Talk:Islam in the United States/Archive 6

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Archive 6

"Some progressive Muslims want mosques re-designed to make them more woman-friendly"

Actually, in the 1960s and 1970s, a number of mosques were already relatively "woman-friendly" in some respects, until a new wave of more recent immigrants to the U.S. insisted on imposing stricter customs. AnonMoos (talk) 08:58, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Early 20th-century

This article seems to ignore the fact that in the 20th-century before WW2, "non-mainstream" forms of Islam (Ahmadis, precursors to the Nation of Islam, the Nation of Islam) were rather more prominent in the U.S. than "mainstream" forms of Islam. And for a large number of Americans of that period, the first time they heard about American Muslims (or Americans claiming to be Muslims) was during the press coverage of the infamous "Allah Temple of Islam" related human ritual sacrifice murder by Robert Karriem in Detroit in 1932 (see Wallace_Fard_Muhammad#Founding of the Nation of Islam)... AnonMoos (talk) 09:17, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:Wdm.gif

The image Image:Wdm.gif is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check

• That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
• That this article is linked to from the image description page.

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --01:13, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

PEW's data on Muslim ethnicity

The article currently states:

"However, when Muslim respondents were asked about their race in a recent Pew Research Center survey, 37% answered White, 24% answered Black, 20% answered Asian, 15% answered "other/mixed race," and 4% answered Latino."

However, according to this source (also by PEW) the data seems to be a bit different. Can somebody please clarify?VR _talk 07:20, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Feel free to fix it. It may have been tampered with by a vandal. — ℜob C. alias ᴀʟᴀʀoʙ 17:01, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Another image

I'm wondering what is the notability of the "Meditation II" image. Even if it is relevant, how is it specific at all to Islam in America, as opposed to Islam in general?VR _talk 07:09, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

It relates to a violent incident in Chapel Hill, N.C., so the U.S. angle is present. It was produced by a Muslim and consists of passages from the Qur'an, so the Islam angle is also present. However, it also gives undue emphasis to an artifact produced by a sick mind, implying that it is typical. I've removed it, just as I would remove an image relating to an abortion clinic bomber from a general article on a Christian denomination in the U.S. The image is already present in many other articles more directly related to the image, and linked from this article. In fact, I've seen it before on WP and have found it very interesting and appropriate. Just not in this context. — ℜob C. alias ᴀʟᴀʀoʙ 17:14, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes but this image is not of the violent incident, which would be different altogether. And yes I agree that images should present something of due attention. After all, they are said to speak a thousand words.VR _talk 04:25, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Gender variance

Any statistics on male female proportions? Faro0485 (talk) 18:23, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Good question! I think I saw a book once that documented it. I'll see if I can find it.VR _talk 20:01, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Deletion discussion

Just informing editors here of this related deletion discussion. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Criticism of the Council on American-Islamic Relations (2nd nomination). Comments would be helpful.PelleSmith (talk) 13:22, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

History of Islam in the United States

I once created such an article, but it was merged back into this one, per consensus here. The consensus also stated that this article could be recreated should there be enough material present.

At the time the article was tagged for merger, see this version, it was approximately 1,500 bytes. Currently, in my sandbox, it stands at nearly 13,000 bytes.

Do you guys think that the article History of Islam in the United States can be recreated?VR _talk 05:16, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Shouldn't some things from Saga America by Dr Barry Fell be added to this section? Such as when he mentions "muslim schools in Nevada, Colorado, New Mexico, and Indiana dating back to 700-800 CE" [3] Faro0485 (talk) 03:49, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

I have these comments:

• I think the main article benefits from a historical overview of the subject, and am not eager to switch to working on a separate "history of" article.
• I agree there will probably come a time when we will need a separate, more detailed "history of" article.
• That time has not come IMO. Besides, I don't think the sandbox article is ready for prime time. It needs a lot of editing, may have OR (e.g. in the first sentence dividing the topic into three arbitrary historical periods), and IMO could make better use of sources. Some of the sentences are just puzzling and need to be eliminated or (briefly) explained.
• I'll try to participate in the sandbox, but the main article is a higher priority.
• Barry Fell's books are not reliable sources. His claims do not belong in Wikipedia, except in the article about Barry Fell himself. — ℜob C. alias ᴀʟᴀʀoʙ 04:10, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

The sandbox article was there in prep for another article. Since the main article is of greater priority, and since its in mainspace, I'll go ahead and add the content from there to here. Any edits, concerns can then be addressed here instead of my sandbox/my talk page.VR _talk 17:27, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

The claim regarding "Saudi sponsered Wahhabism"

Hi I am just looking at this incredibly biased, propaganda pushing slanderous article and have noticed some inconcistencies.

For starters, the source given here:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/security/library/congress/2003_h/030626-alexiev.htm

is it used to "prove" saudi's somehow sponser terrorism But it also cinforms that terrorist incicdence have taken place in Rayadh (the capital of Saudi).

So what you are in fact saying, is that saudi is breeding haterd of saudi with their doctrines? Might it be argued that the terrorist ideology is ANTI SAUDI given that they have declared takfir on teh saudi rulers and declared jihad against them? They recently tried to blow up a saudi prince for example.

I dont have time now but Im going prove to people that this myth is nothing but sufi propaganda. They cant defeat the salafi's in a theological debate so they resort to slander

David.Baratheon (talk) 12:26, 6 May 2022 (UTC) 11:37, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

sources

Ice cube has not confirmed he is a muslim, and it seems he has been misquoted by some editors. Could somebody remove his picture ? This is the most quoted source which is from 2000. but ice cube has since made references of church in his lyrics for example "Go to Church" which is from 2006. Iwanttoeditthissh (talk) 18:33, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

English in US mosques

Here is a source: "U.S. mosques debate the use of English." Associated Press. February 21, 2010 WhisperToMe (talk) 05:41, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Interesting, if true

"In 1796, then president John Adams signed a treaty declaring the United States had no "character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen".[24]"

Small problem here, in 1796 John Adams was not the President. George Washington still in office.Eregli bob (talk) 11:45, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

See Treaty of Tripoli -- it was signed at Tripoli and Algiers during George Washington's term, but by the time it got to the U.S. and was approved by the senate and ready to be signed by the U.S. President, John Adams' term had started... AnonMoos (talk) 20:43, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Incredibly biased information

According to an article in the Washington Post, "backed by money from Saudi Arabia, Wahhabis have built or taken over hundreds of mosques in North America and opened branches of Saudi universities here for the training of imams as part of the effort to spread their beliefs, which are intolerant of Christianity, Judaism and even other strains of Islam."

That would essentially mean that more than 10-20%, at least (they give no concrete figures; they simply say "hundreds"), of the mosques in the United States endorse Wahhabism. This is complete nonsense; in fact, the largest mosques in the USA are Shia Mosques in the Southeast Michigan+Toledo area that primarily cater to Iraqis. Moreover, South Asians are the dominant Muslim community within the United States overall, and they follow the Hanafi school; Wahhabism is practiced almost exclusively by Saudis and others from the Arabian penninsula. Do such radical claims even deserve mention? This essentially amounts to an insult, an accusation and a provocation, not a valid criticism based on evidence. -Rosywounds (talk) 10:44, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

By all means help the entry by editing constructively. I'm sure you are entirely correct, but unless you get a good source or two I can tell you in advance that there are a serious bunch of POV pushing editors who monitor this entry and who will revert good edits based on their bias unless they are sourced (in fact they will do so even then but at least then you have some ground to stand on). Good luck.PelleSmith (talk) 14:47, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Lets get a picture of the fort Hood shooter or Faisal o go in the "American Muslim" photo slot. 38.100.151.206 (talk) 18:16, 14 January 2011 (UTC)NOTFOOLED

duplication

Benjamin Franklin's non-sectarian Philadelphia meeting-house now seems to be mentioned twice (I may have been partly responsible for this duplication, if so , sorry)... AnonMoos (talk) 12:35, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Disaffected Muslims

The whole "Disaffected Muslims" section is really badly written and out of date. The Islamic Thinkers Society hasn't been seen since 2006, no media reports and their website is old. John Walker Lindh got some media attention in 2001-2002 but maybe should be replaced by more contemporary people of discussion like Anwar Al-Awlaki. BrotherSulayman (talk) 04:40, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Politics

A citation for the claim that Muslims historically voted Republican is desperately needed. A few Google searches this morning actually suggested that they primarily supported Clinton in 1996. (e.g. http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0817/p09s01-codc.html). Since Muslims did primarily vote for Bush in 2000, it seems like their political leanings may have been rather variable in that period. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.68.182.121 (talk) 14:05, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

I don't think it's because they've commonly changed political philosophies every 4 years, but because neither of the main political parties is a close fit. Muslims tend to be somewhat "conservative" on moral issues, which would tend to favor a Republican affiliation, but on the other hand, evangelical "Christian nation" talk (and recently, certain types of Tea Party rhetoric) repels them. Some of them liked certain Bush-41 era Republican foreign policies, but the majority were not greatly enthusiastic about the Neoconservative policies of the W. Bush (Bush-43) years. Democrats tend to make stronger stands against discrimination, and in some cases have what could be considered more "progressive" foreign policies, but the Democratic party is also the home of most American Jews, who are overall more influential than Muslims in setting party policies... AnonMoos (talk) 16:09, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Remove those who never admitted they are Muslim from the list

Why are people who never said they are Muslim in the picture with all the people? Example is Noureen, as it even says in her article she never confirmed she is a Muslim. Having arrived from a Muslim country does not make you a Muslim, neither is having had Muslim parents or grandparents.

The image with all the Muslim people should be changed. SomeGuy1122 (talk) 16:46, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Population size

There are various figures and estimates for the size of the Muslim population, and the CIA reference (which doesn't give the actual citation) is the absolute lowest of the range. USA Today says there are 2.6 million, CAIR says 6-7 million. A lot of websites say 5 to 8 million. Should we change it to a range in the infobox or make a new section discussing this? BrotherSulayman (talk) 09:29, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Unless something has drastically changed in the last few years, then the high-end estimates (more than five million) are really not credible among most scholarly or professional demographers, and do not match numbers obtained from opinion polling survey techniques... AnonMoos (talk) 10:33, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

You're going to have to cite those polling sources, because unfortunately the issue has become controversial and there are a variety of political groups in America making opposing claims. I suspect the CIA's source for the Muslim population in America is the Pew Forum's 2007 survey on Muslim-Americans. It says:

"The U.S. Census does not ask about a respondent’s religious affiliation in its national. surveys; as a consequence, there are no generally accepted estimates of the size of the Muslim American population. The Pew study projects approximately 1.5 million adult Muslim Americans, 18 years of age and older. The total Muslim American population is estimated at 2.35 million, based on data from this survey and available Census Bureau data on immigrants’ nativity and nationality. It is important to note that both of these estimates are approximations."

The source I gave cites (possibly the same) Pew forum data at nearly double the size of the one in the CIA's source used for the infobox. BrotherSulayman (talk) 18:33, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

It's been several years since I looked at the matter, but both 1.5 million and 2.35 million are significantly less than five million (as is also twice 1.8 million), so it doesn't appear that my comments would require any revision on that basis... AnonMoos (talk) 21:27, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Then shall we change it to 2.35 million and add a clarification about the controversy on the page? BrotherSulayman (talk) 12:51, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

The only thing I would object to is mentioning estimates of 5 million or more as if they're neutral or credible (which they aren't). Otherwise, do as you please, as long as you can find a source for it... AnonMoos (talk) 13:04, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

• I agree with BrotherSulayman! Brendon is here 06:14, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Choice of pics

Concerning the choice of pics in the infobox, were there really no notable female Muslim Americans we could include?--Louiedog (talk) 16:32, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Also, 14/16 of the pics are black Muslims when the demographics section reports only 25% of American Muslims are black. This choice of pics gives a sample that is conspicuously not representative of the population as whole.--Louiedog (talk) 17:04, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

I have added 2 pics of women who are Queen Noor of Jordan and Ellen Burstyn. The reason why most of them in the picture are black is because the majority of famous Muslim Americans are African Americans, because they are well established and are easy to find. I think the reason why there aren't many Arab/South Asian is because most are recent immigrants therefore not many are notable. Dimario (talk) 16:13, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

That reasoning is a little hard to swallow also one not need to be famous ,to be notable,i will be looking in on this--Wikiscribe (talk) 00:55, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Nouren DeWulf has stated she follows no religion. Comedian Aziz Ansari mentioned in an interview with New York Times that he is an atheist. Their names and photos should be removed from featured pictures and from list of American Muslims http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/04/arts/television/04aziz.html?_r=1 spartymantz (talk) 03:36, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Please stop the circlejerks

Hi:

If you hate Islam, or you have a problem with it. Do not post false facts about it.

in the terrorism section

This what is written

" . A 2007 Pew poll reported that 15% of American Muslims under the age of 30 supported suicide bombings against civilian targets in at least some circumstances, while a further 11% said it could be "rarely justified." Among those over the age of 30, just 6% expressed their support for the same. (9% of Muslims over 30 and 5% under 30 chose not to answer)."

If you search in the PDF document, it says totally different things

This is actual quote from the PDF

"Polling around the **Muslim world** also shows sharp drops in support for Osama bin Laden personally and for suicide bombings in general. Support for suicide bombings has dropped in Indonesia, for instance, from 26 percent to 15 percent in the past eight years and in Jordan from 43 percent to 20 percent."

The poll is clearly not about Muslim Americans, it the views from the Muslim worlds.Nullslash (talk) 06:33, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

RfC

BAn RfC: Which descriptor, if any, can be added in front of Southern Poverty Law Center when referenced in other articles? has been posted at the Southern Poverty Law Center talk page. Your participation is welcomed. – MrX 16:48, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Misuse of the word "Disaffected"

"Disaffected" means someone no longer happy with their former allegiances. A "disaffected" Muslim is one who no longer is satisfied with or believes in Islam. I therefore changed that subheading (although I think I may have accidently been logged out when I did so). Softlavender (talk) 05:42, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

Article Head Image of Sixteen American Muslims

The image that tops the article (and which is used nowhere else on the site) has several issues. It definitely needs references for the claimed Muslim faiths of the sixteen faces it displays. I've noticed that both women displayed should not qualify as "American Muslims".

• Queen Noor of Jordan is not American since 1978, date of her wedding. At no time in the past was she simultaneously Muslim and American.
• Noureen DeWulf, though from a muslim family, claims she "hesitates to claim religion", and so isn't muslim. (see http://www.mahalo.com/noureen-dewulf/ )

Nicolas M. Perrault (talk) 01:23, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

As I receive no answer, I will revert the image to a version that doesn't have the two women it displays.

Nicolas M. Perrault (talk) 04:28, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Way Too Long

Every little tidbit included. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.72.122.252 (talk) 06:21, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Criticism section should be removed

Critics of Muslims in the US should have no place in this article. It is incredibly offensive. Can anyone imagine the uproar if there was a criticism section in the article for "Judaism in the United State", quoting known racists (Daniel Pipes is first quoted in this section of the article) and bigots? There is not place for this, and should be moved to another article concerning bigoted ideas about Islam. 50.143.52.81 (talk) 18:11, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

While I'm not taking any sides on whether the section should be removed, I wish to point out that while Wikipedia has no article for “Judaism in the United States,” I would not oppose the addition of a criticism section to it because, after all, everything should and must be open to criticism, and even if you think it shouldn't, the fact of its criticism remains a fact, which is what Wikipedia is assigned to document. EIN (talk) 02:27, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Islam among slaves

  I added the clause

Islam was stringently suppressed on plantations

but the closest i have as source is the evidentiary value Hill puts (pp. 394) on one Georgia-slave Qu'ran produced from memory. So i {{cite}}-tagged my own insertion.
   IMO the old version was seriously out of balance, insinuating that Islam in American is a tradition handed down from slavery to the Nation of Islam. I commend those who are inspired by identifying with traditions of their distant ancestors, but the distinction between receiving traditions via a continuous chain of generations much longer than your own life, and the more intellectual decision to pick up or rather reweave the thread that was dropped or broken is different. It's IMO not for anyone else (let alone me) to insist that it's not as good, or that it's close enuf to as good that the difference is not worth quibbling over. But it's different, and bending the facts in an effort to convince yourself or someone else that it's not different, is contrary to scholarship and to WP's purpose.
  OK, watch, i'm getting off my high horse, and i hope someone will hit me with a boffer-star so i'll stop taking myself so seriously and be fit to live & work with for at least the next few days.
--Jerzy•t 08:00, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

   Oh! Or a halibut!
--Jerzy•t 08:30, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Early 20th century

This article seems to gloss over a little the fact that during much of the first half of the 20th century, Ahmadis and precursor groups to the Nation of Islam (later the Nation of Islam itself) were more prominent than "orthodox" groups. The first that many people in America ever heard of American Muslims was either Hi Jolly or the sensational November 1932 murder in Detroit[4]... AnonMoos (talk) 15:01, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

This is a repeat of a comment you made in 2008. It's a valid point. I have just rolled back four edits by an anonymous user who systematically erased all references to the Ahmadi sect in this article. We'll have to keep an eye on that. — ℜob C. alias ÀLAROB 19:20, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

RE:image:“Muslim children in [NYC] supporting Park51”

As is the case with any religion, there is no such thing as Muslim children, only children whose caregivers are Muslim. EIN (talk) 02:33, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

That's a debatable point. What kind of evidence do you have to support your view? Cultural conventions vary widely as to when a child is supposed to be capable of agency, and any birthday-based threshold is arbitrary. I assume you are not suggesting that no one should be identified with a religion until they have attained the age of legal majority in their country. — ℜob C. alias ÀLAROB 19:29, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

Shaquille O'Neal Image Misleading

O'Neal is not a Muslim. I have done Google searches and the truth is that his adopted father is a Muslim. He was raised in a dual Muslim and Christian household based on the religions of his parents. He himself has stated that he does not identify as a Muslim, however.PonileExpress (talk) 05:55, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

His placement in the image-box contradicts what is in his own article and about what he states his faith to be. I've edited his name off and yes the image collection there should be edited to reflect such. Wikispeaks (talk) 11:01, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

then why has this not been fixed? --Inayity (talk) 06:19, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Fork page for discussing Infobox images

I have created a fork of this discussion for discussing all issues related to the Infobox and its images of American Muslims.

It is: Talk:Islam in the United States/Infobox

I set up headings for discussion of format issues, general standards for selection, and discussion of specific individuals to include/exclude.

Hope this helps. If no one objects, I will move much of the above discussion to an archive page. — ℜob C. alias ÀLAROB 20:50, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

Talk page agreement First

Beyond the two editors with a similar mission. The talk page is the place to sort out issues before finding there way into the edit. Others should have stepped in and enforced this. From the talk page removing people and putting others esp people who are not known as Muslims violates BLP. No need to repeat as this was discussed already. So first the talk page and then edit the article after, not the other way around. The talk page all but resolved the issue with one exception Rima vs Asma. But even that compromise was not enough so now against the talk page Farrakhan was deleted and a Non-Muslim woman Sarah Shahi added, as well as Rima and Nadia Ali despite every editor saying no WP:V [5]was given for her faith. A violation of WP:BLP. My criteria is two things should not be controversial their faith as Muslims (in their own words) and their American citizenship. We also go with notability. hence Farrakhan cannot be replaced with Nadia Ali, or Rima. --Inayity (talk) 07:18, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Ahmet Ertegun, founder of Atlantic Records

The first muslim MISS USA is not notable and Farakhan is? what is he notable for? he is leader of a group of muslims, right, and what's so big about that because there are many such leaders in america. plus, farakhan's image is already appearing in the body of the article under 'nation of islam'.[6] now, why must we have only his image shown in the article twice?--22 Male Cali (talk) 15:03, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

We must also add one Turkish American iconic figure. example, Ahmet Ertegun (founder Atlantic Records or Muhtar Kent (CEO of The Coca-Cola Company).--22 Male Cali (talk) 16:34, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Why are images of people being put on a talk page. Not all of these images can be freely used like this. names are enough. I will not waste time explaining Farrakhan vs. Miss USA (be serious now). I propose getting rid of Rasheed Wallace or Bernard Hopkins, and maybe freeway. But I suggest getting rid of them to cut down the size of the image gallery (which is distracting). Images on Wikipedia are not compulsory but good articles *text* is. Anyone wanting an image gallery should try instagram. And anyone added I request that Islam (the religion in all its forms but not contested) be central to their identity, Like Hamza Yusuf a Sufi or Malcolm X. (a central aspect of their identity). Not My Mom is Muslim and I come from Iran, and my surname is Khan.--Inayity (talk) 16:46, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

We will remove them once the point is made and once we decide which ones qualify. I personally feel that followers of Nation of Islam are muslims despite most sources claim otherwise. [7] in otherwords, i view them as any other american muslims regardless of differences. i have alot of respect for Farakhan but we also need to add images of other notable muslims based on their accomplishments. i disagree with your last point, the infobox should have images of any practicing muslim who is strongly connected to the united states. this article deals with issues relating to that. we can remove the ones who are non-notable or those who don't follow islam strongly. can we agree on something here or are we going to be arguing non-stop? i wish others, especially non-muslims, come here to share their thoughts.--22 Male Cali (talk) 17:00, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

I did not say practicing. Obviously they must be USA citizens. I said Where Islam is central to their identity. I.e. On their wikipedia page Islam is not mentioned in passing, once, it is not in doubt nor in controversy. So if Islam was not notable to be mentioned in their bio, why are they even being posted as representative of Islam ?! If an article is about Cows, put pictures of cows, not sheep with cow's hat on. So Turkish guy is out. As well as the Space lady. --Inayity (talk) 17:09, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

The space lady is Ansari, she is the first muslim female to space and that is a very huge accomplishment for an american muslim, and the world needs to know. and turkish americans are one of the most earliest and one of the most advanced american muslims. it makes no sense to take such notable muslims out from the imagebox and replace them with small time local hip-hop stars, a one time book writer or other less known people who just happen to live in the united states but don't actually contribute anything to the united states.--22 Male Cali (talk) 17:48, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

I also prefer the notability of the female Space lady vs the writer, the only issue is her Islam identity has no strong RS WP:V. Even that article only mentions Islam in Passing. It is not even her saying she sees herself as Muslim. It is a vague thing. But my concern, as before let us differentiate Muslim (like Malcolm X and even Lupo and Hamza) from From a Muslim country. Where on their Wikipedia page at least Islam is of some notability in their lives, enough so to be reps of the faith.--Inayity (talk) 18:28, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Another way of seeing this is Would she, a living person, want to be a poster child for Islam and America? She must be (via RS) clear about that identity. --Inayity (talk) 18:31, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

The title of the article is "Iranian-Born American Is World's First Muslim Woman in Space" Thereandnot (talk) 04:24, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Sure that is the title of an article, it is not a R.S to her faith when the word Muslim seems to be used in the nominal way, and the article does not discuss religion in a direct way. It is not a RS for religion, when Muslim is mentioned only Once. Need something else, and if Islam is notable for her identity you should never have a problem finding something other than one article. Articles have all kinds of titles, what is the article about.?--Inayity (talk) 08:05, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

So you are saying that a Muslim is not a follower of Islam? Thereandnot (talk) 01:41, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Image control

There needs to be a standard for adding someones image to the image box. Sure we want diversity but we also need notability and a RS statement about their faith. i.e. Like Muhammad Ali, Siraaj Wahaj etc. Farrakhan, someone who identifies in no uncertain terms with Islam and is American and notable. That way it does not become a junk basket for every Muslim-born happen to be famous person with American citizenship. Yes we like more women, but still must fit some criteria. If no r.S mentions them 100% identifying with Islam then do not put them.--Inayity (talk) 13:27, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

I disagree with your radical view. regardless what Nadia Ali's profession is, she is born muslim in an islamic country to muslim parents and immigrated to the united states to eventually become a notable musician. it's not like muslim women don't sing in islamic countries, there are 1,000s. someone who carries a name like nadia ali is surely not a hindu, jew or christian. you can do more research about her islamic faith... she has a muslim name, she's from an islamic country, she stated that she doesn't drink alcohol or use drugs but eats meat (suggesting she isn't hindu or buddhist). [8] . I strongly believe that she knows her prayer and likely prays, unlike the black rappers who i doubt if they ever prayed. most of these black rappers think that saying "a-salam alaycome" and not eating pork makes them muslim, hahahaha. i grew up in black neighborhoods and i know this very well.--22 Male Cali (talk) 00:36, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

R.S (not a forum)WP:CATEGRS(re:religion) I dont care where she is born. Or where she or you grew up, or your anecdotal rapper experience. The criteria is a source which says she is Muslim. On her wiki page Islam is not mentioned because it is not notable in her identity. This page is and the images are not a pet project or an image gallery to grow out of control. I do not have to research anything about her beyond the R.S that say she identifies as Muslim. Even after that why is she here? Is she that notable? do we add every single person who has two cents of fame and some remote Islamic connection? or Just because they are Muslim? At what point do we say there are too many images? --Inayity (talk) 06:37, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

In most cases R.S is required but in this case it is not required because it is too obvious that she is muslim, and even you know that but want to argue with me anyway. you have nobody else to support your ridiculous opinions. she is notable because she is the first female muslim artist who made it to where no other female muslim artists made it before. she is american and entertains people around the world. she is pakistani and 97% of pakistanis are muslims, and the name "nadia ali" itself says "i'm a muslim". we need to remove the images of some of the fake black american muslims, especially the rappers. they are "a-salam a fake-ums", they don't practice islam.--22 Male Cali (talk) 17:58, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

I will tell you again, this is Wikipedia and we follow Wikipedia rules. WP:CATEGRS and WP:RELY if you have none verifying someones religion then we do not assume. Islam is not a birth right, it is not defined by birthplace, surnames, or language. If you are unclear about Islam see Islam. It is therefore not like being from Pakistan, or inherited from your momma. And there is no need for assumption only WP:RELY. --Inayity (talk) 08:31, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

According to the U.S. Department of State, the largest ethnic groups of American Muslims are those of South Asian, Arab and African-American descent

First, are you the same person behind Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs)? second, what is your problem with non-black muslims? why r you taking out notable muslim-americans who happen to be of asian background? black american-muslims only make up 25% so why do you leave 13 images of blacks in the infobox but only 5 of non-blacks? your view point is flawed and non-neutral. the infobox must reflect the faces of notable muslim americans of all races and not just blacks. most of these black muslims follow nation of islam. these n.o.i. followers are widely known as fake (counterfeit) muslims, they're misled because they worship a man and believe in other nonsense. the muslim world does not accept these as muslims and this is well established.--22 Male Cali (talk) 16:26, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Images in the infobox

Only 25% of muslim americans are blacks and the remaining 75% are non-blacks, mostly from asia. the infobox needs to show faces of notable muslim americans. i feel that these belong in the infobox:

1. Shahid Khan (first muslim-american billionaire to own an NFL team [9])
2. Saqib Ali (first muslim-american state delegate)
3. Nadia Ali (first muslim-american female singer)

because everywhere you see muslims in the united states, you see these type of faces. whether it's 7-11 store, gas station, dollar store, restaurant, or any other muslim-owned business in the united states. you hardly ever see a black american muslim owning a business. it's sad and shouldn't be but black muslims are usually associated with prisons/crimes in the united states. by putting too many black faces in the infobox, you are deliberately trying to mislead the readers.--22 Male Cali (talk) 16:26, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

You have been warned about your uncivil language on the talk page. Please discuss this article and not your race based opinion about African American people. On the note of the tag, that tag is not for the issue you have raised here. If you have notable non-African Muslims I am sure we can discuss. But Black or White, the criteria of inclusion still applies, notable, 100% clarity on their faith Using R.S. --Inayity (talk) 17:20, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

1. Saqib Ali (first muslim-american state delegate) Qualifies once there is an R.S. The Pakistani Beyonce girl does not!--Inayity (talk) 17:22, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

There's nothing uncivil about my language and i dunno know these codes but what is r.s.? give me a simple reason why shahid khan doesn't qualify? nadia ali is libyan by birth and american by citizenship and everything else. why do you call her pakistani beyonce? is there proof that she even visited pakistan in her life time? now do you see the flaws in your thinking? nadia ali represents an american muslim female and her image is very much suitable for the infobox unless we can get someone more notable than her.--22 Male Cali (talk) 01:11, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

22 Male Cali, please show me where in Nadia Ali's biography it says she is a Muslim. Thank you. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 02:02, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

1. her name says she's muslim (no non-muslim have Ali (name) as a last name); 2. her place of birth is an islamic country; 3. her parents are from an islamic country; 4. she has said it on voice of america that she represents a muslim american woman [10] of south asian background. we can add that she stated while going to clubs she avoided drinking alcohol and using drugs, and that her parents at first didn't want her to sing or perform, etc, all of that relates to a muslim family and muslim lifestyle. muslims in america often hide their faith in order to be successful because america is primarily a non-muslim country and they feel that this is the only way to make it. so, don't expect her to make songs about islam because most singers don't do that, except a few like Stevie B who actually made a song which repeats "la ilaha ila allah,muhamad rasulallah" [11] and in another he mentions "allah" instead of god. anyway, nadia ali is muslim and even you know that so let's just keep at least one notable female in the box. she looks like any ordinary asian american muslim ladies. i have nothing against black people, in fact, i enjoy watching their movies and in all of them you see or hear a little about islam.--22 Male Cali (talk) 06:45, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

I think that's a long-winded way of acknowledging that her Wikipedia biography doesn't say she's a Muslim. Please read WP:BLP and WP:V. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 01:54, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Consensus starts here for keeping images of Shahid Khan, Saqib Ali and Nadia Ali

1. Shahid Khan (first muslim-american billionaire to own an NFL team [12])
2. Saqib Ali (first muslim-american state delegate)
3. Nadia Ali (first muslim-american female singer)

If you agree that the images of these 3 notable muslim americans be kept in the infobox just write Keep, and if you disagree please explain why not.

• Keep - putting too many black faces in the infobox is clearly not presenting the true image of "Islam in the United States". my view is that the infobox need to show more images of notable american muslims from all over the world, particularly asians since they are the most advanced group.--22 Male Cali (talk) 01:11, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
• comment - 1. No consensus so do not re-insert any disputed people. W/o R.S. as repeatedly mentioned they will not qualify. 2. Do not add Dispute tags as there is no dispute per WP:DT. Not liking the racial distribution in an image box is not a proper dispute for an entire well referenced article. It is an inappropriate usage. Also see WP:TALK and limit your remarks.--Inayity (talk) 08:24, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Image set proposal

I have been working on a list of 16 American Muslims to include in the infographic. Goals:

• Gender balance
• Ethnic balance (very loosely corresponding to proportion of U.S. Muslim population, but reflecting diversity)
• Historic coverage (i.e., not all the images should be of present-day celebrities)
• Diversity of professions, backgrounds, and opinions

Limitations:

• The subject must have a WP article with a portrait image.
• Each subject must be reliably reported to be Muslim, or at least to identify culturally as Muslim.

I do not include people with universalist views or who were raised in a Muslim family but no longer identify as Muslim.

I found that many WP articles about notable American Muslim women lack portraits. That is the main reason I could not achieve perfect gender balance. (See, e.g., Aminah Assilmi, Azizah Y. al-Hibri, Daisy Khan, Jamilah Kolocotronis, Ingrid Mattson, Melody Moezzi, Maysoon Zayid.)

Although I sought individuals from throughout U.S. history, the list reflects the growth in the native Muslim population since the 1960s, and their growing prominence in mainstream public life in the 21st century. So most of the subjects are living people.

Here is the proposed list, alphabetized by surname:

• Muhammad Ali (male, African American)
• Keith Ellison (male, African American)
• Negin Farsad (female, Iranian American)
• Asma Gull Hasan (female, South Asian American)
• Hi Jolly (male, Arab American) (Ottoman, then naturalized U.S. citizen)
• Khaled Hosseini (male, Afghani American)
• Arsalan Iftikhar (male, South Asian American)
• Ahmad Jamal (male, African American)
• Dalia Mogahed (female, Arab American)
• Warith Deen Muhammad (male, African American)
• Kareem Salama (male, Arab American)
• Betty Shabazz (female, African American)
• Amina Wadud (female, African American)
• Rasheed Wallace (male, African American)
• Alexander Russell Webb (male, European American) i.e. "white"
• Hamza Yusuf (male, European American)

The gender balance is 11 (male) to 5 (female).

Ethnicity: I've combined Indian, Pakistani, and Bangladeshi origin as "South Asian," as some subjects have ties to more than one of these countries. Note that I do not think we should be rigid about representing ethnicity in proportion to the population; notability of the subject as both Muslim and American seems more important. In particular, I think it's appropriate that African Americans should be disproportionately represented for historical reasons. However, it's more appropriate to highlight notable and self-consciously Muslim African Americans, not entertainment figures who can more or less plausibly be described as Muslim. Therefore I've included only one black musician, Ahmad Jamal, who has already made his mark on history, and two clearly notable athletes, Muhammad Ali and Rasheed Wallace.

The breakdown: 7 "black", 3 Arab, 2 South Asian, 2 "white", 1 Iranian, 1 Afghan.

How did I do? — ℜob C. alias ÀLAROB 17:58, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

African Americans will always dominant for obvious reasons. Islam in America history started with African Americans, they are most NOTABLE for Islam in America (Malcolm X, Farrakhan,Jazz, etc). And Notability counts for a lot for every such image gallery see Jews. The current image is okay, the only problem is the Female non-African American. And the issue we have with the non-African American females is the clarity of their faith. in other words no "I was raised Muslim" (doesn't cut it}. I mix Christianity with Islam (does not cut it). Notability must come before career! saying that we do not need all rappers. --Inayity (talk) 18:08, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

There are three "non-African American females" in the list. I am unsure what you mean about "the clarity of their faith," or how that relates to editing this article. This is probably not the place to express views about how Islam should ideally be practiced. — ℜob C. alias ÀLAROB 18:21, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

We pick people that clearly identify with being Muslim, where Islam is defined as a distinctive religion which is therefore Not Judaism, Christianity or anything else. Goes for every other page on Wikipedia as per WP:CATEGRS, it also applies to the term African American (people who identify). And since there is no shortage of such people it will not be a problem here. "I was raised Muslim =/= I am a Muslim (per T-Pain)--Inayity (talk) 18:34, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Rima Fakih became Miss Michigan USA in 2009 and Miss USA in 2010. She stated: "I'd like to say I'm American first, and I am an Arab-American, I am Lebanese-American, and I am Muslim-American" [1].

Why did you take out miss usa 2010 Rima Fakih? it is well established that she is muslim and an arab. we need at least one arab female and miss usa happens to be a very major accomplishment for muslim american. please do not remove her.--22 Male Cali (talk) 18:42, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Someone else better took her place. And let me remind you of this edit that you made or did you forget?--Inayity (talk) 18:44, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

You're switching your opinion now. there is not a single source that mentions Ellen Burstyn being a muslim, in the references she does not even mention any islamic rituals. as for rima fakih, there are dozens of sources that mention her being a shia muslim of lebanese descent and she proudly accepts that. as long as R.S. states she is muslim we go by that [13]. christmas is a pre-christianity tradition and anyone who celebrates it doesn't make them a christian. many jews, hindus, athiests, and others celebrate it but that doesn't make them christian.--22 Male Cali (talk) 18:58, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

As I said before Dalia Mogahed as well as Asma Gull Hasan is a better representation (beyond dispute). Now that is TWO non-African American and women. Now this article is not a collection of pictures and we need to push on. b/c someone else will come with someone they think should be added, where does this story end? Gain Talk page agreement before changing disputable images perhaps?--Inayity (talk) 19:02, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Asma Gull Hasan is just one of 10,000s of muslim writers, she is not as notable as miss usa 2010 rima fakih. how can we not put the first muslim miss usa in an article about "islam in the united states"?--22 Male Cali (talk) 19:13, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

FWIW I didn't "take out" anyone. Male Call, if you think Rima Fakih is more notable than someone else on the list (ideally one of the males), then please discuss her notability and relevance. According to her WP article, she does identify as "Muslim-American" but also as more "spiritual" than "religious." Other Muslims have publicly contested her claim to be Muslim because of her actions. Actually, that controversy probably deserves to go in the article. (Maybe just a sentence and a wlink.) — ℜob C. alias ÀLAROB 19:05, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

He was referring to me. And thanks for sharing Dalia Mogahed as well as Asma Gull Hasan, as well as that inside info on Rima Fakih. but if she is not notable she need not get mentioned.--Inayity (talk) 19:10, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

It makes no difference if muslims accept her westernized way of living or not, SHE IS MUSLIM AMERICAN to the entire world. that's like saying so and so drinks alcohol and dates americans so he/she is not muslim. come on man these arguments are laughable and without merit.--22 Male Cali (talk) 19:13, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

For me it is very very simple. No need to get complicated. We Represent (key word) the most non-controversial representations of the thing we are putting in the article. So if we say Mosque, we put a Mosque not a church that calls itself a Mosque. If we say Hijab, we do not put J-Lo in a Durag. Fine if she believes she is Muslim, but for this page her Islamic identity is controversial while Dalia and Malcolm X are NOT.Represent Diversity not Controversy (quote me on that) --Inayity (talk) 19:19, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Then why did you add in the infobox an image of Louis Farakhan, the leader of the syncretic and mainly African-American religious movement the Nation of Islam (NOI)? [14] The Nation of Islam (NOI) is a syncretic new religious movement founded in Detroit, Michigan by Wallace D. Fard Muhammad in July 1930. The Nation of Islam's stated goals are to improve the spiritual, mental, social, and economic condition of African Americans in the United States and all of humanity.[15] Its critics accuse it of being black supremacist [16] and antisemitic. [17] [18] [19] The Southern Poverty Law Center states NOI’s “theology of innate black superiority over whites and the deeply racist, anti-Semitic and anti-gay rhetoric of its leaders have earned the NOI a prominent position in the ranks of organized hate.”[20]

You have contradicted yourself at least 3 times since we started this discussion. you keep changing your mind as you go along.--22 Male Cali (talk) 22:24, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm a little concerned at the racial tone the above discussion has taken. I would discourage it. Also i'm surprised that Louis Farrakhan was removed. He is among rh most influential Muslims in the US. Reinsert him please Pass a Method talk 07:32, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Anousheh Ansari, Iranian-Born American Is World's First Muslim Woman in Space [2].

I think Anousheh Ansari is more notable than the other iranian women whos religion is not even mentioned.--22 Male Cali (talk) 02:18, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Islam is not a notable part of her Wikipedia page, or her self view. --Inayity (talk) 07:47, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

How can we know her self-view? Thereandnot (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 01:43, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

It is very very easy, by RS sources, the same way we Know Malcolm X Islamic identity, and how he saw himself (i.e. as a Muslim--Inayity (talk) 06:31, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, the RS are calling her the first muslim woman in space. So that settles that. Thereandnot (talk) 23:27, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Pseudo-historical propaganda

I deleted the section on 'pre-contact theories', which flowered it up by saying that it was 'popular' to think that Muslims had discovered the Americas, without even specifying the US. This is pseudohistory which is rejected by any acadcemic worth their salt, and even the existence of the theory should not be mentioned. Would you include the Jewish 9/11 conspiracy in depth on the page on American Jews? Even conspiracies themselves have a meagre sentence on the 9/11 article. And as academic time has been wasted on debunking this propaganda, I won't pick out all the holes here. But really - if it took 781 years to reconquer half of Spain from Islam - Colombus would have probably have just about reconquered New England by now. Indiasummer95 (talk) 20:27, 10 October 2013 (UTC) (sockpuppet indefintely blocked)

Not all of those "theories" can be painted with the same brush. If they should be included on this page, however, is another matter. And just because there is a 9/11 conspiracy theory, does not mean it is nonsense. There use to be a Gulf of Tonken theory which turned out to be true. Wait a few years and we will find out about 9/11.--Inayity (talk) 15:39, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

I just meant that theories with no notable academic agreement, and widely debunked as propaganda, should not be mentioned on this page. None of them were even specific that these Muslims had reached any land which is now called 'The United States of America'. Indiasummer95 (talk) 18:32, 11 October 2013 (UTC) (sockpuppet indefintely blocked)

BTW mate WP:NOTFORUM. Keep on track Indiasummer95 (talk) 18:33, 11 October 2013 (UTC) (sockpuppet indefintely blocked)

Restored material as dubious reasons supplied for removal. What does the term "propoganda" have to do with academic analysis? Further Indiasummer95 is a sock puppet and disruptive editor who has been indefinitely blocked for multiple abuses. Sources were completely reliable. They didn't warrant removal. StuffandTruth (talk) 00:38, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Chronological errors and historical gaps

There are chronological errors for example: the era of Slavery predates the section on the 19th and 20th century. In this article and historical gaps regarding the United State's early relations with the Sultan of Morocco and the first Iftar. The article contains a very controversial section on the First Barbary War, which has little to do with Muslims in the United States and a lot to do with violent Piracy.182.182.97.189 (talk) 08:35, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Snop Dogg

I try added rapper Snoop Dogg into infobox, but someone reverted it. I have some source: 1 and 2 -39.225.52.226 (talk) 20:34, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

His name is Snopp Lion and If you check up on recent events he is a Reggae Artist and says he is a Rastaman. That is not some secret information. Just because someone donates money in 2009 does not mean they are a Muslim. It takes a bit more than that in Islam.--Inayity (talk) 20:38, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Look at the dates of those articles. Snoop Dogg has since changed his name to Snoop Lion and become a rastafarian. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 20:39, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Support for the American Revolution in the Muslim World

A Mughal Era Muslim South Asian historian Ghulam Husain Tabatabai, gained information about the American Revolution which was one of the reasons for war between the British and the Dutch in India. He writes that the colonists in America paid enormous amounts of taxes to the King of the Briton and when he increased their taxation they revolted and mastered the art of artillery and flint-locks they made no difficulties in encountering the armies of the King of Briton and inflicted a series of defeats upon the Britons until they (the Americans) gained their independence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.182.48.33 (talk) 22:21, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

note

Ghulam Husain Tabatabai was the author of the book Siyar-ul-Mutakhkherin, which informs about the conditions of the Muslims of South Asia from the beggening of the reign of the sixth Mughal Emperor Aurangzeb till the year 1781.182.182.48.33 (talk) 22:27, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

References

inclusion of Salem Poor

With a caption of the postage stamp, it states "Salem Poor is believed to have been a Muslim". Nowhere in his article is such a statement made, and given it is known he baptized his children, this claim seems rather dubious. Given the reasoning for including him in this article, were the founders of Salem, Massachusetts of Muslim orgin? Is the source given for including him (muslimsinamerica) known for its impeccable historical research? 78.26 (I'm no IP, talk to me!) 14:16, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

I have removed that entire paragraph. "Muslim-sounding name" and a non-scholarly reference are weak sources. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 14:30, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Muslim States (second most popular religion) Map

Can we somehow incorporate this map or information into this wiki article? Here is a map of second most popular religions in the US and Muslims hold many states, see https://bosniakandjewishfriendship.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/muslim-and-jewish-states-in-the-us.jpg and the source http://blogs.marketwatch.com/themargin/2014/07/03/whats-the-second-most-popular-religion-in-your-state/. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.180.252.211 (talk) 18:01, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

African-American Muslims

What I'm missing in the respective sections is some information about how many African-American Muslims are part of the specific Black-Power/Black-supremacy movements and how many are more in line with traditional Islamic schools of thought which might consider the former "un-islamic" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:8108:1CC0:11D4:5D00:1435:E055:780B (talk) 11:31, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't know what that link is, i didn't add it.

"Pre-Columbian contacts" section

I have removed a number of unreliable, low-quality and/or irrelevant refs from the section "Pre-Columbian Islamic contact theories", but on second thought, I think I'll actually remove the whole section. Of the cites I removed, one was a low-quality self-published book, one a completely rubbish fringe website, one a lengthy quotation of a primary source, which however isn't actually interpreted as an American contact by the modern author cited (he says this one reflects a voyage to the Canaries). Of the remaining refs:

1. One (Ahsani, "Muslims in Latin America: a survey") seems to be formally a WP:RS, but apparently deals only with "Latin America" according to its title, so would be likely irrelevant to the topic of this article, the territory of the USA;
2. one (María Rosa Menocal, Culture in the Time of Tolerance) lacks page numbers and any indication what exactly and where in the book the author claims;
3. one (Ali al-Masudi etc.) is just a list of alleged primary sources from the middle ages;
4. one (Caesar Farah, Islam) is by an author who apparently was a professor of history at a US university, but the book is only a popular introduction to Islamic theology, the passage quoted lacks any kind of detail, sources or any other indicator of academic rigor, and the claims made (that Muslims had not only been to America before Columbus occasionally, but that they actually were there when he arrived and subsequently "led the fight against Spanish and Portuguese navies" definitely belongs into the realm of "extraordinary claims that require extraordinarily good sources" (which this one isn't).

None of the potentially reliable sources seem to speak of pre-Columbian Muslim contacts involving the territory of the US, so even if there's something worth citing in any of them, they don't seem to be relevant to this article anyway. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:37, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Dates of a single event differ

First reference:

On 9 December 1805, President Thomas Jefferson hosted an Iftar dinner at the White House for his guest Sidi Soliman Mellimelli, an envoy from Tunis.[26]

Second reference, later in the article:

While President, Jefferson also participated in an iftar with the Ambassador of Tunisia in 1809.[55] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.90.28.207 (talk) 02:44, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Percentage of Muslim slaves brought to colonial America

The second paragraph of the article suggest that the percentage of Muslim slaves brought to colonial America amounts to 20-30% and as of writing this offers two references. The first reference, a book titled "Servants of Allah: African Muslims enslaved in the Americas" takes the stance that it is not possible to reliably determine the percentage of Muslims in American slaves. It does however mention that Muslims were definitely a minority.

The second reference, online link to http://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/tserve/twenty/tkeyinfo/islam.htm mentions, without further sources, an estimated 10 percent.

Unable to verify the original claim of 20-30%.

Snaip (talk) 07:25, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

Godd catch. I think there is a slightly higher estimate (than 10%) in Michael Gomez's book Exchanging Our Country Marks but I don’t have a copy at hand. Certainly it's not 20-30%. Changing the passage to "10 percent" in the absence of better sourcing. — ℜob C. alias ALAROB 03:48, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

Question about quote of 30% of slaves brought from Africa were Muslims.

I read the article referenced for this percentage, and the article says 10% were estimated. You might need to change that, and the article in that section had NO other names of Muslims other than a fellow named Omar, as the other peoples names were 'lost to us'. Where is the proof?

R Pittman — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.158.212.149 (talk) 22:01, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

It's been changed. — ℜob C. alias ALAROB 03:55, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

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Constant adding people -- No More Rappers like Akon

It becomes a problem because look at the size of the box already, how many more people do we add, by what criteria? Well we established that a while ago. Akon is a Muslim Akon is famous, but that is not the only criteria. Islam is not central to his identity, and so other people who are notable with a notable Islamic identity fill the boxes. Like Farrakhan and Ali. I would like to also get rid of Freeway.--Inayity (talk) 08:29, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

As a reminder — there is a spin-off page for deciding how the Infobox images should be handled. Talk:Islam in the United States/Infobox.

I believe Inayity and I are the only ones who have bothered to use the page. If you have an opinion on this, you should express it. If not, I guess the two of us can just make the rules for the rest of you. — ℜob C. alias ALAROB 22:46, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

Nobody—including you and Inayity—has written on that page since October 2013. Maybe we should consider it "historical" and conduct infobox discussions on this page. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 02:34, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Suits me. In the meantime it's OK to be bold and remove images that don't fit the criteria. — ℜob C. alias ALAROB 03:56, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

Just reworked all the images, arranging them by alpha order. — ℜob C. alias ALAROB 04:45, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

Also reworded the comment in the infobox (visible when editing). It now reads: DO NOT ADD FACES TO THIS BOX JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE FAMOUS AND YOU HEARD THAT THEY ARE MUSLIM. THANKS. — ℜob C. alias ALAROB 04:48, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

Good grief, people, enough with the celebrity substitutions already! While it's sweet that Janet Jackson has converted to Islam and made her musical act less raunchy, that hardly makes her a typical American Muslim — especially while living in Qatar! As for Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Islam is in his words about "latching on to something that was part of my heritage" more than about the religion per se. In his role as a U.S. cultural ambassador (appointed in 2012) it is his African American identity that seems paramount, not identifying as a Muslim. And having children out of wedlock, more than once, is not OK. — ℜob C. alias ALAROB 19:58, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

This article is about Islam in the United States, obviously the infobox should have faces of the most notable American Muslims. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar is generally known by everyone in America as a Muslim [21] and he is an American. It does not matter if Janet Jackson is living in Qatar. She is said to have become Muslim and she is a famous American, even her brother is Muslim. By removing their faces and putting South Asians, you're expressing that only South Asians practice Islam, or that South Asians are welcomed in America over other people. Most of these often travel back to their countries, or move back to their country after their studies are complete or for other reasons, and many of them don't even practice Islam but just hold on to Muslim names (e.g., Aziz Ansari, Reza Aslan). They do just about everything nonmuslims do, including drinking alcohol, dating and marrying nonmuslims, never praying or holding fast, forming gangs, committing crimes, etc, etc, and some even eat pork. The environment makes them that way. We have to have a rule here as to who gets added and who don't.--Krzyhorse22 (talk) 21:13, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

You make good points about not including people who are only nominal Muslims. But then you replace people whose notability is closely linked to their faith with a sports celebrity and a basketball player. Obviously the pictures I included before are not "only of South Asians." (I reverted the group to a previous version before it became packed with current celebrities like Ansari, Aslan, and Janet Jackson.) The South Asians you criticize above as poor Muslims (Aziz Ansari, Reza Aslan) were not included in the reverted photo group. The two South Asians you removed (Asma Gull Hasan and Nouman Ali Khan) are both notable for their work to educate the public about Islam and Muslims.

The list already had two African American male athletes, Muhammad Ali and Rasheed Wallace. So how is it improved, or made more representative of the American Muslim population, by adding a third, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar? And as I mentioned above, a man who fathers a series of children out of wedlock invites skepticism about how seriously he takes his Muslim faith.

The names were arranged alphabetically, but you moved some of them around and called it a "more professional display of images."[22] Could you explain?

Before making further changes, kindly explain why you think they are needed. Stop accusing your fellow editors of bad intentions, e.g. "You don't own this article; you don't decide who is Muslim and who is not."[23] Wikipedia has few rules, but one of the most important is assume good faith. — ℜob C. alias ALAROB 00:58, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

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Honor killing

Added Honor killing in the United States, as all/most of them are conducted by muslim americans, clearly relevant to article. Tackylappy (talk) 01:23, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I do not agree one bit. I have been living in the United States for 20 years, and my parents have been here for 35 years and no one person in our family follows the idea behind "honor killing". And especially, stuff like this does not occur in the United States. Stop informing and mentioning biased information that will make Islam seem to be something that people should hate. Aahmed20 (talk) 05:30, 9 December 2016 (UTC)[User: aahmed20]

Pictures of Women

Anyone noticed that all of the pictures put in the article as examples of American Muslims are of men? There should be some women included as well. Hihellowhatsup (talk) 12:03, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

I did notice that there are more pictures of men, but there still exists a good amount of images of American Muslim women. I do agree that there should be some more because they too have very special roles, just like males. The males are normally shown as they have had larger roles, throughout the history of Islam. Islam respects both women and men equally, although the role in society for both is different, but there exists the same of amount of respect and care for both genders. Aahmed20 (talk) 05:44, 9 December 2016 (UTC)([User: aahmed20])

New book

New book: Making Moderate Islam: Sufism, Service, and the "Ground Zero Mosque" Controversy by Rosemary Corbett, Stanford University Press, 2016. Jodi.a.schneider (talk) 17:15, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

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Why do you continue to discriminate atheism and agnosticism?

Nobody cares if Islam is the third largest RELIGION in the US as the opening sentence says, because saying religion excludes non-beliefs such as atheism, agnosticism or humanism. Since the purpose of the opening sentence is to demonstrate the statistics and demographics of Islam, all beliefs, semi-beliefs and non-beliefs must be included, not just beliefs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.3.31.126 (talk) 11:28, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

First, evidently somebody cares, because you changed the first sentence of the article and now you're complaining that it was changed back.

Second, grow up. Irreligion is not a religion, and no, articles about religions don't have to consider every "belief, semi-belief, and non-belief". — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 02:56, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

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External Link/Citation spam embedded in this article

I suggest that this attorney's link spam be removed from the "Notes" (citations) section at the bottom of the article. It is: "88. Paterson Social Security Attorney or Advocate". Social Security Disability Help. Retrieved April 10, 2013."

It references (but has no relationship to) this photograph caption: "Paterson, New Jersey, within the New York City Metropolitan Area, has been nicknamed Little Ramallah, contains a neighborhood with the same name, and is becoming an increasingly popular destination for Muslim immigrants.[88]

Joshgraham56 17:46, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

I agree, so I've removed it. Cordless Larry (talk) 13:06, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

Estevanico

What evidence is there that Estevanico was an adherent of Islam?

The linked source plus the Wiki article itself only state that he was born in Morocco. He may have never been Muslim or may have converted to Christianity.

Montalban (talk) 00:53, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

Discussion Comment:

My addition to this wikipedia article was a brief overview of the history of Muslims in America. One thing I am still curious about is why the Muslim community first came to America. Were they experiencing persecution in places they previously lived. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Emmaceisler (talk • contribs) 20:23, 1 November 2019 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Iftar in Patterson New Jersey.jpg

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Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 1 September 2021 and 15 December 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Tiyyah18.

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Refs

• Why I’m opposed to Ilhan Omar’s bill against Islamophobia ~ Masih Alinejad washingtonpost. 2022/01/25

Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 03:33, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

Wow! That's a really great find from the Washington Post. Here's the article without a paywall:

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:zndL1j6g3_0J:https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/01/25/why-im-opposed-ilhan-omars-bill-against-islamophobia/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

54mmkds (talk) 00:16, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

3rd largest

It is 3rd largest after Christianity and Buddhism. Not after Judaism. 97.114.122.204 (talk) 22:28, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

Not according to [24], which seems to have numbers from 2014. What WP:RS have you got? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:22, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

3rd Largest

There are double the number of Jews than Muslims in the US. Judaism is the 2nd most followed religion, followed by Buddhism and Islam. The statistic should be changed. 82.29.197.2 (talk) 22:50, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

Historians argue that Muslims first arrived in the Americas in the early 16th century in what is now New Mexico and Arizona

I have never heard this before and at the very least there should be a citation for such a claim. If no citation can be found then it should be deleted. 76.78.246.77 (talk) 17:49, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

@76.78.246.77 I've found some sources to back up this claim but this should still be cited 76.78.246.77 (talk) 17:55, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

If they existed, they would have been "Crypto-Muslims" or Moriscos traveling among the Spanish, and would not have been able to openly practice their religion. AnonMoos (talk) 19:58, 16 January 2023 (UTC)