Talk:Irish immigration to Puerto Rico/Archive 2

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Notable Puerto Ricans of Irish descent

The following is a list of notable Puerto Ricans or people of Puerto Rican descent with Irish surnames. This list also includes people of Puerto Rican and Irish descent born in the United States and Irishmen/women who adopted Puerto Rico as their homeland as well.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Varlaam (talk • contribs)

What is the meaning of this?

What is the problem and why was this list posted in the "talk page"? The section in the artilce clearly states "The following is a list of notable Puerto Ricans or people of Puerto Rican descent with Irish surnames. This list also includes people of Puerto Rican and Irish descent born in the United States and Irishmen/women who adopted Puerto Rico as their homeland as well." It follows the same format as established in other immigration articles and is within Wikipedia policy. Tony the Marine (talk) 21:45, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Why does this list includes "Puerto Rican and Irish descent born in the United States"? What does this people have to do with Irish immigration to PR? --damiens.rf 21:34, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
Miguel Ferrer's mother was the singer Rosemary Clooney, who is Irish-American. His father (noted actor Jose Ferrer) is Puerto Rican. She did not immigrate to Puerto Rico. Her parents met and wed and lived on the mainland. Why is their son Miguel on this list? How many other inappropriate names like this comprise this list? ScottyBerg (talk) 22:40, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
  • Poeple born in the United States of Puerto Rican descent are always considered as "Puerto Ricans" by the American society which tends to categorize people by race and so on. The people on this list also happen to be also of Irish descent and with the constent travel between the island and the mainland, since you do not have any passport restrictions, you have a constent migration back and forth of people of Irish descent to the island, hence they are part of the Irish immigration to Puerto Rico article. Tony the Marine (talk) 23:28, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
  • Granted,but this is an article on Irish immigration to Puerto Rico, not Puerto Ricans of Irish (or half-Irish, quarter-Irish, etc.) descent. The list should consist of Irish immigrants, not people who just happen to have some Irish folks on their family trees. If this was an article about Irish-Puerto Ricans, it would be different. ScottyBerg (talk) 23:37, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
  • I agree. This articles confuses concepts of immigration and family tree. Under the criteria defended above, if a girl is born in Ireland form an expatriated Puerto Rican father, she would be in the list. So both immigrants and emigrants are allowed. --damiens.rf 00:59, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

We should also clean the list from unsourced immigrants. I've clicked through some of the names an in many case their bio article had no mention of their status of Irish immigrant (or even Irish ancestry) other than a link to this article in the see also section. --damiens.rf 17:35, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Request for comment on list in the article

Should the article contain a lengthy list of people who have an Irish-sounding surname, or someone in their family tree who is Irish? Or should the list consist only of actual Irish migrants to Puerto Rico and their descendants? ScottyBerg (talk) 14:17, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

  • Only immigrants and the article is about immigration. --damiens.rf 15:46, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
  • Only immigrants to Puerto Rico from Ireland and their descendants. That's what the article is about. Miguel Ferrer, the actor son of Jose Ferrer and Rosemary Clooney, is on this list because his mother is of Irish-German descent. His parents met and married in Hollywood, and Miguel Ferrer has absolutely nothing to do with an article on Irish migration to Puerto Rico. The list is nothing short of padding. ScottyBerg (talk) 17:24, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
  • As is - This article is not only about the Irish immigration to Puerto Rico, but also about their descendants and the impact that they have had on Puerto Rico and the world in general. Another thing, why hasn't a notice of this been placed on the "talk" page of the Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Puerto Rico? It is the proper thing to do, therefore please do so, I believe that the Puerto Rican community has a right to know when subjects related to them are being discussed. Tony the Marine (talk) 22:55, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
    • If you feel that way, then you agree that it should only be "immigrants and descendants" on the list, not "as is." Rosemary Clooney, mother of Miguel Ferrer, was not an Irish immigrant to Puerto Rico. ScottyBerg (talk) 23:07, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
      • Scotty, sometimes we don't see eye to eye, but I have to admit that your observation of Miguel Ferrer is valid. Tony the Marine (talk) 23:28, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
        • I just went through the articles on the people in the list, and there isn't a single one who is either a migrant from Ireland or a descendant from a migrant from Ireland. There is either no reference to Irish heritage or they are children of Irish people marrying Puerto Ricans, as was the case with Miguel Ferrer. His case is conspicuous because he is the child of two famous people. ScottyBerg (talk) 23:38, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
  • You do not have to state that you are a descendant of an Irish immagrant to be one. Is not Sen. John McCain an Irish-American descendant of Irish immigrants? It is an accepted fact. Come on Scotty, the people on the list are Puerto Ricans of Irish descent. I'm going to have to ask for grandchildren to get tattoes which state "I'am an Irish-Puerto Rican"' in case in the future they become notable. That way they won't have to explain they are Puerto Ricans with the surname Warner or Stephen, (smile). Tony the Marine (talk) 23:54, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
    • As a matter of fact, yes, it does have to be stated in the article before you can put somebody on a list. We can't put our guesswork and speculation in articles. Nor do we put people in lists when the articles on them plainly indicate that they don't belong there. ScottyBerg (talk) 23:58, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
  • Point well taken and an interesting one at that. I mean this type of logic should also apply to every single biography which mentions, this person or that person is "African-American", "Italian-American", "Irish-American" and so on, since proof that the person in question is a descendant of whatever place would be required. Tony the Marine (talk) 00:39, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

A person may be included in a list of people if all the following requirements are met:

  • The person meets the Wikipedia notability requirement. An exception to this requirement may be made if the person is especially important in the list's group; for example, if the person is famous for a specific event, the notability requirement need not be met. If a person in a list does not have an article in Wikipedia about them, a citation (or link to another article) must be provided to establish their membership in the list's group and to establish their notability.
  • The person's membership in the list's group is significant in some way (in other words, a person should not be included in a list merely because they happen to be a member of the list's group). This requirement applies only to lists based upon religion, beliefs, sexual orientation, ethnicity, or other contentious topics.
  • The person's membership in the list's group is established by reliable sources.

Note what I've put in boldface. As for the underlying article, yes, of course, reliable sources are needed to prove ethnicity. This has come up many times before. Nothing new here. --ScottyBerg (talk) 01:21, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

  • Remove all person not supported by sources - This RfC is asking a valid question, but there are a couple of higher priority things that should be addressed first: (1) the list of people is a bit too long to be embedded in this article: it really should be a dediciated WP:List style article. (2) people cannot be added to the list without a footnote identifying a source that states that the person is Irish (or of Irish descent). As painful as that sounds, it is required: people should be removed from the list if they dont have sources supporting the ancestry. After that is taken care of: then the issue of who is in the list may just take care of itself: since the list requires a source to state "of Irish descent/ancestry" the list will naturally get pruned down. In any case, no person should be in the list simply because a WP editor believes the person has an Irish-sounding surname. --Noleander (talk) 01:23, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
    • I have removed the "list" because I believe that the discussion is headed towards that option and that there are solid agruements towards this respect. I believe that as creator of the article that it would be proper and the right thing to do. Tony the Marine (talk) 02:07, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
  • That is right and that is why I removed the sections. Tony the Marine (talk) 19:25, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Photos on the infobox

We still don't have sources linking the people picture in the infobox to Irish migration to Puerto Rico. I've checked them all and the one that gets closer is Kenneth McClintock, that was born in London to an Irish father and raised in Puerto Rico by his Puerto Rico mother. Cayetano Coll y Toste and Judith Ortiz Cofer where born in Ney York, while Rafael O'Ferrall was born in New York City. --damiens.rf 13:56, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

I've reinstated the previous discussions, which were archived far too prematurely. When a dispute giving rise to an RfC is resolved, the tag is removed, not the whole gol-dang discussion. That "archiving" blanked the discussion page just a few days after an RfC began. This page is not especially long, so let's not be so anxious to archive.
Yes, I agree that the photos are misleading and to do not appear to relate to Irish immigration to Puerto Rico. ScottyBerg (talk) 14:32, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
I believe he archived the discussion because the article no longer have the list. I would be ok with that. But we should go on with the infobox pictures issue. --damiens.rf 15:18, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
The sticking point on the infobox is that the photos are broadly labeled "Notable Puerto Ricans with Irish surnames." That does not justify use of photos that give a misleading impression - they imply that the photos are of descendants of Irish immigrants to Puerto Rico, when that is not apparently the case. ScottyBerg (talk) 16:31, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
Yes, I agree the infobox, as is, is not representing the subject of the article. And indeed, "Puerto Ricans with Irish surnames" would never be acceptable as an article or a list, as it's just a collection of loosely coupled individuals. --damiens.rf 17:55, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm sorry but both of you are making a big deal over nothing. It seems as if you both can never put an issue to an end. The infobox clearly states that those are notable "Puerto Ricans with Irish surnames" which is true; they are Puerto Ricans with "Irish surnames" which comes as a result of the Irish immigration to Puerto Rico which is the subject and discussed. Do you want proof that they are of Irish descent without a birth certificate or whatever? Then provide me proof that every notable Irish-American is of Irish descent. I am not stating that they are of "Irish descent", therefore sources to this respect are not required. I have already complied with your wishes which were to remove the name list from the article and that is why the talk was archived in the first place, however unless you can provide me with proof that I have violated policy or that those in the infobox are not Puerto Ricans with Irish surnames, then I see no reason for further action to be taken. Interesting enough, do you both know what is against Wikipedia piolicy? Tag-teaming, remember? Tony the Marine (talk) 18:59, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

No tag teaming here. I, for one, do not oppose the archiving of the above talk. Also, I see no policy being broken here (no more). Back to the issue, I restate my concern: What use is a photo montage of "Puerto Ricans with Irish surnames" on an article about Irish immigration? Not all Puerto Ricans with Irish sounding surnames have something to do with Irish immigration to Puerto Rico. It's like putting a gallery of "slant-eyed Mexicans" in an article about Korean immigration to Mexico. If the problem also happens with Irish Americans, let's fix it also. --damiens.rf 19:56, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

I disagree that there is no policy issue involved here. There certainly is: WP:OR. Tony, as an administrator you should be familiar with that policy. Let's go over the people in the infobox one by one and see how they relate to Irish immigration to Puerto Rico:

  • Cayetano Coll y Toste: Nothing in the article indicating that he is descended from Irish immigrants to Puerto Rico. He is in the infobox because a Wikipedia editor decided that his name was Irish-sounding. (Same issue as with the list, which is why it needs not to be archived. Same OR, same editor pushing it. See comment from Noleander in the RfC.)
  • Rafael O'Ferrall: Same.
  • Judith Ortiz Cofer: Same.
  • Kenneth McClintock. Father is an Irish-American from Texas. Definitely doesn't belong in this article.

All of the photos need to be removed per WP:OR, very much as the list needed to be removed for the same reason. I've asked for comment from other editors.ScottyBerg (talk) 20:15, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

RfC on photos in infobox

Should an article on the Irish migration to Puerto Rico be illustrated with an array of photos of people with surnames that are, in the opinion of a Wikipedia editor, Irish-sounding? Or should the article only contain photographs of people who are descended from Irish immigrants to Puerto Rico or are themselves Irish immigrants to Puerto Rico, according to reliable sources? ScottyBerg (talk) 20:29, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

  • Coll, O'Ferrall, Cofer and McClintock are Irish surnames (look it up) and the subjects are Puerto Rican. This issue is not to be determined by a popular vote nor consensus of other editors. Policy has not been violated and the infobox includes the proper heading which is not misleading. A consensus here would be as valid as the consensus which determaned that the proper name for a "list of people" should include the term "notable" Consensus and which nither of you respected . This therefore is not the proper forum and any decision making discussion should be transferred to the proper forum. Tony the Marine (talk) 20:55, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
    • The issue here is pretty much identical to the one concerning the list of people with Irish-sounding names that at one point was contained in this article. See [1], above. ScottyBerg (talk) 21:17, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
  • Only immigrants and their descendants, as stated by reliable sources. ScottyBerg (talk) 21:19, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
  • Reliable source needed - names not enough - The WP:Verifiability policy is pretty clear: external sources are required to establish any fact that is represented in WP, even implicit facts such as supplying a photo of a person in an article about Irish descendents. See WP:Reliable sources. The mere fact that a surname sounds Irish is not enough. Lest anyone think this is too draconian, look at it this way: all significant Puerto Ricans of Irish descent will have a reliable source that so identifies them. Think about it: if we cannot find such a source, then the person either is not very significant, or their Irish ancestry is not clearly established. This criteria for inclusion applies not only to the persons shown in the photos, but to all persons named in the article. --Noleander (talk) 21:56, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
    • You seem to not understand. You do not need a relaible source to claim that a person has an Irish surname and those people do have Irish surnames. You would need one to claim that the person is of Irish descent which is not the case here. Provide me with a source that proofs that John McCain is Irish American. I'm sure that you can not, but yet he is listed as Irish-American and has an Irish surname. According to your logic then all significant Americans of Irish descent will have a reliable source that so identifies them. Not so. Tony the Marine (talk) 22:28, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
      • Yes, a reliable source is required for all facts asserted in this encyclopedia. Please review WP:Verifiability and WP:Reliable sources. John McCain is identified as of Irish-Scottish ancestry in the article John McCain, and there is a source provided to support that fact (namely: Roberts, Gary. "On the Ancestry, Royal Descent, and English and American Notable Kin of Senator John Sidney McCain IV", New England Historic Genealogical Society (April 1, 2008). Retrieved May 19, 2008.) Furthermore, if you look at List of Irish Americans you will see that every single one of the 255 persons listed there have a footnote identifying a source. Placing a photo in Irish immigration to Puerto Rico asserts "This person (or his parents/grandparents) immigrated from Ireland to Puerto Rico". Editors alone cannot vouch for that: a source must be provided. I repeat: if you cannot find a source for person ABC, that is a good clue that something is amiss, and person ABC should not be mentioned in this article. Spend some time looking for sources. --Noleander (talk) 22:37, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
  • As the "List of Irish Americans' article states: "As blood ancestry faded with each generation, being "Irish American" became something more of a traditionalist temperament, one that would require constant reinforcement to maintain. Sometimes to be an Irish-American relied less on the amount of Irish genes and more on a self-aware exhibition of certain "Irish"-attributed qualities." What we have in the article as a source are books that state that this and that American person was of Irish descent, however the majority of the so-called source themself do not provide any proof to back up thier claims. I am not claiming that these people are of Irish descent, since in Puerto Rico the people are proud of being Puerto Ricans and do not relie so much on ethnic terms such as "African-Puerto Rican", Italian-Puerto Rican" and so on, being that the reason that you will seldom find references on Puerto Rican ethncity. What I have claimed and will continue to claim is that these people are notable Puerto Ricans with Irish surnames. I have also stated that this is not the proper forum to determine a major change to this article. Tony the Marine (talk) 22:56, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
    • I'm surprised that you don't feelthis is the proper forum to determine a major change in this article, in light of [2] [3][4][5][6][7][8] and [9]. ScottyBerg (talk) 01:13, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
    • That is right, but I am not surprised that for some unknown reason you have twice failed to notify the Puerto Rican community considering that this is a Puerto Rican related article. As you may very well have noticed I placed a notice in the PR Project page and I also requested the opinion of other editors. I am not asking anyone to be in favor or against. I am not asking for votes, but for opinions be it in favor to my opinion or not, therefore I am not canvassing. Regardless, any attempt of consensus will be viewed as valid as this one: Consensus unless it is discussed in the proper forum where others "not" conected with you and myself can clear the situation. Tony the Marine (talk) 02:13, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
  • Only use photos of people who have been indentified in reliable sources as being of Irish anscestry. Cla68 (talk) 04:34, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Comment - This is not a consensus. Ethncity which requires reliable sources per policy is not being discussed. What is being discussed is the fact that there is no specific policy which requires a source when it is stated that a person's surname is of the origin of a certain country. That is why the section is titled "Puerto Ricans with Irish surnames". Tony the Marine (talk) 04:53, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Tony: If you want to create an article about Puerto Ricans with Irish surnames, you can do so, but that would be a new article (and that article would probably fail the WP:Notability test). This article is about persons that are descended from Irish, and any person so denoted in this article needs a source to validate it, per WP:Verifiability. You are attempting to blur the lines between ancestry and surnames, but those are two distinct concepts, and the latter (surnames) is not encyclopedic. It is okay to generically list Irish surnames found in Puerto Rico, but to assert that a particular individual is of Irish descent requires a WP:Reliable source. If you cannot find a second editor to support your opinions, I'm afraid that consensus is against your position. --Noleander (talk) 05:55, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
  • Maybe you are right, Noleander, but the thing that I most agree with you is that an article about Puerto Ricans with Irish surnames is definitly out of the question. Tony the Marine (talk) 07:41, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Keep-surnames in and of itself are proof of ethnicity - This article and the illustrative photographs provide a very valuable insight into the true demographic context of what is generally known as "the people of Puerto Rico" or "Puerto Ricans". There are many notable Puerto Ricans (I think we would all agree that the Mayor of Guaynabo and longtime president of the Mayors Federation is notable and that his surname, O'Neill, lacking proof of its acquisition of a legal adoption, establishes that someone in his bloodline was Irish) (Idem for Lieutenant Governor MacClintock) who are not descended from African slaves, exterminated Taínos or Spanish colonists but from Irish, and if not so expressed here, many wouldn't give it a second thought. In recent years, in addition to the St. Patrick's Day parade in the Condado, and beerfests at Shannon's (with that name, those minimizing Irish influence in PR should not assume it's a Spanish bodega, please!) or Logan's, small parades, followed by picnics, have been held in towns as small as Luquillo. At the end of the day, Wikipedia will live or die on the basis of its credibility and usage by schoolchildren and students around the nation and the world. Get back to the basics. This article, these photographs, enrich the truthful, unique and easy-to-look-up information on PR. Does that lessen credibility? No, on the contrary. Will it increase future usage? Most certainly! Pr4ever (talk) 11:44, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

  • Comment Anyone closing this RfC should acquaint him/herself with WP:False consensus as it appears non-neutral CANVASSing may have occurred. Anent surnames being "proof" of descent, that is palpably false. LA had a major political figure named "Cunningham" who was not, in fact, of obvious Irish descent, and such is true around the world. As we can not categorize people in BLPs as being of a specific ethnic group in their own biographies, it also follows that we can not do so through the back door either. This article is as required to follow WP:BLP as any. Collect (talk) 12:04, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
The canvassing is discussed on the Administrator's Noticeboard here. PR4ever's comment was directly solicited by User:Marine 69-71. [10] ScottyBerg (talk) 12:12, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
@Pr4ever: Your comments (ignoring the canvassing) constitute original research. The WP policies require that material in the encyclopedia come - not from the thoughts of editors such as yourself - but from WP:Reliable sources. You may personally believe that mayor O'Neill is of Irish descent, but that is not sufficient: a reliable source is required, per the WP:Verifiability policy. Once again, I suggest that you and Tony spend some time looking for sources on this topic: I'm sure that with some research you can find sources to support the inclusion of the photos. Strongly held opinions are no substitute for sources. --Noleander (talk) 13:19, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
My comments included my points of view, as well as original research, I agree, and which have no place in an article, but can certainly be used to substantiate arguments in a talk page. Pr4ever (talk) 03:07, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
Sourcing of ancestry is just one hurdle that needs to be surmounted. This article is about Irish migration to Puerto Rico. The photos need to reflect that. Kenneth McClintock does not belong, as his Irish-American father was a Texan, not an Irish immigrant to Puerto Rico. ScottyBerg (talk) 13:25, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
I posted a notice here at the WP:Reliable sources noticeboard asking for more input on the sourcing issues. --Noleander (talk) 13:35, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
  • Only immigrants and descendants as per reliable sources verifying such. Surnames don't prove a thing. Anyone who knows a lick about immigration knows how often people changed their surnames upon arrival to new lands for a variety of reasons. Others changed their surnames generations later.Griswaldo (talk) 13:32, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
    Disclaimer I came here after seeing the RS/N post about the RFC.Griswaldo (talk) 13:42, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
  • Commenting due to RS/N post - The purpose of an image is not to introduce information to the article, but to illustrate information that is stated in the main text of the article. That text is what needs to be properly sourced (per WP:V). When this is the case, the next question is whether a given image does or does not illustrate what is said in the text. If we are to include an image of a specific person, then the text should mention that person (and the text should be cited). Occasionally, an article may benefit from an image that is only tangentially related to the text of the article... in such cases, the tangential connection needs to be made clear through an appropriate caption. That caption would need a source to make the connection clear. So... to use the example of Mayor O'Neill... if he is mentioned in the text as being of Irish descent (which would need to be properly cited) then there is no need to include a citation with the image... if he is not mentioned in the text, then the caption would need a citation to verify that he is of Irish descent. Blueboar (talk) 14:14, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
  • Again, a comment after seeing the RS/N post. An unsourced assertion that a name is Irish constitutes WP:OR, and an assertion that someone of that name is descended from Irish immigrants even more so. As Blueboar states, any images need evidence to back them up, either in the main article or in the caption. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:37, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
    • One of the issues which has been clear by Noleander to myself, the principal opponent is the fact that the article is about immigration and not about those are notable and who may be of Irsih descent. It seems then that it would be best to post images of those who are direct descendants, however those images are close toimpossible to find. Even though I believe that the proper terminology was used in the infobox, I will agree that the removal of the images would be the best thing to do and thereby bringing this issue to an end. Tony the Marine (talk) 19:49, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
      Done. ScottyBerg (talk) 21:13, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
  • Can we agree in archiving this discussion, since a solution has been reached? I mean what's the use of someone adding to a discussion a month from now when things have been taken care of. Tony the Marine (talk) 23:56, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
    Since issues of the same or similar kind keep erupting in this article, I think it's wise to keep it open for the time being. ScottyBerg (talk) 00:25, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
  1. ^ American Idol: Scotty McCreey Called "True Artist" by Jennifer Lopez, Confirms Puerto Rican Heritage from Fox News 5 May 2011
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