Talk:Irish name

Gaeltacht names

I've added info about Gaeltacht usage. I don't unfortunately know the origins of this or how long it's been around for. I also changed the first line because 'traditional Irish names' to me immediately evoked the likes of Coilin Phadgraig Sheamais rather than Tomas Mac Giolla.Palmiro 22:02, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

I am going to add some additional information to this section as this particular naming system survives in some areas outside the Gaeltacht. But the only areas I am aware of are in the Sperrin upland parts of counties Tyrone and Derry - these were Gaeltacht (or "breac gaeltacht") areas at the time of the ordinance survey of the 1840's, and an examination of the 1901 census returns reveals a surprising number of surviving native Irish speakers (who then must have died out during the twentieth century). Despite that this particular naming convention continued in the Sperrins. It has obviously been around along time and must predate the plantation of Ulster as it still occurs (to my knowledge) in counties Donegal, Derry, Tyrone and Kerry despite the fact that a common Irish language corrider connecting these areas ceased to exist centuries ago - this would be an very interesting area for research. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Owenreagh (talk • contribs) 01:24, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

5th/6th July edits

Hello Angr. First off, you have done a fantastic job on this article (which is now largely under the Epithets and Surnames and Prefixes sections. I edited the block writing into italics for purely visual reasons, as it looks better (I think! Hope you agree!) I added the second paragraph under Epithets about Luke More and Luke Beg to fill it out a bit (also because Luke Beg Gibbons is my maternal great-great great grandfather)

I'd love to see any more detail you might wish to add to what you've already put in, because its vastly better than what I originally wrote. Also, the idea of contrasting Gaelic and Anglicized names was a very good idea; I hope you don't mind that I expanded it.

Looking forward to reading more of your articles, and perhaps even working with you in future. Go raibh maith agat. Fergananim

I also Expanded on the Irish/Anglicised Comparrison with Aindriú/Andrew (My Great Grandfather and Sons Name) and Also My own Name, I was Christened Daniel but have been dubbed Domhainall since I can remember, I also added Aoife and Eva as it is Commonnly used but Eva is Generally accepted as a Slavic name. 194.73.150.2 11:36, 27 October 2005 (UTC) Domhainall

I made some corrections: Aindriú is etymologically the same as Andrew, so I removed it. The most common Irish spellings of your name are Domhnall and Dónall, so I changed that too. As for Eva, it's a Biblical name (the Latinized form of the Greekified form of Hebrew Hawwah), so it's not just Slavic. --Angr/_{tɔk tə mi} 16:53, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Usage Questions

I thought that for married women Uí could be used inplace of both Ó and Mac. I'm not an expert, but I'm pretty sure I remember seeing or hearing that usage. Also isn't "MacAleese" the maiden name of President MacAleese? Should the Irish version of her name be Máire Nic Ghiolla Íosa then -- or is she following the example/precedent set by Máire Mhac an tSaoi?

I've never heard of using Uí for a Mac name, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Mary McAleese's maiden name is Leneghan, so the Irish version of her maiden name is Máire Uí Lionnacháin. Her husband is Martin McAleese (Máirtín Mac Giolla Íosa). --Angr/_{tɔk tə mi} 04:15, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

But why on earth do Irish women use "Mhac" or "Mhic" at all, which means "son of"? For example - I can only find references to Mary Robinson as "Máire Mhic Róibín." In Scottish Gaelic, my own mother tongue, women always use "Nic." I'd be very interested to know why Irish usage is different. C. Macleod, 11:38, 7th June 2006

They're the genitive of the word for son; the word for "wife" bean can be included but is often left out as understood. "Máire Mhic Róibín" is short for "Máire bean Mhic Róibín" (Mary, wife of the Son of Robin), because Robinson is her married name. Ní and Nic are used with the maiden name. Angr (talk) 08:52, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, of course. Actually, you're more consistent in this then than we are. We use Nic for both maiden names and married names. Ceud (céad) taing. C. MacLeòid

Merge With Irish Given Names

Should the articles, Irish name and Irish given names be merged?

Why Anglicised?

I would like to see included in the article why names (personal names, place names) are anglicised. Is it required? Is there a systematic way? Personal names and place names in foreign languages (those already written in the Latin alphabet) are not usually anglicised.

Other examples I can think of is in Belgium, Finland, and Switzerland because of their bilingualism/multilingualism. But in those cases they usually apply to place names. --Kvasir 08:36, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid I don't really understand what you're asking. --Angr/talk 09:05, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm asking instead of anglicising names like "Padraig mac Aedh Ó Proinntigh" into "Patrick Brontë", why aren't Irish name kept the way it is when appeared in English-language (or other languages) media? For example, French names are not anglicised when appeared in English-language media. Also I want to know if there is a systematic way that Irish names are anglicised, ie: how does "Padraig" become "Patrick"? Are their pronunciations similar? --Kvasir 09:36, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

It's because for many centuries English was the prestige language in Ireland, and for a few centuries speaking Irish was forbidden by law. If you wanted to be taken seriously as a person of education and breeding, you used an English name. In the case of Pádraig and Patrick, the anglicization is clear because they're both derived from the same Latin name Patricius. In the case of other pairs like Cathal and Charles, they're not etymologically related to each other, and the anglicization is just based on tradition. Angr/talk 09:50, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

But are both versions of the names "official"? Do they both appear on a passport and carry the same authority, for example? --Kvasir 00:26, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

When applying for passports Irish Citizens have a choice of whether they use the English or Irish versions of their name, regardless of what is on their birth certificate. Also it is permitted to have an English first name and Irish surname. A note is included on the passport stating what their name was recorded at birth as.78.16.104.48 (talk) 16:53, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Oh thats really interesting. I read somewhere a couple years ago about a Scot who was trying to register his daughters surname in Scottish Gaelic - and the register office barred him from doing it. [1] Though, after an outcry he was allowed to give his daughter a Gaelic name, i wonder if people still have troubles with the Scottish Government over Gaelicising their names.--Celtus (talk) 09:53, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Before Ireland was independent, I'm sure only the English version was official. Today I'm not sure, but I suspect everyone uses either their English name or their Irish name as their official name, so only one would appear on passports, etc. Angr/talk 06:36, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

This is indeed the case, but most people who generally use the english form for official purposes would use the Irish form when speaking or writing in Irish. Palmiro | Talk 08:58, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Ok, thanks. This answers only part of my question though. I'm wondering if solely tradition dictates how names are anglicised. In the article it lists Irish people who are mostly known for their English names, are the Irish versions dervied based on common practice or are they actual official Irish versions. See a similar discussion under HK Government Cantonese romanisation in Talk:Hong_Kong_Government_Cantonese_Romanisation for what i'm trying to get at. --Kvasir 08:00, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

I think it depends on the person. In the list of people better known by their English names, we have both Geoffrey Keating and Douglas Hyde. Now Keating was a native Irish speaker; I'm sure as far as his parents were concerned, his surname was Céitinn and his first name Seathrún. But he's universally known in English as Geoffrey Keating, due to the prejudice against Irish. So in his case, his English name is derived from his Irish name. Hyde on the other hand was a native English speaker, and as far as his parents were concerned, his surname was Hyde and his first name Douglas. But when he became interested in Irish and wanted to use and promote it, he also wanted an Irish name, so he "translated" Douglas "back" to Dubhghlas and Hyde "back" to de hÍde. So in his case, his Irish name is derived from his English name. But this double use is mostly historical. I think today in Ireland you have only one official name, either Irish or English, and if you choose to translate it into the other language, that's strictly informal, and based on common practice and tradition. Does that answer your question? Angr/talk 08:16, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Pretty much, thanks. I asked this because I fail to see much relationship between Irish and English spelling without any knownledge of Irish pronunciation (such as I). Neither Irish nor English are phonetic to begin with, so there's one problem. If there is no such system in place, is in then possible to have different anglicised spelling of the same name? Oh yeah, it would be nice to incorporate all the above info into the article, or have a new article dealing with Anglicisation of Irish names specifically, which is what led me to this article in the first place. --Kvasir 08:53, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, there's a big difference between this case and the Hong Kong case you linked to above. There, it's just a matter of "How do we spell Chinese names using the Latin alphabet?" This is really more like translation; the saint known as Patrick in English is known as Pádraig in Irish, so people named Patrick in English use Pádraig as their Irish name, and people known as Pádraig in Irish use Patrick in English. And in other cases, the relationship was more vague but became well established: the Irish name Sorcha has no etymological connection with the English (of Hebrew origin) Sarah, but they're both girls' names that start with S and then have a vowel and then an R, so someone decided to "translate" Sorcha as Sarah, and today the equation Sorcha=Sarah is as firmly planted in the common conciousness in Ireland as Pádraig=Patrick. But by no means is either equation set down officially in Irish law. Angr/talk 09:10, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm actually more interested in family names and place names, which are not as easy as paring Christian names equivalent. I do see quite a few similarities between the cases in HK and Ireland. Both places had English as the "more official" language in the de facto bilingualism situation. Irish and Chinese are from a very different language families from English and none of them are phonetic. HK government uses a non-standardised scheme that has become more or less the convention that everyone uses. And as we've just learnt from this discussion, there seems to be no official standard for anglicising Irish names either, yet some sort of system is in place so that there is little argument over which English version is better. The HK romanisation is mostly transliteration of sounds, with a few actual translations. The Irish anglicisation seems to be a mix of translation and phonologic transliteration. Is that the case? --Kvasir 07:10, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, just on the legal status of Irish names: I don't think it is codified in statute law, but in practice the Irish version of the name certainly appears to have full legal status even where the person's official documents such as birth certificate etc all use the English form. I'm pretty sure I've seen legal instruments signed by Irish Ministers of State using the Irish form of their name when they have also signed other ones using the English form.

As regards official systems: until 1921 all administration in Ireland was done in English, so nobody had any form of their name that had any official status but the English form. This allowed English forms of surnames to be established pretty definitively for almost every individual family (though not as an equivalent for particular Irish surnames: often different people with the same Irish name would adopt different English versions of it). If there is any uncertainty nowadays, it is generally over the Irish even though that is the original form, historically speaking. My surname, for example, is almost always the correct equivalent for a given Anglicised surname; but my mother's surname we only know theEnglish for, and any Irish reconstruction is uncertain, as there are several Irish surnames which have been Anglicised to this or similar forms, with widel different origins and meanings. All it is possible to do in this case, unless you want to engage in detailed and probably hopeless geneaological research, is to pick the most likely Irish form on the basis of the area of origin of the family - which of course is far from certain. Palmiro | Talk 10:19, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

As regards your comment that "a mix of translation and phonologic transliteration", yes, that would be correct, there are also cases of assimilation to similar English surnames and I think, though no example springs to mind, of mistranslation. You have to remember that all these Anglicisations were done quite informally and without any guiding system, but on the other hand the practice of Anglicising (or romanising) Irish names goes back to before the final conquest of Ireland at the beginning of the C17.Palmiro | Talk 10:31, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Just to throw in my two cents: It's not entirely true that "personal names and place names in foreign languages (those already written in the Latin alphabet) are not usually anglicised." In fact, it's done all the time, especially when the foreign language name is difficult for an English speaker to pronounce. For example:

The Polish "Warsawa"(with the W's pronounced as V's, hence in Polish it's pronounced "Varsava") is translated into "Warsaw", "Wienn" becomes Vienna, España becomes Spain and "Österreich" becomes Austria. A most extreme example is the fact that "Deutchland" somehow becomes "Germany" in English.

It's only natural for someone like myself, a native English speaker, to be bewildered when confronted by a name like "Dubhghlas". I'd have no idea how to pronounce it.

I'd just like to point out that being neither ethnically Irish nor English I don't mean to make any political statement.

What I really came here to say was that I'm a bit dissapointed that this article is entirely devoted to a "purist" examination of Irish names, and doesn't bother to explain how those names are used in practice, not only in Ireland, but in the Irish diaspora.

For example, according to the article, if one's name is "O'Brien", it means that that person's grandfather was named "Brien". Now I'm a Canadian, and I know that if a colleague of mine is named "O'Brien", it's unlikely that it's because his grandfather was named "Brien." It's almost certain that "O'Brien" is his name because it's been his family name for generations.

It's actually very similar to English. Once, if there was a man named "John", his son's surname would be "Johnson". Of course this is no longer the case, and if a man has the surname "Johnson", it's almost certain that "Johnson" has been his family name for generations.

Again, I'm neither English nor Irish by descent and it is not my intention to create any political controversy. I'm simply a curious fan of all things Irish.Loomis51 01:56, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Most people use the name given to them by thir parents in Ireland nowadays, So if they were baptised Patrick thats what they would be on Offical forms and so on. The same if they were christend Padric. For Example My name is Kenneth Hynes and I'd never ever call my self Cionnaith O'hEidhin foer any reason, even if I was writing or talking in Irish. Ken 21:19, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Partial list of Gaelic surnames

Regarding the list of "Gaelic surnames" wouldn't it be better to actually list surnames in Irish with their equivalent in English as oppose to examples of how people with their name written in Irish (Douglas Hyde etc etc.). I'm thinking sorta like the list that exists on [2]. Any opinions? Dubhthach

Anglicised Gaelic names are a problem. For example my own surname is "mac Cárthaigh" (and I never use an anglicised version.) This has been anglicised as McCarthy, MacCarthy, McCarthey, Macarthy.. and so on, none of which are used by my family (and we are all native English speakers.) When ignortant (Irish) people ask me "is that Irish for McCarthy" I just say no it isn't. Also People such as Gráinne Seoige (as an example mentioned in the article) are not known by an anglicised name so there is no point mentioning what a possible anglicisation might be when there isn't one in use. It's nonsense.

Even on the list of Gaelic firstnames: Grace is not the same as Gráinne, Charles is not the same as Cathal, etc, there are many Gaelic names that are not translations of English names they exist in their own right and have a distinct meaning and origin.

Something wrong

There is just something wrong with this article giving an anglicised form for names like Tadhg, Cathal, Sorcha, Aoife etc etc etc. Of all the people I know with these names, I have never once thought of them as Timothy, Charles, Sarah, Eve etc etc etc. Those names are foreign to the person, character and my knowledge of them. They are not their names no more than Charles Windsor is Cathal Windsor. Equally if I know somebody called George, Seoirse would be a foreign name to the person I know. He is just George. Full stop. I doubt I'm alone in the general feeling of alienness these "translations" evoke. If I know somebody called Tadhg he is just Tadhg, and nothing else. This part of the article does not reflect reality in Ireland. El Gringo 02:44, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

That reality, however, is comparatively new. For centuries, children named (for example) Tadhg were told when they got to school that their name wasn't Tadhg, it was Timothy. And even today, children named (for example) Sarah are told when they get to school that their "Irish name" (to be used when Irish is spoken) is Sorcha. Angr (talk) 08:54, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Help?

My surname is McNeill, I was wondering what the Irish spelling of it would be. My Dad is of Protestant upbringing, so I am guessing that the name perhaps comes from Scotland? Although his family have lived in Ireland, mainly Donegal for generations. I have guessed that it is "Mac Néill" but i doubt that is correct. Can Someone verify this for me? Thanks.

Your guess at the Irish spelling is completely correct. But you're right that it's probably ultimately of Scottish origin if your family is Protestant, in which case the Scottish Gaelic spelling is... Mac Nèill. —Angr 14:57, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Mac Nèill is the latest, counterintuitive spelling -- traditionally it used to be MacNéill as well (it's pronounced with e:, not ɛ:). Besides, some Ulster Protestants are of Irish origin -- perhaps there used to be variation between Ó Néill and Mac Néill, like between Ó Cathail and Mac Cathail. 89.231.116.65 (talk) 23:53, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

I would wonder why someone would want the Irish spelling of a name they suspect is of Scottish origin!

Your father being Protestant in upbringing in no way indicates whether or not his name is Irish or Scottish (I'm afraid Angr is in error on this point).

However, I can tell you that your surname is definitely Irish in origin. Whereabouts your family came from in more recent times is something you may (or may not) want to find out. For example, most MacNeills in Ulster became Protestant after the Reformation. However, the MacNeills of the Glens of Antrim remained Roman Catholic. You are descended, through your father's ancestry, from Niall of the Nine Hostages.

What you'd need to find out is if your dad's ancestors ever changed the form of the surname in the past, and what they'd changed it from. This would give you some indication as to a place of origin for your more recent ancestors. Ultimately though, they all lead back to Niall. --Mal 10:26, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

It's my understanding that the origin of my surname, Gilmore, is Mac Giolla Mhuire. However, the only English form listed for Mac Giolla Mhuire in the article is Murray. I want to add Gilmore to the list, but I haven't been able to find a credible citation. Does anyone have any information? 71.41.220.149 16:50, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

As I understand it that name relates to both. The Giolla prefix means servant and so appears frequently and may be dropped. Often there is no direct translation for a surname but several variations. In the case of Kelly, it is usually assumed that it is Ó Ceallaigh or more rarely Mac Ceallaigh. However Ó Ceallaigh is also the base for Queally, Kiely and Kellogg (though Kellogg also appears with Old English roots). There may have been several septs of the name Mac Giolla Mhuire, particularly in that it refers to being the servant of Mary (likely the Virgin Mary as in the case of Mac Giolla Phadraig/St. Patrick, Mac Giolla Bhríde/St. Brigid, Mac Giolla Easpaig/servant of the Bishop). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.120.161.6 (talk) 11:45, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Fitz

Surely Fitz- cannot derive from French fils but rather from {Hiberno-)Norman fiz (son)? As can be seen, for example in The Deeds of the Normans in Ireland: "Fiz Coleman, le riche reis" (son of Colmán, the great king). Man vyi 16:56, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Sure, but didn't the Normans come to Ireland from France?! If you read the article on Fitz you will see that it is in fact a dialectal form of fils. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.120.161.6 (talk) 11:48, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

There's no information in the article about the rendition of 'Fitz' into Irish---which is 'Mac' as far as I know. 89.231.116.65 (talk) 02:48, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Prefixes

Just going purely by what my Irish language teacher used to teach us, "Ó" is simply from the Irish ó meaning "of" (not inherently meaning "grandson" at all), and meant "son of" the same as "Mac". "Fitz" was a prefix taken to mean "bastard/illegitimate son of". Given that he moonlighted as a sometime language advisor to the Irish government, I tend to lend weight to his words; is anyone else familiar with these interpretations? Speed and Sleep (talk) 12:28, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Incorrect, I'm afraid. Ó= grandson/descendent of ('Ní' for daughters) mac= son of ('Nic' for daughters). Fitz means no such thing. Fitz is the Norman version of 'Mac'. Fitzgerald= Mac Gearailt. Bastards were just referred to by that word or 'base'. 86.42.111.160 (talk) 06:17, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, 'ó' meaning 'of', Scottish cognate '(bh)o', is a preposition and isn't declined (though it is conjugated, as some put it). The inflected 'Ó' of the surnames, Scottish cognate 'ogha', is clearly a different word. Also, check the article 'Fitz' for a reference about the 'bastard' meaning. 89.231.116.65 (talk) 01:45, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Spanification of Irish Surnames

I have a question about Irish Surnames. Many Irish immigrated to Latin America and assimilated to their new home countries. Some Irish immigrants went far to the assimilation process and Spanified their surnames. For Example: O'Donoghue becomes O'Donojú, Sullivan becomes Sólivan, Murphy becomes Morfi, O'Farrell becomes O'Ferral, and O'Brien sometimes becomes Obregón. Should this be added in this article or it is not really that important? Lehoiberri (talk) 04:20, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Interesting. Ara sure go for it; Dónall Spáinneach Caomhánach would be happy. At least the Spanish showed up in 1602! (1601 if you're a heretic, of course)86.42.111.160 (talk) 06:12, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Lenition of C and G following Nic/Mhic

I have made a small correction to the article. In Irish, neither C nor G are lenited following nic or mhic: Síle Nic Gearailt, Muintir Mhic Gearailt, Máire Nic Cárthaigh, Muintir Mhic Cárthaigh. (See Chapter 10 of Graiméar Gaeilge na mBráithre Críostaí). An Muimhneach Machnamhach (talk) 18:03, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Derry/Londonderry

Per IMOS:

To avoid constant renaming of articles (and more), keep a neutral point of view, promote consistency in the encyclopedia, and avoid Stroke City-style terms perplexing to those unfamiliar with the dispute, a compromise solution was proposed and accepted by many users[clarify] regarding the Derry/Londonderry name dispute. Use Derry for the city and County Londonderry for the county in articles. The naming dispute can be discussed in the articles when appropriate.

To prevent edit warring and disputes, please consider the above. If someone does make an edit that conflicts with this, please Assume Good Faith and refrain from labelling as vandalism. GeneralBelly (talk) 18:36, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Irish surname Hassan

"Hassan may have an eastern look but in Ireland it is the anglicized form of Ó hOsáin."

Do you have more information about this unusual Irish surname Hassan. How from Ó hOsáin the name can be anglicized to become Hassan or the other variations? 72.137.225.183 (talk) 02:33, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

I logged in to read the Irish name entry because I saw it cited elsewhere and was concerned about what appeared to be dubious info being disseminated. In skimming the piece, I noticed the material regarding Ó hOsáin and called my nephew to bring it to his attention (he's from Derry and Hasson is his surname). He was unimpressed by my discovery, having read it previously himself. However, as we spoke, I was skimming the talk page and noticed your query - so, you lucked out, I suppose. Enough blither, you asked a question.

As to "how" it can be anglicized, that's not so very difficult to understand - quite honestly, the anglicization is significantly more straightforward than many others. The breathy "h" prefixes a name the Gaelic of which would ordinarily pronounced as "ush-een" and was incorporated into it by English speakers. The variant spellings - Hasson, Hassen, Hassin, Hassan - all essentially pronounced alike, are no more than the typical vowel substitutions encountered in many names (and words, for that matter).

The meaning is "of the family of" or "sons of" or "children of" Osáin - a celebrated pagan poet of Ireland, said to have been the last of the legendary Fianna. He was spirited away to Tír na nÓg - the Land of the Ever Young - by the beautiful Niamh.

After a time, Osáin begged that she allow him to return to Ireland to see his father and his people once more. On arrival, he found the Fianna to have been 300 years gone in the time he had been away - a time that was but brief to him. Accidently thrown from the magic white steed on which he had traveled, he fell to the ground, touching Ireland's soil - against which Niamh had warned.

Immediately, he became again a mortal, an aged blind man. He was brought to Patrick, who was then in the process of Christianizing the country and who recognized his name from tales he had heard from the bards. At the bishop's behest, Osáin recited the ancient cycle of legends. In turn, was promised by Patrick that all Irish who entertained men by honest stories of bravery and honor would gain the reward of heaven.

Best I can do, hope it answered your question. Irish Melkite (talk) 17:03, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your really good answer. 72.137.225.183 (talk) 19:32, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Additives

I've added a section on additives (although I'm not sure that's the correct term) and I've taken Ryan as an example as there many different Ryan sub-groups in East Limerick and West Tipperary. Most additives is this area are a mixture of place (e.g. Ryan Bog), appearance (Ryan Black), ancestor (Ryan Luke) or trade (Ryan Tailor) and the additive appears after the surname.

I have an idea that additives in West Cork O'Sullivans mainly derive from ancestor and appear before the surname such as in Cork footballers Kevin Jer O'Sullivan and Brendan Jer O'Sullivan. Could anyone confirm this? And would anyone know how similarly-named people are differentiated in other parts of the country? Sean an Scuab (talk) 19:12, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

I think its mentioned further up the page how familes will add a nickname etc to their surname to help differentiate between families of the same name. It happened all over the country and still goes on in Mayo and Galway and probably other counties. Jaqian (talk) 09:58, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Removing unsourced names of famous people

Irish name#Notable examples of firstnames and surnames is, at the time I'm writing this, 100% unsourced and contains apparently speculative names that are unencyclopedic. I am deleting many (most?) of the items in that section, as they are for people who were never even residents of Ireland. I also intend to delete any other names with no evidence of common usage in Irish-language Wikipedia:Reliable sources. Removal per Wikipedia guidelines related to WP:OR, WP:RS, and sometimes WP:BLP, including:

• Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Ireland-related articles)#Correct Irish orthography in naming people #3/#4: "It is not acceptable to ... translate the person's forenames or surnames and present this combination as the person's name in Irish. If someone did not use the Irish version of his or her name, it is not appropriate or encyclopaedic to "invent" such names, as this constitutes original research."
• Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not for things made up one day

Just so people don't think I'm crazy, here are examples of people alleged to possess dual-language names without any reference whatsoever:

• Charles Carroll of Carrollton given as "Cathal Chearbhaill", when his own Wikipedia article notes a different Irish family spelling (Ó Cearbhaill, lords of Éile) with citation for his ancestors.
• Walt Disney given as "Walt d'Isney", an unsourced spelling that looks neither Irish nor Norman French (where it was actually "d'Isigny").
• Henry Ford given as "Énrí Ó Fuarráin", which appears nowhere on Google except on Wikipedia mirrors.
• U.S. President John F. Kennedy and his brothers, all 3 generations beyond immigrant Patrick Kennedy (1823–1858), all given allegedly Irish-language names. (I suppose they could have shown up in Irish-language news in the 1960s, but that certainly requires a reliable source.)
• Ed O'Neill (Al in Married with Children) given as "Éadbhard Ó Néill".

If I accidentally misjudge who has a legitimate Irish-language name in real-life WP:RS use, re-add with references of course. For tonight I am leaving people who, at first glance, are likely to have an Irish-language name in normal usage; but, as many of these names involve living people, these names need to get reliable sources soon or be deleted also. And though I've mentioned mainly Irish-language translation of English-language names, this applies to the opposite list also. --Closeapple (talk) 08:43, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

More comprehensive removal

Once again, some folks have added famous people's artificial "Irish names" with no evidence of the people or their parents being referred to with an Irish-language name. So, to solve this, I've gone through the whole list, removed 39 unsupported examples, and left 34 names in the original list.

It is possible that a few of these people were referred to with an Irish name in Irish literature at some point, but there is no reference to show their full names were used — that is, it seems evident that the sources for the names below were not contemporary Irish, but artificial dictionary conversions in violation of Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Ireland-related articles)#Naming people.

Below is a list of the apparently synthesized names removed. I've explicitly added an asterisk before each name (a sign to linguists that it is invented) and crossed each name out, so that there is no doubt when someone searches for the name that it is not meant to be repeated without proper sources.

Common name	Fake name	Google results and comments
Ray Bolger	*Réamann Uallas O'Boguidhir	only this article
Diamond Jim Brady	*Séamas Buth Chanain Mac Bradaigh	only mirrors of this article
Walter Brennan	*Ualtar Aindriú Ó Braonáin	only Wikipedia, and spelled differently than Moya Brennan's name
Patrick Brontë	*Padraig mac Aedh Ó Proinntigh	born Patrick Brunty and changed it himself to Brontë; no note of him ever using "Ó Proinntigh" or its earlier clan name
Daniel J. Callaghan	*Dónal J. Ó Cellachán	only mirrors of this article
William M. Callaghan	*Liam M. Ó Cellachán	same as Daniel
Michael Cavanaugh (actor)	*Mícheál Caomhánach	no obvious references to the actor (or anyone else notable enough for Wikipedia)
Michael Joe Costello	*Mícheál Seosamh Mac Coisdealbha	only mirrors of this article
John Charles Daly	*Seán Searlás Ó Dálaigh	only mirrors of this article
James Doohan	*Seán Montgomerie Doohan	only mirrors of this article
Sir Arthur Conan Doyle	*Artúr Conon Ó Dubhghaill	only mirrors of this article
Mike Farrell	*Mícheál Seosamh Uí Fhearghail	only mirrors of this article
John Cameron Fogerty	*Seán Cameron Ó Fogartaigh	only this article
William Russell Grace	*Liam Ruiséil Grace	only mirrors of this article
Sir William Johnson, 1st Baronet	*Liam Mac Seáin - O’Neill Uí Feá	only mirrors of this article
Arthur MacMorrough Kavanagh	*Artúr Mac Murchadha Caomhánach	only mirrors of this article
Geoffrey Keating	*Seathrún Céitinn	only mirrors of this article
Paul John Keating	*Pól Seán Céitinn	only this article
Robert Francis Kennedy	*Roibeárd Proinsias Ó Cinnéide	only old mirrors of Wikipedia articles
Edward Moore "Ted" Kennedy	*Éadbhard Ó Mordha Ó Cinnéide	only mirrors of Wikipedia articles
Colm Meaney	*Colm Ó Maonaigh	only mirrors of Wikipedia articles; but there's an unrelated bicycler
Annie Moore (immigrant)	*Aine Ní Mordha	only this article
Audie Murphy	*Audie Ó Murchú	only mirrors of this article
John Murtha	*Seán Ó Muircheartaigh	only mirrors of this article; also some unrelated Irish people
Pat O'Brien (actor)	*Liam Seosamh Padraic Ó Briain	only mirrors of this article
John Carroll O'Connor	*Seán Chearbhaill Ó Conchobhair	only mirrors of this article
Gerald S. O'Loughlin	*Gearailt S. Ó Laighin	only mirrors of this article
Eugene McCarthy	*Eoghan Seosamh Mac Carthaigh	only this article
Edward O'Neill, 2nd Baron O'Neill	*Éadbhard Ó Néill	only mirrors of this article
Francis O'Neill	*Proinsias Ó Néill	mirrors of this article, and an article at [3] noting an album's haphazard changing of people's names into Irish
John F. O'Ryan	*Seán Phroinsias Ó Riain	only mirrors of this article
Hayden Rorke	*Liam Énrí Ó Ruairc	only mirrors of this article
Cornelius Ryan	*Conchúir Ó Riain	only mirrors of this article
James M. Gavin	*Séamus Ó Riain	(born James Nally Ryan); only mirrors of this article and mentions of Séamus Ó Riain, President of the Gaelic Athletic Association
Paddy Ryan (boxer)	*Pádraig Ó Riain	only mirrors of this article; but lots of others for people really named "Pádraig Ó Riain"
John L. Sullivan	*Seán Labhrás Ó Súilleabháin	only mirrors of this article
Spencer Tracy	*Spencer Ó Treasaigh	only mirrors of this article
M. Emmet Walsh	*Mícheál Emmett Breathnach	only mirrors of this article
William Butler Yeats	*Liam de Buitléir Yeats	only mirrors of this article

In addition, there is John Sullivan (claimed as *Seán Ó Súilleabháin), but the American-born American revolution general's signature looks like "Jn Sullivan" or "Jn oSullivan". It is amazing how many American-born celebrities were in this list. Must be some kind of "more Irish than the Irish" phenomenon among some "helpful" American editors. --Closeapple (talk) 21:45, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

It is self-evidently absolute nonsense to suggest that Seathrún Céitinn, to take one example above, is a "fake name" with "only mirrors to this article". Anybody familiar with the history of sixteenth- or seventeenth-century Ireland wouldn't say something as silly. 86.42.22.86 (talk) 22:02, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Removal of Norman-Irish surnames?

As far as I remember, de Búrca, de Róiste, de Tiúit, de Brún, de Faoite, de Barra, Tóibín, Mac Coisdealbha among many others were all on this page. I think they should be returned to it. 93.107.7.115 (talk) 10:28, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Liam - William

Shouldn't the anglicized version of Liam (Will) or Uilliam/Uiliam (William) be shown? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.78.213.31 (talk) 03:50, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

List of names

This has been returned to the article with no attempt to justify its encyclopaedic relevance. It is an incomplete and uninformative list. I would suggest that a third opinion be sought, but maybe Angr, or anyone else who thinks there is some merit in this inclusion, will actually try to defend its inclusion. Kevin McE (talk) 23:02, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

If there is no second opinion, I can't refer it to third opinion. If I am asked to bring it to talk under BRD, someone else needs to discuss. Alternatively, if no-one is willing to put the encyclopaedic case for the inclusion of this section, then I will delete the section as uncontested. Kevin McE (talk) 09:04, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

After looking at everything, I've gotten this idea: we transwiki the surname list to Wiktionary and that is it. What do you say? m'encarta (t) 23:07, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

If such lists are something that Wiktionary admits, I have no objection. Kevin McE (talk) 17:16, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Where is the lovely list of Irish Surnames gone? I looked at the page history and the list was still there on the 21st December 2014. It was one of the most useful lists of Irish Surnames anywhere on the internet. Wikipedia has loads of pages that list different types of surnames, and the list should be put back. If the list doesn't fit properly on a Wikipedia called "Irish name", then the list should be put on a brand new page called "List of Irish Surnames". Common you guys, don't delete what is a very useful list of Irish Surnames for anyone doing surname research or family history. Please put the list back on the page, or create the new page and just copy and paste the "List of Irish Surnames". John37309 (talk) 09:40, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Removed (most of) the made-up stuff again from 2016. Per WP:PROVEIT, they are not to be re-added without Wikipedia:Reliable sources. Imagining what a specific person's English name would be in Irish Gaelic, based on generalizations of how some words in the name are usually connected, is a violation of WP:SYNTHESIS and has no place on Wikipedia. A reliable source would be something like a real, mainstream publication, like a long-standing popular newspaper, referring to a specific person naturally with a specific name; or a person signing their own name in Irish or actually using their own Gaelic-based name. --Closeapple (talk) 07:48, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

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How to list Irish names alphabetically

I may have missed this in the article - sorry if I did. If I didn't - the article could do with giving the reader help on how to list Irish names alphabetically (it's why I came to the page). For instance, would Parthalán Ó hEachthiarn be lister under O, H or E? And Eithne Ní Uallacháin under N or U? Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 09:52, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

@Shhhnotsoloud: They're alphabetized under O and N respectively. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 18:38, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

@Angr: I know that's the convention in majority English-language cultures, but can you cite an Irish-language authority for that? If I were indexing a book, for example, then it would seem desirable for Proinsias Ó Maonaigh to be found near to his daughter Mairéad Ní Mhaonaigh. But perhaps that is only even a question because the patronymic system has mostly broken down and evolved into a family name system. Contrast with Icelandic names, where the patronymic system is still in place, and people are alphabetised under their given name in the telephone directory.

(later) Well, I searched an Irish phone book and found 2 Ní Mhaonaigh, 2 Ó Maonaigh, and 846 Mooney. So I infer that the use of Irish names by people in Ireland is not at all common. Monxton (talk) 16:46, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

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The plural

I know the plural of Ó/Ua is Uí, which triggers lenition (thus Uí Dhónaill, Uí Mhurchú, etc.), and the plural of Mac is Mhic, which is apparently lenited by default (is it short for Clann Mhic?) and triggers lenition in the same way as Nic (thus Mhic Mhuireadhaigh but Mhic Cárthaigh), but what are the plurals of Ní and Nic, and do they trigger lenition in the same way as Uí and Mhic? I highly doubt Mná Ó/Mac would ever really be used (unless you're a polygamist – but then it would be Uí/Mic), but those are correct – right? Esszet (talk) 22:58, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

Anthony

@Sbbeef, Jnestorius, Asarlaí, Canterbury Tail, Mahagaja, Closeapple, Kevin McE, and Irish Melkite: I have been working on {{Anthony}}. I noticed that a lot of biographies show Antaine as the Irish name for Anthony/Tony. However, on this page the example shown presents Antoine Ó Raifteiri as an example of Antoine being the Irish name for Anthony. Can someone clarify this. Also, is there a female Irish name for this family of names?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:00, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

I'd say Antaine is the usual spelling; Antoine is a rare spelling presumably influenced by the French. There are also the forms Antóin and Antain. I don't know of any feminine equivalent. —Mahāgaja · talk 19:10, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

We already have Antoin in the template and there are no biographies on WP with Antain. May I ask why the page presents an example of the rare spelling rather than the usual spelling? Also are there popular surname variations within this family of names. I see a page for Darragh MacAnthony and George McAnthony, but I don't see any related surnames that have multiple subjects.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:28, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

User:Mahagaja, I should have pinged.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:38, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

I suppose the reason the rare spelling is the only one found on this page is that Antoine Ó Raifteiri is much more famous than the various men named Antaine listed at that page (all 20th- and 21st-century athletes, few if any of whom actually use the Irish form of their name). I don't get the impression it's a particularly common name in Ireland, unlike Romance-speaking Catholic countries where you can't swing a dead cat without hitting an Antoine or Antonio. —Mahāgaja · talk 21:53, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

User:Mahagaja beware of dead cats. Anthony has been among the top 100 male baby names in Ireland every year from 1998 to 2018.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:40, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

Oh, okay. I haven't been to Ireland since 2000, and I wasn't friends with very many 2-year-olds while I was there. —Mahāgaja · talk 15:34, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

User:Mahagaja Well not too many babies tell you their names. Usually, their parents make the announcements. Also, the family of names was most popular in the 1970s in the U.S. so it is most likely that it was more popular when you were there than after 2000.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 17:23, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

I'm absolutely uncertain as to the frequency of Anthony as a baby name in Ireland - but I'm more uncertain that thinkbabynames.com is a reliable source for support of data. Irish Melkite (talk) 05:17, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

Other Irish Surname Prefixes (Fitz, Kil Gil, Mal, Mul, & Dun) and Suffix (lin)

In order for this article to be more complete and comprehensive, the other Irish surname prefixes of Fitz, Kil Gil, Mal, Mul, & Dun should also be listed in this article. There are many historical articles that cover them and list that as Irish surname prefixes, such as this article and this article. They are also listed in the wiki article of List of family name affixes. Also listed on this list is Irish Surname suffix of lin, which appears in many Irish names. As the article stands, it borders on violating WP:NPOV. 79.154.28.57 (talk) 15:50, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

Hi. In terms of:

• "NPOV", can you expand on this concern a little bit more? Where is the neutrality or POV issue?
• "Dun" as a prefix, can you expand on where and how "Dun" is used as a prefix in Irish names? The only mention of "Dun" or "Dún" in the [linked article] is in relation to "Maol-dúin =lord of the Dun or fort". This is not a prefix. But the object. What Irish surnames use "Dun" or "Dún" (meaning fort) as a prefix? (Those that I can think of include "Dunn" or "Dunne". Or "Donegan" or "Donough" or similar. In each of these cases, Dun or Donn refers to dark or brown. As in brown-haired. And is not a reference to a fort(?)
• "Fitz" as a prefix, this is already covered no(?)

Thanks. Guliolopez (talk) 13:45, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

First of all, let us be clear and try to remember WP:GOODFAITH, when responding to other editors.

• I did not write that the article was violating WP:NPOV but rather that it borders on violating NPOV. The article clearly does border on NPOV. I make this clear in my initial discussion above. The article focuses excessively on “Mac” and “O”, while neglecting other such Irish Surname prefixes. I note from the above comments that “Fitz” had to be argued into the article and on reviewing the history of the article, I found it was reverted many times before it was finally granted inclusion within the article. This leads to, where in the article does it discuss the surname prefixes of “Kil”, “Gil”, “Mal”, and “Mul”? Surely, these are Irish surname prefixes and warrant some mention in the article, no?
• While I accept that “Mac” and “O” are more common in Ireland than the other surname prefixes of “Kil”, “Gil”, “Mal”, and “Mul” and therefore they will have more weight in the article, that does not mean the other surname prefixes should be disregarded.
• On identifying what is an Irish name or surname? Is this article referring to nationality, or people/tribe? How does it identify origin? Is it based on first recording of the surname or number of recordings of the surname within a jurisdiction as opposed to another or is it something else? Is it not possible that a surname can have a dual origin? It should be noted that “Mac” and to a slightly lesser extent “O” can be defined as Gaelic surname prefixes (representing Irish, Scottish, and Manx people) and not just as Irish surname prefixes. For example, "MacNair", and "MacLeish" or "O’Brolchain", and "O’Luingeachain" are surnames more common in Scotland than in Ireland. The fact is, there may be a legitimate argument that this article should be merged with the Wikipedia articles of Scottish Gaelic name and List of Scottish Gaelic surnames into a new article titled Gaelic names or surnames.
• How long does a surname have to be recorded in Ireland before it is recognised as being an Irish surname? Who decides if a surname, or indeed a prefix of a surname, should be included as Irish? Is it based on evidence from reputable people with knowledge on the subject or is it any article from any author who just has an interest in the subject? Maclysaght in his books; The Surnames of Ireland and More Irish Families, listed some surnames, that do not have any of the prefixes cited above, as Irish surnames. In fact, he also did this in his other books, as did other genealogists, such as Bernard Burke. For example, Maclysaght recognises the surname "Alcock" is first recorded in England but since it has been recorded in Ireland from the 17th century onwards, he considers it as an Irish name. Another name is "Barber" or "Barbour" which originally had the surname prefix of “Le” indicating that it is French. Maclysagh recognises that it has been recorded in France, England, and Scotland but since it has been recorded in Ireland from the 13th century, he considers it Irish.
• In regards to the use of “Dun” or “Dún” as a surname prefix for Irish or Gaelic surnames. Examples of this occurrence are: "Dunlap" or "Dunlop" (10th century Gaelic. The fort (Dún) at a muddy place (Lapach)), "Dunbar" (Gaelic words Dún (fort; fortress) Barr (top, or summit), "Dundee" (Dún (fort) De (from gaelic word deatach meaning smoke), and "Dunwoody" or "Dinwiddie" (Fort at the forest). While many of the surnames I have listed are noted to be common surnames in Scotland, the points I have made above stands. Maclysaght in his books; The Surnames of Ireland and More Irish Families identifies some of these surnames as Irish surnames. In some cases, he cites that many of these surnames were first recorded in Ireland before going to Scotland. I note that you had removed “Dun” as a surname prefix on the List of family name affixes. Now that I have provided you with examples of "Dun" being used as a prefix in surnames, I would appreciate it if you reverted your edit of removing the prefix from the list. Another Scottish surname prefix used is “Kirk” which means church and which emanates from the Scots, Scottish English, Ulster-Scots languages respectively. For example, "Kirkconnell" (the Church of Connell) and which emanates from Saint Connell or Cennell. This is very similar to the “Kil”, “Gil”, “Mal”, “Mul” surname prefixes which I have argued should be included.

I hope this answers all your questions79.154.28.57 (talk) 16:02, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

Hi. While there's a lot there, in terms of:

• WP:AGF. I don't understand the basis for your comment here. I asked three simple questions. No tone. No presumption of bad faith. I didn't say anything at all about any "violation" of NPOV. Or attribute any statement to you. I simply asked if you could "expand on this [NPOV] concern a little bit more". That is all.
• "Fitz-". Are you proposing a specific or additional change/addition to the existing text?
• "Dun-". The Dunlop (surname) article describes Dunlop as a Scottish name. As does The Surnames of Ireland / MacLysaght / 1969 / page 80. Maclysaght doesn't appear give it as an Irish name or propose the derivation you offer. The index of More Irish families / MacLysaght / 1996 / page 246 makes no mention of Dunlop or the other "Dun-" names you mention. The only mention of Dunbar, elsewhere in the text, appears to be when he refers to "the Scots poet Dunbar" on page 222. If "Dun-" (referring to "Dún" meaning a "fort") is consistently used as a prefix in lots of Irish surnames, I am not reading that from the sources mentioned. My read of the sources is that most Irish surnames, which start with "Don" or "Dun", are a reference to Dun or Donn meaning brown/dark. (A fort seems an odd thing to refer to in relation to a person. Where "fort" appears in Hiberno-Norman names, like "Forde", it is typically given back to the Norman/French meaning "strong"....)
• "Who decides if a surname [..] should be included as Irish?" In honesty I'm not following what change or addition you are proposing here. This article isn't (currently) a list of any/all Irish surnames. It seems to primarily deal with the common patronymic conventions for Irish-language names. Similar to the Scandinavian family name etymology article. If you are proposing to change the scope, and to open a discussion about what names/etc should be listed, can you expand a bit more on what is proposed?
• "Kil-", "Gil-" and "Mal-". As per the extract from the Celtic Surnames essay (in The Tongue of the Gael) / O Flannghaile / 1896 text you refer to, it seems to suggest that many of these prefixes have similar meaning (mainly "servant of" or "disciple of"). As in: Kilbride > Mac-Giolla-Bhrighde > servant of Brigid. Or Malone > Maol-Eoin > servant of St. John. If needed, I am happy to help add a short note (similar to and possibly near the "Fitz-" text) to the article covering this. Based on the ref you propose.

Slán. Guliolopez (talk) 02:41, 11 June 2023 (UTC)