Talk:Inuit clothing/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Source dump

Contemporary Inuit fashion
Ivalu.

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Amkgp (talk) 07:08, 10 September 2020 (UTC)

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Sealskin woman's parka discovered at Qilakitsoq in 1972, carbon-dated to c. 1475
Sealskin woman's parka discovered at Qilakitsoq in 1972, carbon-dated to c. 1475
  • ... that archaeological evidence indicates that the traditional skin clothing of the Inuit may have been developed as early as 20,000 years ago? Source: * Kobayashi Issenman, Betty (1985). "Inuit Skin Clothing: Construction and Motifs". Études/Inuit/Studies. 9 (2: Arctic policy): 101.
Reindeer hide parka with dog fur trim around the face, unspecified Alaskan Inuit group
Reindeer hide parka with dog fur trim around the face, unspecified Alaskan Inuit group
  • Reviewed: Mineko Nomachi
  • Comment: Mainspaced from user draft on August 27. This is still kind of being worked on, but it's reasonably complete, so I figured I'd get the DYK going before I forget. There are two potential images depending on the hook. If the first hook is used, the image of the Qilakitsoq parka is probably better as it is more historical. On the other hand, the image of the dog fur-trimmed parka is better for the second hook as it demonstrates the face-warming ruff.

Created by Premeditated Chaos (talk). Self-nominated at 08:14, 28 August 2020 (UTC).

Substantial article on fine sources, thank you! Offline sources accepted AGF, no copyvio obvious. I have slight reservations about the hooks. In the original, the date is contested, - should we perhaps say what's sure, which I think is impressive enough? The image caption for that hook could do without the discovery, to be more concise. The ALT, - I can't see the general "winter clothing" in the article, just "the most efficient system for preventing heat transfer from the face". Both images are licensed, the second shows better in small size. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:24, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Gerda caught most of what I was going to say. Just FYI Sinews of Survival p. 11 says 23,000 to 24,000 years ago. Perhaps use "over 20,000"? Also, I'd like to see pronouns other than 'it' being used for infants and children. gobonobo + c 11:50, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
I rewrote the first History paragraph so it's more up to date (Sinews is newer than the other Kobayashi Issenman source so going to assume more correct about the dates also). Gerda Arendt, good catch, I plucked an interesting fact from the source without actually putting it in the article - duh :) Probably better to match the hook to the image, so before I go rewriting the hooks, can you confirm which image you prefer at the DYK size? (The placement of the images on this page is backwards to what I wrote in my text so I want to make sure we're looking at the same one.)
As to the pronouns thing, Gobonobo, I reworded it to mostly remove the use of "it" for children, although it's not grammatically incorrect, just a matter of preference. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 20:14, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
Thank you. I'd prefer the furry one going with ALT1, but if you prefer the other, that's fine as well. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:19, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
I'm cool with taking the ALT1 branch. Here's a rewrite:
ALT1-A: ... that modern studies have shown that the characteristic fur-trimmed hood on traditional Inuit skin clothing (pictured) is more effective at preventing heat transfer than manufactured winter clothing?
Does that work? ♠PMC♠ (talk) 20:49, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
Not quite, which may be my German background, where "manufactured" would mean "made by hand" which is true for the traditional (also).
ALT1, but open for changes. I added pictured there. Just will be away until Wednesday, and want to do something. - No rush to show winter clothing ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:58, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
In English "manufactured" has the specific subtext of artificial or automated production. If you knitted a sweater you wouldn't say you manufactured a sweater - you'd say you made it. But in any case, the point of ALT1-A was to more closely match what's in the article per your initial critique - is it ok in that sense? ♠PMC♠ (talk) 22:11, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
Gerda Arendt, any thoughts? ♠PMC♠ (talk) 22:31, 4 September 2020 (UTC)
English is difficult, and forgot the Latin origin from manus=hand and factum=made, but I believe you. Both ALT1 and ALT1-A are approved. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:37, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

Nice photos!

Just wanted to note that I appreciate the quality of the photos on this page; the ones with the white background look really clean! {{u|Sdkb}} talk 03:35, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

Sdkb, thank you, I'm so glad you liked them! I really can't take any credit except for finding them. The white-background ones come from the Skin Clothing Online project, which, thanks be to god, uploaded all of their photos under CC-BY-SA. The rest are from Commons; it's really blown my mind the wealth of Inuit clothing images (historical and contemporary) that I've found there. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 04:48, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

Hey, I found this article when looking at my upload stats, as you used an image I put up from Joseph Dewey Soper. In case you haven't seen, there's a number of clothing photos in the Canadian Arctic Expedition category over on Commons. Full disclosure that I uploaded these on behalf of my employer, although other institutions also own copies of this images, so I'll leave it to you to decide if any are right for use here. Congratulations on your work so far! The Raven's Librarian (talk) 16:45, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

Hi The Raven's Librarian, thanks much for the comments, and for your work in uploading all those wonderful photos. I will take a look through that category and see if anything jumps out at me. Cheers! ♠PMC♠ (talk) 08:00, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

Article title?

I would have expected "Inuit clothing" to refer to any and all clothing worn by Inuit people (including, say, modern Western fashion), but this article seems to cover something more specific. I wonder if something like "Inuit skin clothing", "Inuit clothing system", or "traditional Inuit clothing" would cover the article scope better. The title should also match the bolded phrase in the first sentence. (t · c) buidhe 23:44, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

I'm not sure I would agree. The scope of the article is all Inuit clothing, that is, clothing made by and for Inuit people - not all clothing worn by Inuit people (although in any case in the history section I do mention the adoption and use of non-Inuit clothing). Changing the title as you suggest would seem to exclude modern Inuit clothing (these days often not made of skin, and may not be 100% "traditional" even when it is) which by rights ought to be included. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 00:32, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

GA Review

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Inuit clothing/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Vami IV (talk · contribs) 14:53, 19 April 2021 (UTC)


Opening statement

Hello, and come what may from this review, thank you for your contributions to Wikipedia. During the review, I may make copyedits, which I will limit to spelling correction and minor changes to punctuation (removal of double spaces and such). I will only make substantive edits that change the flow and structure of the prose if I previously suggested and it is necessary. The Nominator(s) should understand that I am a grammar pedant, and I will nitpick in the interest of prose quality. For responding to my comments, please use  Done,  Fixed, plus Added,  Not done,  Doing..., or minus Removed, followed by any comment you'd like to make. I will be crossing out my comments as they are redressed, and only mine. A detailed, section-by-section review will follow. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 14:53, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

The WikiProject Good Article coordinators should know that I delayed my review at Premeditated Chaos's request, as she had just received some more material for the article. I was informed last night that everything is now ready for review. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 07:41, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

Lead

  • Sentences in this article are really long. Some even stretch into next week.
  • Sometimes thoughts are long! :P
  • The Inuit clothing system bears strong similarities to the skin clothing systems of other indigenous Arctic peoples such as the Alaska Natives and the indigenous peoples of Siberia and the Russian Far East. Could be shortened: "[...] such as the indigenous peoples of Alaska, Siberia and the Russian Far East." Give or take an Oxford comma.
  • Trimmed
  • After European colonization of North America and Greenland began in the 1600s, [...] European colonization of the Americas began in the 15th century. Is "the 1600s" referring to areas inhabited by the Inuit peoples?
  • Yeah I fucked up somewhere along the line. Rewrote that bit.

Traditional outfit

  • These garments were fairly lightweight despite their warmth [...] "despite their thickness" would be better; warmth does not have weight.
  • I knew that was bad when I wrote it but could not for the life of me figure out how to say it properly. I used "insulating ability" instead of thickness because individual garments weren't actually all that thick.
  • I would in that case omit "despite their X". –♠Vami_IV†♠ 02:47, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
  • I don't know, I think it's an important detail. Half the reason Inuit clothing was so good wasn't just that it was warm, but that it didn't sacrifice dexterity by being heavy, thick, or bulky. You can wear it and still get shit like hunting done efficiently.
  • The range of distinguishing features on the parka alone was significant, as described by Inuit clothing expert Betty Kobayashi Issenman in her 1997 book Sinews of Survival, including "the hood or lack thereof, and hood shape; width and configuration of shoulders; presence of flaps front and back, and their shape; in women's clothing the size and shape of the amaut, the baby pouch; length and outline of the lower edge; and fringes, ruffs, and decorative inserts." This sentence is enormous. I recommend breaking it into two after the book title, and beginning the second with something like "She included [...]".
  • I really think it reads better as one sentence. It's long, but it feels choppy to me broken up. I've changed it, but I want to record that I'm doing so under protest :P
  • The concept of Inuit clothing encompasses the traditional wear of a geographically broad range of Inuit cultures from Alaska to Greenland. For the sake of consistency, this article uses Canadian Inuktitut terminology, unless otherwise noted. I recommend putting this in a footnote (as [a]); it sticks out from the rest of the text by already being a note, and not having an in-line citation. Where to put this footnote is up to you, though I think the table below it or just before the quote above are the best places.
  • Well, it can't really have an in-line citation, as it's an explanatory note about the article content. I specifically didn't make it a footnote because I want it to be visible without having to click elsewhere, which many readers (especially on mobile) don't do.
  • Why does only one set of Inuit characters have a citation in the table?
  • Relic; I've pulled it.

Footwear

  • In the deepest part of winter, the footwear of the traditional outfit could [...] "In the deepest part of winter," is nebulous and its removal would lead to no loss of quality for the text.
  • Hmmmmm yeah okay
  • [...] both of which had outward-facing fur. "of which" is unnecessary here.
  • Trimmed

Accessory garments

  • I don't know, the source directly says "icing sled runners". Actually interestingly, tried Googling the phrase and this source indicates that putting ice on sled runners was literally what was going on, which is kind of neat.
  • Well huh!
  • "Greenlandic" is a disambiguation.
  • Fixed

Bird skins

  • When hunting geese, all-white parkas made from goose or caribou belly skin allowed men to camouflage themselves in the snow for an easier hunt. This unfortunately has little to do with the usage of pieces of geeses by the Inuit peoples.
  • Yeahhh fair I pulled it.

Fabric and artificial materials

  • Beginning in the 1600s, contact with non-Inuit, including American, European, and Russian traders and explorers, began to have a greater influence on the construction and appearance of Inuit clothing. Greater influence than what? I would assume "greater than the cost and returns of the labor involved in acquiring raw materials and using them to make traditional Inuit garb". That's a mouthful though. I'd go with "[...] began to have great influence [...]".
  • I tweaked it to "increasingly large influence".
  • [...] while rejecting elements that were detrimental [...]. Recommend "unsuitable" rather than detrimental. Unless absorbing sweat caused garments to fall apart, anyway.
  • Swapped, unsuitable is definitely better

Tools

  • Ulu knives were particularly important tools for seamstresses. Considered to be integral to their identity, they were often buried with their owner at her death. "at her death" is redundant.
  •  Done

Hide processing

  • [...] with an ulu knife until [...] "knife" here is redundant, since you've already discussed the ulu.
  • Sometimes the fur would need to be removed so the hide could be used for things like boot soles, which could be done with an ulu. This can be condensed. Maybe combine the last clause with the next sentence? This could be done with an ulu or, if the hair had been loosened by putrefaction or soaking in water, a blunt scraping tool.
  • Both done

Maintenance

  • Historically, the Inuit used two main tools [...] ...but only the tiluqtut gets a formal introduction and its Inuit name.
  • That's because none of the sources I found gave the Inuit name for drying rack. I finally found one and added it.

Major principles

  • noted that cold-weather garments such Inuit clothing must Missing word?
  • it ran away from me, I've caught it and tied it down
  • The women's coat, the amauti [...] Already introduced.
  • trimmed
  • [...] labour-intensive, highly customized [...] Does Canadian English not use -ise?
  • Probably? I dunno, I tend to prefer the Z's, but I'm not making a point or anything. Being on the internet and dealing with American-slanted spellcheck has flattened my Canadianisms.
  • I'll just mark this off for now, but this'll come up again in FAC. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 22:23, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
  • Hunters carried sewing kits which enabled them to make repairs in the field if necessary. Already stated in #Maintenance.
  • Trimmed a bit also

Decorative techniques

  • [...] beads were made from amber, stone, tooth, and ivory. Should be "teeth".
  • I disagree, it's referring to "tooth" as an uncountable material, not teeth in the plural.

Spirituality and identity

  • [...] both the material and spiritual world. Should this be plural?
  • Yes, and now it is

History

  • [...] Thule culture era of approximately 1000 to 1600 CE. Era?
  • I don't know what the problem is with the word.
  • These people brought trade goods such as metal tools, beads, and fabric which began to be integrated into traditional clothing, as well as premade fabric garments that sometimes replaced traditional wear. Sentence used earlier in its entirety.
  • So was the one before it, actually :P I've condensed and reworded both now.

Images

  • All relevant and free or tagged, but still one problem: their captions. See MOS:CAPFRAG: Most captions are not complete sentences, but merely sentence fragments, which should not end with a period or full stop. If any complete sentence occurs in a caption, then all sentences, and any sentence fragments, in that caption should end with a period or full stop. There are many captions consisting of sentence fragments that should not have the periods they currently possess.
  • Oops, that comes from a flawed misremembering of the MOS - for some reason I thought it was that "If any complete sentence occurs in a caption, then all sentences, and any sentence fragments, in ANY caption" should end with a full stop. I will fix.

Referencing

  • Sources are all reliable. I like the way you have your bibliography organized.
  • Thanks! I'm not gonna lie, I am inordinately pleased with that bibliography.

GA progress

Good Article review progress box
Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV ()
3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant ()
Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Photo

Very interesting and well-done article on a not-so obvious topic. For the first photo in the upper right can you label the description with what language that is? 70.161.8.90 (talk) 15:20, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

proofreading

Could an admin kindly correct the wikilinked “water repellant”, under “Caribou and seal”, which contains a spelling error and is a compound modifier requiring hyphenation, to “water-repellent”? Thanks! Julietdeltalima (talk) 23:57, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

Julietdeltalima, the article is not protected, but I have made the change. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 00:03, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

Thank you, Premeditated Chaos (many, many days later)! If memory serves, when I tried to make that edit through the fudgesicklesticking mobile app, the app indicated that the article was FULLY protected. It was weird. But I assume anything that can go weirdly on the mobile app is going to do so. Much appreciated; thanks for your patience! Julietdeltalima (talk) 01:27, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

No worries! I agree, the mobile app is, hmmm, not to put too fine a point on it, Awful. Cheers, and thanks for catching that typo - I can't believe it made it all the way through both the Good Article nomination and the Featured Article Candidacy :) ♠PMC♠ (talk) 07:26, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
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