Talk:Islamic culture

[Untitled]

Right now, the [[by following the tenants of Islam 100%) it does not mean that the two are inseperable. In fact, cultural practices have possibly led to the decline of Muslim governance in accordance with Qur'an and Sunnah and it can be seen in the legal (and clutural) practices of governments and people around the world today. ed "Islamicate culture" to denote non-religious culture? The fact is that there is a lot about Islamic civilazation which is cultural and not religious. For example the evolution of elements of Islamic architecture (domes, mihrabs and minarets of mosques especially) from pre-Islamic origins. Compare this article to Jewish culture; obviously the stuff there is not part of Judaism as a religion.

Usually when Muslim culture is used academically, it's in reference to a sub-culture, for example Indian Muslim culture (see http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~nelc/indomuslim.html). --Zeeshanhasan 19:52, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Islamicate never took off. I think I've seen it in one book aside from Hodgson.

It is also the case that the whole concept of "culture", as something that can be viewed as one entity, is not as widely accepted these days.

You might try reading Clifford Geertz, Islam Observed -- I'm reading it now. He's hard put to come up with any Islamic commonality between Indonesia and Morocco. He was held up to me as an exemplar when I was an anthropology graduate student, and now I think he's all style and no substance. Patricia Crone's Pre-industrial Societies, where she uses the anthropological concept "Great and little traditions", might also be relevant.

I just had a google for Muslim culture and cultural Muslim. I've found two instances where people defined themselves as cultural Muslims. Most anthropology courses talk about Muslim cultures or societies -- in the plural.

I just can't see this article being about anything out there in the real world; it seems to be you defining your identity. Zora 10:47, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

You are right in that I have been unable to find usages of the isolated term "Muslim culture". I admit that lack of usage of Islamicate or Islamic culture may be grounds to delete the article.

However, this article still seems to me to be a good place to lump together things like Islamic art and architecture, which otherwise don't seem linked as part of a larger tradition. The only other alternative seems to be to start rewriting Islamic studies... groan. --Zeeshanhasan 11:35, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

The article ought to be deleted. It essentially suggests that Arabs, Turks, Persians, Afghans, Kurds, Balochis, Pashtuns, Indian Muslims, Bengalis, Malaysians, Hui people, Albanians, Bosnians, Greek Muslims, Indonesians, Afro-American Nation of Islam followers, and Black Muslims in Africa are all united under a single culture. I suppose we could also throw in the thousands of White Germans that converted to Islam in the year 2006, and say that they are now a part of Islamic "culture?" Clearly this is not the case.. The article really makes very little sense. Further, Islamic art and architecture is heavily influenced by pre-Islamic ideas and thoughts, like the Byzantines, the North Africans and the Persians. No one would refer to Persian architecture as "Zoroastrian" architecture, just like no one refers to the collective category of Romanesque, Gothic, and Byzantine architecture as "Christian" architecture. The term Islamic Culture is meaningless.68.43.58.42 02:47, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

I would agree in the usage (in this case) of Islamic culture. Culture however is a peoples journey through time. Although some would krindge at the term "American Culture" the fact is that it exists. It exists becuase of the amalgamation of the different cultures it has brought into its melting pot.

However, Islamic culture (or Muslim culture) should be recognized with the same discourse. That it's tolerance of the various "cultures" allowed for new ideas. This in itself has meaning. To focus, Islamic culture is the result of practicing Islam to it's full effect. The change it manifests in people and places and governments would be to speak ill of it by not accepting it as a culture. However, do not associate local customs and practices as Islamic, rather as the tolerance of the Islamic culture towards them. What people do is their responsibility, not the religions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.230.195.10 (talk) 17:17, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Rename page ?

How about renaming this page Islamic culture. I've created a category Islamic culture, but this should not cause too much confusion. Thoughts ? MP (talk) 18:29, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Islam Template

This article is linked from the {{islam}} template, should the template be added? Which is to say is this article "part of a series of articles on Islam"? -Kode 23:10, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

There is only one form of Islamic Marriage

As-salamu alaikum

Please do not utilize the minority view as if it were mainstream and majority, as has been done with mut'ah. This is outlawed by the final prophet to humanity during his lifetime. No one practiced it after that until people, as they usually do, started following their nafs and desires.

Thank you. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.41.109.85 (talk) 03:59, 3 March 2007 (UTC).

Movin' on up!

As per previous suggestions on the talk page, we should move this to Islamic culture. I believe that is more common in secular academia anyway. --Enzuru 18:37, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Taj Mahal Picture

Tajmahal has nothing to do with Islam. Remove it.

Assalam Alaykom, I actually disagree with putting a picture of Taj Mahal as a lead picture to the page. I would rather see a picture of Al Kaaba or the prophet mosque in medina. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.227.40.9 (talk) 08:51, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree. What has the Taj Mahal got to do with Islam? 80.41.246.100 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 08:30, 18 May 2009 (UTC).

Well, for one, the Taj Mahal was built by a Muslim ruler... - ZakariyaAliSher (talk) 12:55, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

okay, but we know that the Taj Mahal is located in India, which is largely a Hindu nation (~80% of the population). I think most people that are aware of the Taj Mahal, know that it is located in India. Also one can conclude that it has largely become synonymous with Indian culture. Seeing the Taj Mahal as the emblem for 'Islamic culture' might lead (and obviously has) to confusion as to what is the dominant culture in India. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.15.163.245 (talk) 10:56, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

India is a largely Hindu nation, but has the worlds 3rd largest Muslim population after Indonesia and Pakistan. As for the Taj Mahal - It is a huge symbol of Islamic culture all over the world, and as for the confusion of cultures- India is a secular country meaning no religion or culture dominates it. --∗∗Farah Desai Khan∗∗ (talk) 22:20, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

It would be better to add your comments and discuss this issue here. --∗∗Farah Desai Khan∗∗ (talk) 22:39, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm mad

This article has undergone biased and dangerous influences. Children who are not familiar with Islam will read this garbage and believe it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.153.76.87 (talk) 19:33, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree. This article has serious issues. Morten Isaksen (talk) 16:49, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Needs Clarification

First of all, as a Muslim I am going to say that I think this article is a good addition to wikipedia, or rather, has the potential to be a good article. Islam - like any religion - has inspired great works of art, calligraphy, music, literature and architecture. One need only look at world renowned wonders like the Taj Mahal, the Burj al-Arab, the Thousand and One Nights, or the qawwali music of the late Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan.

However, I am also going to say that I have some concerns about this article. First of all, what constitutes 'Islamic art' from 'non-Islamic' or 'pre-Islamic' art? While there are some things that absolutely represent Islamic art - such as Qur'anic calligraphy, Masjid and Sufi music - other things are more dubious. Should we include all works of art, music, film and literature created by a Muslim artist or within a predominantly Muslim country? Is something born of Turkish, Persian, Arabic, Sahelian or South Asian culture automatically assumed to be "Muslim"?

The problem I have is that cultural and even secular works of art probably shouldn't be included in here, and yet at the same time, its arguable as to what exactly IS non-Islamic in many countries. If we are to include, say, classical Arabic music then what would exclude the courtly traditions West Africa or the Swahili Coast?

Which brings me to the other point... the claim made later in the article that sub-Saharan Africa and Southeast Asia had 'less impact' on the rest of the Islamic world. That is absolutely untrue. Indonesia represents the world's largest Muslim population, and Arabic, Persian and Indian culture has contributed elements to Malay and Indonesian culture. The same with sub-Saharan Africa. Many of the Sufi brotherhoods in West Africa have North African origins, while East African taarab music even SOUNDS Arabic and Indian!

I think that this article needs to be cleaned up and broadened to include various elements of Islamic influence, but at the same time I also think that contibutors need to be cautious not to assume any bias. In other words, this shouldn't read like an article about the culture of the Middle East or the culture of South Asia.

Just my two cents on the issue. What do other people think?

- ZakariyaAliSher (talk) 12:35, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

I also think like you that there's a confusion in this article between Islamic culture and culture from Muslim-majority countries. So according to you, Yağlı güreş and Kurash are Islamic martial arts?--Chrono1084 (talk) 14:22, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Islamic civilization

Having become familiar with Hodgson and Lewis, I began to notice the same issues on WP identified and addressed with the creation of this article in 2006. I have posted a project proposal for Islamic civilization. I found this page yesterday after I noticed Western civilization redirects to Western culture.

I wish to address a gap in the organization of Islamic material on Wikipedia, and by doing so, address an underlying misconception about Islam. Islamic civilization has traditionally been multiracial and multicultural; in fact, Islamic civilization has traditionally included large numbers of peoples who were not Muslims. To speak of things Islamic can be misleading in certain contexts.

Please see the comments of the original author above. This is about improving our coverage of the subject matter in question: the Islamicate, as Hodgson would say. How we organize and present the material can be as important as the content, in terms of the accuracy of our depictions. Aquib (talk) 11:36, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Dancing forbidden?

"Dance is permissible for women within a female only environment and is often performed at celebrations.[16] Dancing is prohibited for men.[17] Again, some Sufi orders are the exception to this rule.[18]"

This categorical statement about dance being prohibited for men should probably be relativised: 1. it's highly debatable (the great Sunni theologian Imam Al-Ghazali's Alchemy of Happiness definitely says otherwise , and he was a Shafi'i i.e. a puritan in his time), 2. I can't find the statement in the source (which is a book on medicine and theology, not primarily on Islamic fiqh...), 3. Even if many (but surely not all) fiqh scholars believed it to be so (and that needs to be proved), let us remember that mediaeval fiqh scholars aren't "most Muslims" and Muslim men definitely do dance, and a lot, as anyone who has been to any Muslim wedding or traditional Eid celebration will be able to attest - in all Muslim cultures including Arabian Bedouins e.g. with their tribal dances.

Next, "some Sufi orders are the exception", that would actually be all of them except one, the Naqshbandiyya, and the Sufi missionaries and then Tariqa's are the institutions that have dominated the religious life of the whole Muslim world for practically all of Muslim history except for their decline in the last century, so when most tariqa's practice something it's basically mainstream traditional Muslim culture worldwide, not quite "an exception", no? 125.24.119.119 (talk) 10:38, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

From Reliance of the Traveller (Umdat ul-Salik), major 14th c. manual of Shafi'i fiqh, section r40.4 called "Dancing":

"Nawawi: It is not prohibited to dance which is not unlawful because it is only motions made while standing or bowing. Furani and others have expressly stated that neither is it offensive, but rather is permissible, as is attested to by the hadith related in the Sahihs of Bukhari and Muslim that the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peaee) stood before 'A'isha (Allah be well pleased with ber) to screen her from view so that she could observe the Abyssinians sporting and dancing)--unless it is languid, like the movements of the effeminate (Mughni al-muhtaj ila ma'rita ma'ani altaz alMinhaj (y73), 4.430)." (p. 794)

I'll make some changes. 125.24.119.119 (talk) 10:50, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

References

Requesting wider attention

I felt article Islamic_literature is in bit of neglect so I added my note on talk page there, requesting to take note of Talk:Islamic_literature#Article_review. If possible requesting copy edit support. Suggestions for suitable reference sources at Talk:Islamic_literature is also welcome.

Posting message here too for neutrality sake

Thanks and greetings

Bookku (talk) 08:10, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

Difference between Muslim .... and Islamic .... ?

Greetings,

This is basically continuation of first round of discussion which took place previously @ Talk:Islamic literature and Wikipedia:Village_pump_(miscellaneous)

Present Wikipedia tendency

An average tendency on Wikipedia seems to be of transforming word Muslim into Islam or Islamic wherever possible without visiting nuanced aspects. As a small example title Islamic feminism is nuanced and correct since it specifically refers to theory of Islam. But is it correct to redirect title Muslim women to Women in Islam those who are not exposed to nuances might think so. Some might take refuge to fallacy of Appeal to popularity, but nuanced view suggests otherwise. Pl. do read on below given copy pasted discussion from Talk:Islamic literature

Here comes concept of normative.

• Quick google search of term Normative gives definition as "...establishing, relating to, or deriving from a standard or norm, especially of behaviour...."

Is present lack of nuanced approach, risks throwing in and enforcing a sided normative. All Islamic art can be called Muslim art, but whether all Muslim art can be called Islamic art. For example recently one Saira Khan recently openly declared of not being practicing Muslim, and still we can not list her in List of former Muslims so formally remains a Muslim at the most one can categories them in Cultural Muslim; take one more point, there can be former Muslim who reverts to Islam is it easy to classify their art Muslim or Islamic ? Or take example of M.F. Husain many of his drawings are of living things so whether it is safe to classify his art Muslim or Islamic ? :File:Khamseh Nizami 001.jpg is included in article Islamic Art how far it can be called Islamic Art or is it safer to call it Muslim art?

Those Wikipedians who do have lesser familiarity with Muslims or Islam usually tend to take position I/We don't have understanding on the topic, pl. go over to WP talk:WikiProject Islam, even when topic is critical of Islam that is categorized Islamic project pl. go over to WP talk:WikiProject Islam. Doesn't it risks throwing in and enforcing a sided normative?

Scholarship highlighting this issue

1) According to [1] Muslim is purely someone who practices Islam and Islamic is anything influenced by Islam or produced by Muslims.

2.1) According to M.M. Knight, when one does not speak for real Islam (i.e.'an abstracted ideal' that floats above, Muslim, human cultures but speaks for 'lived traditions') it is preferable to use the term Muslim instead of the term Islam or Islamic.

2.2) M.M. Knight further says,terms 'Islam/ Islamic' imposes claim of normativity, which is distinct with lived experiences hence need not be conflated. (My emphasis)

Question of Grammar

One copyeditor user Dakinijones points out his difficulties @ Talk:Islamic literature, he says:

...According to [2] Muslim is purely someone who practices Islam and Islamic is anything influenced by Islam or produced by Muslims. So I’ve done some of the (requested via women’s rights article) copyediting on that basis. Please correct my ignorances with sources if wrong. Thanks!...

Similar points of grammar have been discussed @ Wikipedia:Village_pump_(miscellaneous) similar to [3] their point is architecture, music, art, thought are not humans so saying Muslim architecture, Muslim music, Muslim art, Muslim thought, should be avoided.

Since personally I am more concerned with normative I am okay with Muslim architecture, Muslim music, Muslim art, Muslim thought since those are more inclusive terms in spite issues of grammar inaccuracies, but terms are understandable to human mind; my human brain can very well understand those terms as 'architecture/ music/ art/ thought created by Muslims.'

Nuanced differences and other Wikipedia articles

Please see below given table.

List of articles With Word Muslim or Islam in title

	Muslim	Islam	Comment
	Muslim dietary laws		This needs to be Islamic dietary laws ?
		Apostasy in Islam	Article Former Muslim of Ex Muslim needs to exist separately because title Apostasy in Islam has Islamic normative that atheists don't share?
		Islamic culture	Needs to be Muslim culture?
		Islamic literature	Needs to be Muslim literature?
		Islamic Golden Age	Needs to be Muslim Golden Age ?
		Women in Islam	Need to be Muslim women?
		Islamophobia	Need to be Anti Muslim Sentiment?

• Would term Muslim culture represent cultural diversity among Muslim communities over time and places reflect better than monolithic representation in term "Islamic culture"?

• Can we draw a parallel, In between Your point differentiating between "Women in Islam" and "Muslim women" and Apostasy in Islam and Former muslims being both valid, and have entirely different normative directions?

I am very well aware of grammar related points of Maproom & Louis P. Boog maintained by them and others @ Wikipedia:Village_pump_(miscellaneous) and not too keen to break grammar related rules but want other readers also to be aware of issues involved for wider consultations. Bookku (talk) 11:26, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

References

Requesting inputs

Greetings,

Adequate and nuanced overview for even non– Muslim audience is expected out of the articles Muslims and Muslim world. Whether the articles are achieving that purpose adequately? Requesting and expecting proactive participation in providing inputs from non–Muslim audience too along with Muslim users.

Since the article Muslim world is tagged various improvements it can not be submitted to formal review process still I feel the article deserves more inputs for content improvement.

Requesting your visit to the articles

• Muslims and
• Muslim world

and provide your inputs @

• Talk:Muslims/Archive 8#Requesting inputs and
• Talk:Muslim world#Requesting inputs

Thanks

Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 06:42, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

I request adding a criticism section

There are no such thing as Islamic culture.. it is the culture of people who happen to be Muslim . The belief that there Islamic culture is sth promoted by supporters of the Caliphate, a Muslim from Nigeria neither acts nor thinks like a Muslim from Malaysia 197.133.236.130 (talk) 17:06, 2 September 2022 (UTC)