FB:3B05:7C51:3B7F (talk) 08:34, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
I agree with the editor who added an original research template at the top of the page. They specifically asked whose judgment the categorizations for the map are based on, and I think that unless that is clearly specified this map shouldn't exist. Countries put out varying statements with varying nuances and they do not fit neatly and straightforwardly into the small number of categories offered. Yes, we can add more categories to try capture some of this, or break it into multiple maps to separate what they are reacting to, but in the end there will still be lots of grey areas and putting them into categories amounts to WP:OR or at least WP:SYNTH. If there is a vote on a UN resolution or something like that, then I think we'd have grounds to make a map like this, but as is there is a lot of subjectivity.
To give one example, Bahrain is marked here as supporting Israel, presumably because they condemned Hamas' attack and we don't yet have a source on what they've said about Israel's actions, but (based on my judgment) it's very likely that they really belong in the "neutral" category and that this hasty categorization will have to be changed once there's more time for them to make diplomatic statements. It's also unclear what to put if a country condemns Israel's long-term policies in their statement on the conflict but doesn't explicitly condemn Israel's current actions. Gazelle55 Let's talk! 16:59, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
Agree with the above: WP:OR. This topic, above all others, doesn't admit such nuance-free side-taking. There's a world of difference between "condemning the 7 Oct incursion" (which is all some of the quotes in the article are doing, presumably the sources used for the map) and "supporting Israel" -- particularly ten days later with all that's happened in the interim.
And as one example from a country painted blue, see The Israeli Embassy in Mexico issued a strong condemnation of the administration... for not condemning the brutal and unprovoked acts against its people. Moscow Mule (talk) 18:14, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Map accuracy

Kaliningrad Oblast should be coloured in orange, like the rest of Russia. A3811 (talk) 12:55, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Actually, Russia, China, and Turkey should all be switched to neutral because that´s the most accurate description of their stances (and they were previously marked as neutral). StrongALPHA (talk) 14:07, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
as is the case of Belarus. StrongALPHA (talk) 14:08, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
China, Russia, and Turkey lean more towards Palestine TheLibyanGuy (talk) 21:34, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
Turkey does but not russia or china.Joaquinazo (talk) 21:54, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
Please note that Palestine ≠ Hamas Ddayzzz (talk) 11:00, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Kazakhstan condemns Hamas - Kazakhstan condemns the attacks by Hamas against civilians in Israel and the capture of hostages, including foreigners

Addition in India's Reaction

Addition in India's reaction : "After the bombing at Al Ahli hospital in Gaza, Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi spoke to the Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas to convey condolences at the loss of civilian lives."

Source: https://www.livemint.com/news/world/pm-modi-speaks-to-palestinian-authority-president-mahmoud-abbas-conveys-condolences-for-gaza-hospital-blast-victims-11697720334056.html Saket Sharma (talk) 07:32, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Please don't keep reverting Turkey to orange in map

Turkey is neutral. Most people in opposition and news supported Palestine but the goverment always called for de-escalation and only condemned bombing the hospital, like most other European nations (and said the "responsibles" of hospital bombing, didn't specifically say Israel). Plus police forces stopped protests against Israel (used pepper spray for Pro-Palestine protests) and protected the Israeli Embassy also.

Please don't keep changing it unless there is a consensus or anything new occurs. It's neutral for now. Mavreju (talk) 11:43, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Scope

This article's scope is currently about initial reaction to the attack by Hamas on Israel; and not on the war generally. Currently, it is highly misrepresenting the situation with this title. I would suggest either moving to "International reactions to 2023 Hamas attack on Israel", or expanding the scope of the article (which is already cluttered) to include reactions on the war generally. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:38, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

I second this. Mavreju (talk) 08:01, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

How do we define neutrality?

For example "Ireland" and "France" supported Israel many times but also said that they are with the victims of the hospital bombing etc.

When Turkey does that, it's labeled as "neutral" or even "pro-Palestine" but why do we act like EU is always pro-Israel even when countries have different views?

If a country have two distinct press releases then it should be neutral imho. Orange-Puppy-2221 (talk) 08:48, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

Please don't keep reverting Turkey to orange in map

Turkey is neutral. Most people in opposition and news supported Palestine but the goverment always called for de-escalation and only condemned bombing the hospital, like most other European nations (and said the "responsibles" of hospital bombing, didn't specifically say Israel). Plus police forces stopped protests against Israel (used pepper spray for Pro-Palestine protests) and protected the Israeli Embassy also.

Please don't keep changing it unless there is a consensus or anything new occurs. It's neutral for now. Mavreju (talk) 11:43, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Scope

This article's scope is currently about initial reaction to the attack by Hamas on Israel; and not on the war generally. Currently, it is highly misrepresenting the situation with this title. I would suggest either moving to "International reactions to 2023 Hamas attack on Israel", or expanding the scope of the article (which is already cluttered) to include reactions on the war generally. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:38, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

I second this. Mavreju (talk) 08:01, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

How do we define neutrality?

For example "Ireland" and "France" supported Israel many times but also said that they are with the victims of the hospital bombing etc.

When Turkey does that, it's labeled as "neutral" or even "pro-Palestine" but why do we act like EU is always pro-Israel even when countries have different views?

If a country have two distinct press releases then it should be neutral imho. Orange-Puppy-2221 (talk) 08:48, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

Removing map

Thank you Asarlaí for removing the map. I believe the map definitely was WP:OR (original research). Given the many nuances that can't be captured by a simple colour scheme, I don't think it should exist at all, but if it is going to be added again, the editors who support it should first explain on the talk page how they will make it less subjective so that it doesn't constitute original research. I will copy part of my comment from above here so that there can be a dedicated talk page section for this topic if others disagree:

I agree with the editor who added an original research template at the top of the page. They specifically asked whose judgment the categorizations for the map are based on, and I think that unless that is clearly specified this map shouldn't exist. Countries put out varying statements with varying nuances and they do not fit neatly and straightforwardly into the small number of categories offered. Yes, we can add more categories to try capture some of this, or break it into multiple maps to separate what they are reacting to, but in the end there will still be lots of grey areas and putting them into categories amounts to WP:OR or at least WP:SYNTH. If there is a vote on a UN resolution or something like that, then I think we'd have grounds to make a map like this, but as is there is a lot of subjectivity.

This is a charged topic and we want to provide neutral, objective information to preserve the reputation of Wikipedia and ensure the assessments of our editors are not passed off as objective facts to our readers. Gazelle55 Let's talk! 14:39, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

Addition to India's Reaction

Please make the following addition to the "Reactions" section:

−
Prime Minister Narendra Modi said the government condemned the "terrorist attacks on Israel", adding that "we stand in solidarity with Israel at this difficult hour". The Ministry Of External Affairs added that while they condemned the actions of Hamas, they supported the establishment of Palestine.
+
Prime Minister Narendra Modi said the government condemned the "terrorist attacks on Israel", adding that "we stand in solidarity with Israel at this difficult hour". The Ministry Of External Affairs added that while they condemned the actions of Hamas, they supported the establishment of Palestine. After the Al-Ahli Arab Hospital explosion, Prime Minister Narendra Modi conveyed condolences to the Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas.

Saket Sharma (talk) 09:54, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

Source: https://www.livemint.com/news/world/pm-modi-speaks-to-palestinian-authority-president-mahmoud-abbas-conveys-condolences-for-gaza-hospital-blast-victims-11697720334056.html Saket Sharma (talk) 15:12, 24 October 2023 (UTC) Saket Sharma (talk) 10:05, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

Bare URLs

Please, to anyone adding new reactions, consider filling the refs... It leads to disastrous denial of information at first sight and rot links. CoryGlee (talk) 10:24, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 30 October 2023

94.235.126.206 (talk) 17:16, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. --AntiDionysius (talk) 17:17, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 23 October 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) – robertsky (talk) 15:55, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

International reactions to the 2023 Israel–Hamas war → International reactions to the 2023 Hamas attack on Israel – The article focuses almost exclusively on the statements made at the very first days, i.e. when the Hamas attack unfolded, and not on the current war which is likely to extend to years. We either move this as discussed above, or we change the scope of this article to have a broader scope. Makeandtoss (talk) 13:50, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

I wholeheartedly agree.
When a country says something to condemn Israel today, they suddenly get switched to Orange or Gray.
Some countries though stay Blue. There is no consensus about it, it seems.
This one should be moved and a new article to get "current" views can be opened. Mavreju (talk) 14:38, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
Agreed. The initial statements are about the Hamas terrorist attack, which are set; Operation Iron Swords is an on-going war. I don't where that chronological line should be drawn... Or the ideological line, for that matter. Right to defense? Israel shouldn't exist? "Both sides"? No condemnation of Hamas? (The U.S. was very upset at the PRC for this). Root causes? Are no statements whatsoever de facto neutral or N/A? Who sends aid to whom? Etc. Heck, just parsing Africa alone would give any editor a headache: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/pro-israel-against-palestine-neutral-hamas-war-splits-africa/ar-AA1i5tDa kencf0618 (talk) 15:00, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
  • Strong oppose, the answer to that is expanding it to cover the reactions since then. nableezy - 15:33, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
  • Oppose because while it initially started as a Hamas attack, it has became a war ever since. --217.180.201.161 (talk) 19:28, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
  • Oppose: The article on the conflict itself is under the name 2023 Israel–Hamas war. This is a related sub-article and must use the same name for the conflict. If you think that "Israel–Hamas war" is wrong then propose to move that article, but be aware that two previous move discussions have failed. Cambalachero (talk) 14:15, 30 October 2023 (UTC)


The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 4 November 2023

The Israel Hamas war began 75 years ago when Israel occupied Palestine. October 7th was a retaliation and act of rebellion by Hamas after being brutally tortured and murdered by the Israeli apartheid regime. 197.162.254.92 (talk) 01:18, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: How did the war with Hamas began 75 years ago when Hamas was only founded in 1987? Also a potential NPOV violation. Borgenland (talk) 01:21, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

Taliban "conspicuosly quiet" on the war

Some news sources are pointing out that taliban is conspicuously quiet about the situation in gaza, some taliban leaders are even refusing to condemn israel claiming to "not interfere" on other countries internal affairs https://www.voanews.com/amp/taliban-leaders-conspicuously-silent-on-israel-hamas-war-in-gaza/7316729.html 2804:4FFC:40D:9D00:48C9:F49E:1B77:B695 (talk) 18:38, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 6 November 2023

Please add line about Britain temporarily withdrawing embassy staff from Lebanon due to this war. https://www.reuters.com/world/britain-temporarily-withdraws-some-embassy-staff-lebanon-2023-11-06/ BritishSpaniard (talk) 15:58, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: Please provide the exact prose you desire to add to the article. —Sirdog (talk) 05:23, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Religious groups

Does the LDS have any usable flag or logo to use as an icon? Borgenland (talk) 16:16, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Kazakhstan MFA

According to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, "Kazakhstan condemns Hamas attacks on Israeli civilians and hostage-taking" and calls on Israel to "refrain from the disproportionate use of force leading to numerous civilian casualties in the Gaza Strip and the destruction of civilian infrastructure," calling for the protection of civilians, respect for international law, and access to humanitarian aid.

[I recommend rewording my prose from source if possible.]

JrawX / Talk / Contribs 14:12, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Shadow311 (talk) 14:33, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 20 November 2023

Belize suspended relations with Israel. Please add it to the Americas section. Source: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/15/belize-suspends-ties-with-israel-due-to-gaza-bombardment#:~:text=Belize%20has%20suspended%20ties%20with,honorary%20consul%20in%20Tel%20Aviv. TheLibyanGuy (talk) 03:50, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Shadow311 (talk) 14:32, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

Hi, can anybody advise so I won't commit a mistake?

Hello all of you! I want to know something about the upcoming visit to Israel by president-elect of Argentina Javier Milei.

Can he be added to the list even when he takes office days later? Can he be added as a president-elect? Source of his visit before taking office: (in English): https://www.batimes.com.ar/news/argentina/javier-milei-confirms-visits-to-united-states-israel-before-december-10-inauguration.phtml

Thank you a lot. CoryGlee (talk) 09:53, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Probably. Aaron Liu (talk) 16:12, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

China's position on Hamas

Hello everyone. This article contains the text "China voted against condemning Hamas at the United Nations" which is not fully representative of China's position. China voted to affirm security draft council resolution S/2023/773, which explicitly "condemns the heinous terrorist attacks by Hamas".

Security draft council resolution, document S/2023/773: https://undocs.org/Home/Mobile?FinalSymbol=S%2F2023%2F773

Official UN meeting notes with voting record, document S/PV.9442: https://undocs.org/Home/Mobile?FinalSymbol=S%2FPV.9442

.. Francisc (talk) 19:47, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

Your links are dead. Aaron Liu (talk) 16:12, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
My apologies, I didn't realize those were temporary links. Edited to replace temporary links with permanent ones. Francisc (talk) 20:16, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

More visits by world leaders

Nov 5, former PMs of Australia and the UK.

Nov 6, Bulgarian PM.

>> 77.138.148.116 (talk) 15:58, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

Incumbents only please. Borgenland (talk) 17:34, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
 Not done: per Borgenland. —Sirdog (talk) 05:23, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
Clarifying that Bulgaria was added since it fit the criteria. Borgenland (talk) 16:19, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
Two more visits:
11/20 Latvian president
11/26 German president
213.137.72.81 (talk) 13:51, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Shadow311 (talk) 18:03, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Map

The map should be refreshed as many countries changed position in regard to United Nations General Assembly Resolution ES-10/22 Thank you 190.246.97.81 (talk) 10:40, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Please, I'd like to read opinions on adding this

(This map) to replace the one that is now here, I guess that it is a newer version of international positions.

Please, opine. CoryGlee (talk) 13:19, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 29 December 2023

In the United Kingdom reaction section, replace "On 9 December, Foreign Secretary David Cameron rejected calls for a ceasefire" and related citation, with 'On 17 December, Foreign Secretary David Cameron backed a "sustainable ceasefire" differentiated from a "general and immediate ceasefire", called for more aid to reach Gaza, and called for the Israeli government to "do more to discriminate sufficiently between terrorists and civilians".[1]'.

In the Germany reaction section, append 'On 17 December, Minister for Foreign Affairs Annalena Baerbock called for actions which would "pav[e] the way to a sustainable ceasefire in Gaza".[1]'.

References

  1. ^ a b "Why the UK and Germany back a sustainable ceasefire: article by the Foreign Secretary and the German Foreign Minister". GOV.UK. 2023-12-17. Retrieved 2023-12-23.

SoThisIsPeter (talk) 23:50, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

 Done ARandomName123 (talk)Ping me! 01:22, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Visits by world leaders - a row to add

 Czech Republic President Petr Pavel January 15, 2023 [1]

(Not sure the row format is correct; I can't see the source because the article is extended-protected and composed of various sub-components.) 213.57.150.153 (talk) 18:37, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

 Already done thank you! Staraction (talk | contribs) 19:47, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
  1. ^ "Czech President: Israel can rely on us in battling Hamas". The Jerusalem Post. 2024-01-15.

Mistake

Hi, there's a typo in the translation of the last source under "Argentina" Should I contact the user who made the entry? 190.246.97.81 (talk) 12:51, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Country reactions

I think it would be better to chop off the detailed condemnations and other reactions of the 7 October attack since it is already covered in the 2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel. Borgenland (talk) 08:55, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Proposed merge of Transatlantic Civil Servants' Statement on Gaza into International reactions to the Israel–Hamas war

While a very bold initiative, definitely out of ordinary, the letter doesn't seem sufficiently notable at this stage for a standalone article in an encyclopaedia. — kashmīrī TALK 01:52, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

Support basically per WP:NOTNEWS. We don't have articles about the open letters from scholars; this letter definitely meets WP:ASPECT for inclusion in this article, but I don't think it meets any notability guideline, or at least not yet based on sourcing (like it's in the news but not worldwide front page news). Levivich (talk) 01:59, 4 February 2024 (UTC)


Support does not seem to have risen to significance such as to warrant a stand-alone article. Coretheapple (talk) 15:25, 4 February 2024 (UTC)
Support Not really notable enough to be standalone.Selfstudier (talk) 17:53, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
Support - Short article, should have not been an article in the first place Abo Yemen✉ 17:58, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
  checkY Merger complete. Klbrain (talk) 18:55, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
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