Talk:Italian cuisine/Archive 1

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Archive 1

List of Italian dishes

The big list that was on this page has been moved to List of Italian dishes. - AKeen 03:14, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Spelling Error

First bibliographic resource published by "Columbia University" in New York. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.39.40.156 (talk) 18:07, 11 September 2009 (UTC)


"digestives", liquors/liqueurs

The entry beginning with the above needs better spaced punctuation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.217.209.23 (talk) 18:32, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Regional cuisines

I'm confused by the addition of these with little to no information. Regions that have some information should be made into their own articles, and linked to from the main page, a la Sicilian cuisine. Others just seem dubiously named ("Sudtiroler cuisine"?) and should probably not be here. - AKeen 18:48, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

I've moved the remaining content of these regional paragraphs here until someone can make them into their own pages. We already have a regional section on the main page, and these little paragraphs weren't adding much - AKeen 17:43, 14 February 2007 (UTC):

Regional cuisines

  • Cuisine of Abruzzo: This area is predominantly mountains with some small valleys, and sheepherding, farming and livestock were all traditional ways of living. As such, pork, sheep, and goat are the main meats eaten in Abruzzo. Abruzzese cuisine is one of the few in Italy which uses hot peppers to any degree, and the Abruzzese call their red chili peppers diavolino or "little devils."
  • Cuisine of Calabria: Pork is the dominant meat, and there is often a striking balance between meat and vegetables in many Calabrese dishes. Eggplant is used extensively in Calabrese cuisine.

Pasta

Somewhere is written "... pasta is quite popular in the region.." about Emilia Romagna. Well, this region is one of the most known in Italy (maybe THE most known) for all different kinds of pasta they produce, expecially for the filled sorts. Just think that the major Pasta producers in the world (such as Barilla) are mostly from this region. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.190.230.105 (talk) 22:20, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Types of Italian Coffee

The content of this subheading appears to contain odd/erroneous information:

Italian coffee is usually compared to American espresso. Italian coffee is usually very strong. There are numerous types of Italian coffee, or caffè as it is called in Italian. Caffè macchiato is referred to as stained coffee. This contains a lot of coffee and a tiny bit of milk. Caffè ristretto is a shortened version of espresso. This is very strong and contains no milk. Caffelatte is a type of coffee where there is equal amounts of coffee and milk. These three types of coffee are more commonly drunk at breakfast or at bars. A cappuccino is the common breakfast drink of Italians. It is very similar to American cappuccinos, containing frothy milk and coffee. Italian espresso is extremely strong (the strongest of the coffees). Usually, if an American asks for espresso, the Italian waiter will understand and serve a regular coffee.

Espresso is predominantly associated with Italy, and attaching the "American" descriptor is unnecessary. Coffee is espresso because of how it is brewed, not where it is brewed. Caffe ristretto is strong, but not because it contains no milk. It is strong because less water is used in the brewing process. There's no support for the assertation that cappuccino is the common breakfast drink of Italians. Perhaps it would be best to leave it at the fact that cappuccinos are normally drunk at breakfast. Again, there's no need to say it's similar to American cappuccinos. The statement that espresso is the strongest of all the coffees is unsubstantiated and vague. Which coffees? All of the coffee drinks listed in this section have an espresso base. The final statement regarding an American asking for espresso and being served a regular coffee is personal observation/opinion and doesn't belong at all. A regular coffee in Italy is, in fact, an espresso. Sofia Mena 10:53, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

This has been updated. 66.183.217.31 18:25, 1 March 2007 (UTC)


Something about italian cheeses

You should include a little space about Italian cheeses as gorgonzola, fontina, mozzarella, pecorino (whereof might also describe regional variances), ricotta et cetera. The number of Italian is the most plentiful in Europe afther France. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.55.130.140 (talk • contribs)

Regional cuisine

I am working on the expansion of this section, please do not delete the extra regions as I will be expanding them in the next couple days, thanks.--Christopher Tanner, CCC 02:40, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Can I suggest to add some more information about Italian cuisine? I mean: talking about the Mediterranean diet for the cuisines of Liguria, Central and Southern Italy (but not Northern Italy); talking about "polenta" as a typical distinctive dish of regions north of river Po, since it is very common in local cuisines and very important for folk culture; the use of game meat in several dishes all along Italy.

And the use of certain meats in some regional cuisine, as e.g. duck, goose, horse and donkey meat, or pork, steer adn chicken entrails in Venetian cuisine: why not including a very typical dish as "fegato alla veneziana", "Venice-style liver", which is usually calf liver cooked with onion; or "spezzatino di cavallo (horse)" and "spezzatino di musso (which means donkey in Venetian language)", meat stew of horse or donkey; or the ancient tradition of "oca in onto", a goose pickled and cooked in its own fat ("onto", another word in Venetian language). And also the "bigoli", a very typical Venetian kind of pasta, they are a kind of rough spaghetti, often cooked with "ragù" (steer meet and tomato sauce), "funghi" (mushrooms), "anitra" (duck meat) or the typical sea dish of "bigoli in salsa" (cooked with an anchovies sauce). Other typical dishes of the coast area are the "sarde in saòr" (bonitos - not sardines as written - pinkled in the "saòr", a sauce of raisin and onion) and the "anguilla" (eel) cooked "fritta" (fried) or "arrosta" (roasted) in the area of the Po mouths. In the mountains, instead, we have dishes of "Austrian" tradition, like "goulasch" (Goulaschsuppe), "canederli" (Speckknoedel) and "strudel" (Apfelstruedel), or game meat, pork meat, mushrooms and cheeses, often served together with "polenta". Also, "polenta" in some area of Veneto (usually the coast and nearby) can be served in her "white" variety, instead of the usual "yellow".

In meal structure, polenta is cited as a "first course": this is completely wrong, since it used to be served with antipasto or with the second course (often just as guarnition), never with the first (only pasta, rice or soup - gnocchi is usually considered a kind of pasta). Filippo, 16:00 16 October 2008 - 00:00 23 October 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.162.15.3 (talk) 14:06, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Some lines about Pellegrino Artusi

In my opinion, some lines about Pellegrino Artusi and his book La scienza in cucina e l'arte di mangiar bene (1891) could be intersting, because they were important for the idea of a Italian cuisine. In fact La scienza in cucina includes recipes from all the different regions of Italy that was separeted in a lot of little states until Italian unification (1861). Forgive for my bad English and thanks for consideration. --82.53.56.53 18:27, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

When I get to work on the history section for national cuisine on the article I will be including information on him.--Christopher Tanner, CCC 19:34, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Adding outside imitators and the like

I have been finding a lot of information of other cultures imitating Italian cuisine and other items from the food culture, which are unnecessary to state. Every food culture is imitated in some way in different parts of the world, Italian cuisine is no more so than any other cuisine so I think we can leave these points out.--Christopher Tanner, CCC 19:36, 3 August 2007 (UTC)


Recommendation about some orthographic mistakes

I think there are some orthographic mistakes in the article. I'm born in Arezzo, so I think the correct form of panina gialla arentina is "panina gialla aretina" (without the second letter n). Moreover "florentina", "caprese", "tarantina" and "napoletana" are common adjectives of place so their first letter is small. All the same "castrato" is a common noun, so it's wrote with small c. Also "ripiena" is an adjective so it's wrote with small r (for example "cima ripena). In Italian oxtail is translated in "coda di bue". If you want I could correct these unimportant mistakes. My Italian is better that my English :). Thank for the consideration, --82.53.56.53 21:43, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

P.S: Now the "bistecca alla florentina" usually called "bistetta alla fiorentina" (noun "florentina" is characteristic of middle Italian).

Please feel free to fix them, my Italian experience is non-existent. I honestly copied the translations from the book I was doing research from, so I would appreciate the help from an authentic Italian. Usually when I work on an article like this, with such extensive editing, I always appreciate people who edit such items.--Christopher Tanner, CCC 22:54, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I am very happy when I can be helpful, I just fixed those imprecisions. --82.51.56.6 11:45, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

There are (or were) a lot of linguistic errors. That’s not at all a criticism of you, Christopher Tanner, CCC, we all use the best sources we can find and hope that their errors will be corrected in due time. But it does rather make one wonder about the quality of the book you were using. —Ian Spackman 11:55, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Let me rephrase that more clearly, at the cost of being blunter. Imagine that this was an article on another aspect of Italian culture, literature, for instance—say Petrarch. Now imagine that it became clear that the source being used was written by someone who had difficulties with the Italian language. Honestly we would have to say ‘Stop! We appreciate your attempt to improve what was a very poor article, but this is not the way to do it. It will be a waste of your time and that of future editors of the Wikipedia in correcting the errors introduced. Please try to find better sources.’ hmmm —Ian Spackman 14:42, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Regional Sections

Good work expanding the article; however, the Calabria section can use help from the existing section at Calabria#Calabrian Cuisine. Mariokempes 05:46, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Each region on here is a summary of a region, if they are to be expanded upon they should have their own well written articles with the local cuisine history and extensive information. As is I still need to put in a large amount of information of the national cuisine, the history of the national cuisine, information on restaurants, expand upon coffee/espresso, cheese, wine, possibly a section on bread, pasta and cured meats and sausages. The section currently points to the Calabria article which would give the reader the ability to read from that existing article, feel free to edit this page without making the section bigger, but at the same time using citations.--Christopher Tanner, CCC 14:17, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Unique dishes

I would like to politely ask that if you are going to add another unique dish to a section that is more unique than an existing dish in a section, remove one of the old ones. If you want to add all of your dishes add them to the List of Italian dishes or this article is just going to end up a mess of recipes which it is not intended to be. There is much more info I plan to add to this article and all these dishes will make it overly "list like".--Christopher Tanner, CCC 15:17, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I would like to mirror this "don't go overboard with the dishes" sentiment. When I first came upon this page in early 2006 it was purely a list, which has since been moved to "List of Italian dishes". This article has come a long way with content, and I would hate to see it creep back to its old list form - AKeen 15:39, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
I think that I would go a little further and suggest removing entirely the little lists of unique dishes, incorporating them where appropriate into the prose about the region’s eating habits. —Ian Spackman 11:47, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Comments

Incorporating them into the prose would create bulky paragraphs and make them difficult and undesirable to read for some readers. As for the grammar for Italian grammar for the page that is why there are multiple editors, not just the one person writing the article. I have though in fact planned to go over more specifically my writing to make sure it all fits, sort of like writing a proper paper, but as people have jumped in that is the way it works. I do in fact have quite a bit of knowledge on the cuisine, but the language is something I must take from another book with existing titles. I removed the part on the Germanic tribes, which could've been done if contested, I should have been more specific with it but I will just remove it instead to avoid argument. I have moved the unique dishes over in a similar format to List of Italian dishes.--Christopher Tanner, CCC 16:56, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Just an added note, I'll refrain from using the "Culinaria" book for language source as I think that was where most of the issue comes from, or better yet I will avoid attempting to write anything in Italian and one of you guys, such as Ian who obviously has a better grasp on the language than I.--Christopher Tanner, CCC 17:02, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
I wouldn’t place much trust in my Italian if I were you;) But the issue is one of the reliability of sources. To step sideways, for a moment, I have an Italian friend who extracts great comedy from reading the menus posted outside Italian restaurants in England. Sometimes it’s clear that the restaurant is simply a fake. But on other occasions it may be that the proprietor is an emigre who understands how to cook authentically but never learnt how to spell. In the case of a book, however, one tends to feel that if neither its author nor its editor has learnt to spell its culinary content may be a bit dubious. Add to that the fact that most writing about food seems to be based on absolute ignorance about anything but food (there are notable exceptions) and the only conclusion you can draw is—don’t let my pedantry put you off. You hit upon a dire article and are improving it. Good! —Ian Spackman 23:21, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
The Culinaria book I have is sorta alright, but written in a very nonacademic light. I have a book written by Waverly Root coming to me in the next few days which I have been wanting to buy for awhile and this gives me a reason. It has a good amount of history and current research on the different regions. Until then I am going to continue with the history section as the primary sources used for the research of these books is quite sound. BTW, pretty much all of the cuisine articles on Wikipedia are in bad shape, they are sort of what I plan on concentrating on for the immediate future. As I work on each one I get better ideas for organization, such as the listing of unique dishes in the way I have it formated now (hopefully you guys find it more appealing as well). As an addition, many American menus for both Italian and French cuisines are written by people who haven't a clue. --Christopher Tanner, CCC 23:38, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

GA review

I get a warm, tingly sensation when I see such massive improvements and expansions of articles on major topics like this. I am very close to passing this at first glance, but since I know we have at least one very ambitious editor working on this, I have a few concerns that I think are relevant. Mind you, these are more suggestions than absolute demands for GA status, though some are more urgent than others. In other words, I warmly welcome discussion on the validity of the criticism.

  • Historical records of the cuisine of the common people are few and very oblique before the modern period, but I seem to recall seeing at least reasonable deductions and speculation from food historians when reading on medieval and early modern cuisine. Is it possible to add such material to the history section?
I will look into what I have, most of my early peasant foodways info. comes from France and Arab regions. In the books I have on Italian food history, there is no mention of the info you have used for Medieval cuisine or which I used for French cuisine. I'll look though, perhaps the Cambridge Encyclopedia of Food History has something in it. I as yet for some dumb reason don't own that yet (could be the $300 price tag) but we have a copy at my universities' library.
  • The periodization of the history section employs general and common historical eras in the first two sub-sections, but then proceeds to numbered centuries. These seem to coincide quite well with the early modern and modern periods. Any objection to using these headings instead?
I think changing to early modern and modern is ideal.
  • "Regional cuisines" is without doubt exhausting, but it verges on the listy. Is it by any chance possible to paint this picture with somewhat broader strokes?
I had considered changing the way I did French cuisine but I feared voices on this page desiring importance of single areas.
  • "Dining out" is clearly written from a tourist's perspective (and referenced with a Lonely Planet-book). Are the proper greeting phrases and payment customs really encyclopedic enough in this context? I'm thinking primarily of Wikipedia not being a travel guide.
Proper greetings should be removed, you are correct.

*I know next to nothing about the finer points of Italian wines, but as far as I know Italy is second only to France in the prestige of its viticulture. It doesn't seem as if three sentences is quite enough to cover such an important topic.

That was something I thought about after I added the GA request, I need a section on cheeses as well.
  • There are only four sources used for the article. While I take pride in trying to judge referencing in qualitative rather than quantitative terms, this seems a tad skimpy. But I must admit this might just as well be an issue for a future featured article candidacy. Any comments?
The history comes from two books that are valid. I used that Lonely Planet thing just to get a different perspective actually. In my opinion, they are all better than using a website for citation however. I'll also have to say when writting a paper that would be this small (although this is not primary resource research) 4-5 books are generally encouraged that have high-quality information rather than that ridiculous amount of sources we ended up with on the Food article.--Chef Christopher Allen Tanner, CCC 19:36, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Peter Isotalo 10:26, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

--Chef Christopher Allen Tanner, CCC 18:47, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
Oh, and I forgot one thing. The pics scattered throughout the article are in some cases teeny-tiny. Could they be blown up a tad for clarity? And is it possible to have a few additional photos of full-blown dishes (rather than just produce and ingredients)?
Peter Isotalo 10:33, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
Comments above were all made by myself. If you have suggestions on where you think the pictures may be appropriate, please let me know. The small pictures re there because if they were made larger they would not be in the context of the region they are fitted into. I have only my own perspective, another person's would help.--Chef Christopher Allen Tanner, CCC 18:47, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
Additional comment - I sorta thought about this all day and really thought that each of these regions could have their own article on cuisine potentially, with these merely serving as summaries. Cutting them down into regions of North/South/Mediteranean etc. would remove the entirely uniqueness that Italian cuisine has in its regionalism. Very few cuisines in the world identify themselves so strongly with regionalism and this is based possibly mostly upon the way the region's culture developed. The only other thing I could think of is to create a separate article entitled Regional cuisines of Italy and create a summary heading in this article. I would greatly welcome other's comments on this.--Chef Christopher Allen Tanner, CCC 19:34, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
This is a very convincing argument, Christopher. I'll strike that comment for now. I do remember now that the chapter on Italy in Regional Cuisines of Medieval Europe also stressed a great variety of fiercly regionalized cuisine even back in the High and Late Middle Ages. The suggestion about separate articles, or at least one article covering just the regional varieties is definitely worth pursuing, but I don't think it should affect the GA nomination. At most, it might be a future FA requirement.
Peter Isotalo 11:02, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
I am going to change it to a summary section for the next step toward FA status as the section is just too big anyways and makes the index huge.--Chef Christopher Allen Tanner, CCC 05:47, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
I think the latest additions are enough to satisfy my requests for improvement and I am therefore passing the article. The addition of a section on cheese will be a most excellent step toward featured article status, though my recommendation is to try to include this in a somewhat broader section on foods in general. A suggested set of subsections could, for example, include sections called "Meats", "Pasta", "Spices", "Vegetables", "Olive oil" or whatever seems most relevant. Along with the condensing of the section on the regional cuisines, I believe this would be quite enough to make it a fine featured article candidate.
Christopher, you are a skilled and valuable contributor. I look forward to work with you again in the future.
Peter Isotalo 12:49, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Origin of Tortellini

Hi, the article says that Tortellini are from Piacenza. As far as I know the invention of this kind of pasta is disputed between Bologna and Modena (the town of Castelfranco Emilia is said to be the hometown of Tortellini and is halfway between the two cities). maybe that section should be uptated or this information removed.

--151.96.3.241 (talk) 10:27, 22 May 2008 (UTC) Francesco

"highly prized, coming from"

"The mozzarella is highly prized here, coming from the milk of water buffalo".

1. The cheese is prized because it is made from buffalo milk.

or

2. The cheese is made from buffalo milk and the cheese is prized.

I suggest eliminating the phrase "coming from". I cannot recall every hearing someone say, for example, "Steel is coming from iron" or "Cheese is coming from milk". Stwiso (talk) 20:29, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

De honesta voluptate et valetudine

There is an interesting review of De honesta voluptate et valetudine at Greenman Review. Maybe someone could use it to make that paragraph less listy. FatHanna (talk) 20:30, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

IMAGE OF SPAGHETTI BOLOGNESE???

I can't believe you actually put a picture of "spaghetti bolognese" in the very beginning of this page. Spaghetti Bolognese IS NOT ITALIAN! In Bolognese cuisine there are no spaghetti, they're Neapolitan!!! In Bologna, Bolognese sauce goes with tagliatelle!--Gspinoza (talk) 18:46, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

That is not spaghetti bolognese but spaghetti all' arrabbiata, and it is part of the info box not the article. --Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 08:12, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
When I wrote my comment above, the image on the page was different, and was indeed "Spaghetti bolognese". --Gspinoza (talk) 15:23, 1 March 2011 (UTC)


This is why Wikipedia is not reliable and why I stopped contributing long time ago. In this case a non-Italian dominating over an Italian subject. Btw there shouldn't be any cheese on pasta with Arrabbiata condiment. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Petermas (talk • contribs) 08:00, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Your reasoning does not make any sense. You stopped contributing to Wikipedia because you can modify that image that you feel is inappropriate (and which nobody is really saying it is appropriate)? PS: I am Italian and I definitely don't mind some pecorino on pasta all'arrabbiata. Gould80 (talk) 19:06, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

I am Italian and I do put cheese on pasta all'arrabbiata... --Conte di Cavour (talk) 00:13, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

I'm italian too and I put grated parmesan on Carbonara and on the Arrabbiata. Anyhow, culinary tastes aside, In Italy we have the "ragú alla bolognese" which is without tomato, it's just meat and spices (well, more complicated than that, but you got the idea). Next time I'm cooking it, I'll take a photo. Tomaradze (talk) 23:03, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
Italian cooking is regional cooking, and the users above are one from Piemonte and the other from Emilia, while they are talking about Roman dishes. Since I am from Rome can I put tomato in the ragu'? mmm... I can see some objections coming at me... :) I just want to say... when you cook for yourself in your kitchen just put anything you want in your dish, but when you write about Italian cooking be respectful of the basic rules of regional cooking. So, if we are having this little argument among Italians, imagine now when the moderator is not Italian. :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Petermas (talk • contribs) 04:16, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Regional ingredients

The central Italy ingredients subparagraph needs to be redone. To begin with, Emilia-Romagna is not central Italy (there is, after all, a mountain range separating it from central Italy). Secondly, lasagna and tortellini are decidedly not ingredients; they are rather complex dishes which themselves require a variety of ingredients to make (e.g. tortellini require pasta, a number of boiled meats and vegetables to prepare the stuffing and the soup, and spices). I am modifing it right now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.39.211.4 (talk) 17:49, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Wrong image.

The image with the caption "Traditional Alto Adige/Sudtirol speck" is not the traditional speck, but is the classic bacon. Looks "speck" in Italian wikipedia Andreabont (talk) 08:51, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

I have corrected the image and replace it with an image found on wikipedia commons Andreabont (talk) 09:14, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Wrong image 2.

The image with the caption "Risotto alla milanese with saffron" is a risotto with peas, is not the traditional Risotto alla Milanese. Andreabont (talk) 08:56, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

I have corrected the image and replace it with an image found on wikipedia commons Andreabont (talk) 09:26, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Pesto on pizza?

No way. I mean, if we're talking about italian cuisine, like the cuisine in Italy under a certain conservative/traditional view, I can't accept that pesto is "often eaten with pizza or pasta". I don't mind if we're talking about the use of pesto around the world or by personal taste but I don't think this is the case. So, I corrected the statement, removing "often" and "pizza". By the way, you can have potatoes, green beans and pasta sesoned with pesto, but altogether in a single dish. Tomaradze (talk) 23:12, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

External links deleted

I added an external link from this page to a non-profit, non-commercial scholarly blog about Italian food history. I am a food historian and run the blog with my colleague. It was deleted I was warned by Ian Spackman not to put inappropriate external links.

The blog is not for-profit: I am not so much interested in promoting it as having people who might be interested in Italian cuisine follow the link to what I consider a useful website about Italian culinary history from antiquity to today. It is not the typical "Margherita pizza" site, but rather two scholars who give news, sources, and commentary. I would like to understand why this is innapropriate. Thanks, Zach Nowak foodinitaly —Preceding undated comment added 07:59, 17 July 2011 (UTC).

First let us note that User:foodinitaly has an apparent conflict of interest in this matter and that s/he would be well advised to leave it to others to add links (or not) to the site http://www.foodinitaly.org, either as citations or as see-also-style external links. The editor has been apparently attempting to promote that site by links of both sorts. Using that site for citations is pretty much ruled out by its very nature as a blog. Of course blogs can be useful if they provide reliable sources which we can check out and cite directly, bypassing the blogger. However, I looked at a small number of articles on the site and, although I discovered a number which seemed quite interesting, I saw none which provided such citations. As for including the blog as an external link in an article like this one, we are guided by WP:EL, and in particular by Wikipedia:LINKSTOAVOID, where point 11 reads:
Links to blogs, personal web pages and most fansites, except those written by a recognized authority. (This exception for blogs, etc., controlled by recognized authorities is meant to be very limited; as a minimum standard, recognized authorities always meet Wikipedia's notability criteria for people.)
Those were the bases upon which I removed the link from this page, and from various others. However, seeing foodinitaly’s post above, I wondered if I had been too harsh and thought I would look at a few of the blog posts more closely, to see whether they lived up to the scholarly claims made above and in some of the edit summaries. I started (and finished) with the article at the top of the list: ‘Grape Gathering at San Columbano, c. 1905’: the version I read is archived here.
Now let us set aside the rather glaring typo in the title (everyone types typos) and move straight to the picture, and its caption: ‘c. 1905’. Now this is extremely interesting: it appears that people present at a Tuscan vendemmia, during the first decade of the twentieth century dressed up in eighteenth-century costumes. A fancy-dress ball to celebrate the bringing in of the harvest perhaps? Well no; nothing so interesting. And there is a reason why those mountains seem not quite reminiscent of the Tuscan Apeninnes. If this were a scholarly article, the image caption would read something like
Francisco de Goya, La vendimia (‘The Grape Harvest’), 1786–87, oil on canvas, 190 × 275 cm, Museo del Prado, Madrid.
According to the Spanish Wikipedia article on the painting, the landscape depicted is in or around La Rioja – so whatever they are going make with those grapes, it won’t come out tasting of Sangiovese. Using an eighteenth-century Spanish painting to illustrate an article on a twentieth-century Italian vintage seems like scholarship-lite. Now to the text. The article is unsigned (is that scholarly?) and provides no citations (that isn’t). The text appears to be be a first-hand account of a visit to San Colombano during the grape harvest and the scattering of italicised Italian words somehow makes it look as if it was written in English, rather than being a translation. The style is not unappealing but perhaps just a little old-fashioned for c.1905? Why is the author of this not given? Well google can help even us non-scholars in such matters. The account appears in Janet Ross, Italian Sketches (London: Kegan Paul, Trech & co., 1887), pp. 43–44. Scholars will quickly note the footnote on the first page of the preface and follow it up. In fact this chapter, ‘A September Day in the Valley of the Arno’, had previously been published in the English Illustrated Magazine: super-scholarly research a quick'n'dirty google book search for intitle:"English Illustrated Magazine" "pendice" turns up vol. 3 (1886), p. 809. Snippet view for some readers so let’s give the article link instead to the copy at Internet Archive. The extract quoted is on pp. 808–10. Observant readers—let alone scholars—will notice that the version here is not quite identical to that which appeared in the book appears in the blog: perhaps that is based on a later book by Ross: Old Florence and modern Tuscany (London: J. M. Dent, 1904), pp. 75–76. Personally I prefer the earlier version, if only because giving the name of the handsome young contadino with the heavy load—Cesare Benozzo—gives an air of authenticity.
So, the grape gathering did take place, but not at San Columbano, and no later than September 1886. [Where on earth did that c. 1905 date come from?] It seems, at the very least, unlikely that anyone present was dressed in the eighteenth-century manner. It seems still more unlikely that this blog is a candidate for inclusion in the list of external links for Italian cuisine. Ian Spackman (talk) 15:53, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
P.S. I think I can answer the question of where that ‘c. 1905’ comes from, and if I am correct some revealing light is thrown upon the scholarly practices at www.foodinitaly.org. A rather longer (but equally unattributed) version of the passage by Janet Ross appears on another blog with that date given. In fact the date probably applies to the postcard which it uses as an illustration. (Rather an appropriate postcard for a blog post which is not about Rioja. Its caption reads: ‘Firenze – Barroccio del Vino (Costumi Toscani)’.) What seems to corroborate this surmise is that the same glaring ‘San Columbano’ typo appears in florencecapital’s blog post of 6 July 2011. So it might appear that one way to ‘write’ an acceptable anonymous article for www.foodinitaly.org is to copy a blog post from elsewhere—without attribution—and to disguise the plagiarism by switching out an appropriate illustration and switching in a random image taken, probably, from Commons:Category:Vintage in art. I do hope that you can confirm that I have the wrong end of the stick. Ian Spackman (talk) 16:36, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

My name is Simon Young and I am co-editor of the food blog and the author of the post called into question here. I have nothing to do with the argument above between my fellow blogger, Zach and Ian Spackman (henceforth IS), but I cannot let the false charge of plagiarism pass as to call an academic a plagiarist is the equivalent of calling a member of the general public a paedophile. I will also post this on the food blog under the relevant post so there is a permanent record in two places.

This is not plagiarism (a) because the text is long out of copyright and (b) because I run FlorenceCapital the blog I am supposed to have stolen this from and, indeed, from which I take many food and drink quotations relating to nineteenth-century Italy, using them twice over.

For the record, if I had ever come across a case of plagiarism before even dreaming of making an accusation, I would have contacted both parties, the copier and the copied, to see what they had to say. Misunderstandings are easy, especially in an electronic format. Emails are available at both blogs. If IS had contacted either or both this would have been cleared up in a moment. As it was no trouble was taken before throwing an extraordinarily dangerous word in the direction of a complete stranger.

I can understand that in the heat of a discussion unwise things might have been said – though note again that this discussion did not involve me – but I have sent two emails to IS explaining the situation to him and asking him to make clear that there is no plagiarism: both emails are pasted below. He has not answered. I understand that even people of good will make mistakes - and IS seems a serious person - but I cannot comprehend when they fail to correct them.

I would normally not have troubled myself over the charges for the illustrations or the supposedly wrong text or the vague references but as they say something about how this argument was constructed I will answer them too. In the food blog I am typically interested in the text: the pictures are generic and of no independent value, unless I can find historical images where I normally write a post just on the image. If I write a post on beautiful people in my village and head it with a picture of the Mona Lisa the image serves as a handle for the text, it does not mean to say that I dwell in Renaissance Florence.

As to me misquoting... Janet Ross wrote and rewrote her essays. I read her second version and quoted from that. IS read the earlier and couldn’t understand why my version was different. In fact, he began his attack assuming I’d quoted wrongly from his source only later realising that there was a second version. I find this inexplicable but I can only imagine that he had not checked for the second before starting his invective. He then understood that there was a second text and changed the argument by saying his version was, in his opinion, more authentic. He is, of course, welcome to his opinion but for MY purposes the second was better. This was not, in any case, the issue that he had brought up and it is irrelevant to his argument.

Then there is the question of inexact references. When I quote from nineteenth-century texts, I do not put references because I will publish my next book on this in a couple of years and this is the way of sharing my research but at the same time protecting the collection I have slowly dug up. (When people write and ask me where a quotations comes from I always pass on the exact reference). I sometimes wonder if I am overworried – this is a small field – but I have come to doubt the good will of those I 'meet' on the internet!

I am presently taking legal advice on this matter: if IS would send me his postal address – he has my email – then he would considerably expedite things.

Simon Young


Ms/Mr Young: I know nothing of this controversy, not do I plan to look into it. I write only to let you know that "copyright" is an entirely different topic from "plagarism". The posters here seem to agree that the book you quoted from in your blog is in the public domain. Therefore, there's no copyright infringement. But it sounds as though you may have quoted the material without citing your source, implying that you were the original author. Large portions of public domain text can be used without problems (indeed, the whole thing can be put into your blog without infringing on copyright), but you must always remember to cite your sources, whether they are in the public domain or not, or risk being accused of plagarism for your failure to do so. How can a blog be considered scholarly when it lacks citations? You will want to consider editing the blog you already posted without citations in order to include them and don't forget to cite in the future.
United States Copyright Office: http://www.copyright.gov/
Wikipedia has multiple articles on copyright both for reseachers and editors.
Plagarism Today: http://www.plagiarismtoday.com/
All the best, Wordreader (talk) 00:37, 22 September 2011 (UTC)


Email (1) Fri 9/2/11. Dear Ian, You kindly left a comment on a blog that I co-write, foodinitaly, to which I left an answer a while back. However, I’ve just come back from holiday to see that the debate has spilled over (or spilled out from) a Wikipedia discussion page where the word ‘plagiarism’ is used. The discussion there is between my fellow-blogger Zach - who sent me the link (below) - and you and I don’t honestly understand the technical side of it: i.e. the rights and wrongs of wikipedia attribution. I appreciate though that you have you opinions on the suitability of Goya, different textual versions etc. However, I was surprised with your use of ‘plagiarism’ that in our business (very rightly) loses people their jobs. This is not plagiarism because (i) the material is long, long out of copyright and (ii) because I also run the blog Florencecapital and I often put up nineteenth-century food and drink posts on both when interest overlaps. If you’d sent an email to foodintaly or Florencecapital or left a comment I would have told you this. There are many bad people on the internet – Russian hackers, groomers, Nigerian conmen... - and I wish you luck in hunting them down. But I am not one of them. Would you mind then modifying your comment or adding an explanation? I imagine that it is all based on a misunderstanding but you will understand that given these blogs make no money and are a service for the tiny numbers who read them it is a bit worrying to see such words bandied around! Many thanks, Ian, hoping we meet next time under happier circumstances. Simon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Italian_cuisine

Email (2) Monday, September 12 Dear Ian, As you have not answered or acted on this email I must assume you have no intention of correcting the mistake you made. At this point, with great reluctance, I am forced to take this to the next level. If I hear nothing by Friday midnight gmt I will act. Simon Young — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.41.203.251 (talk) 07:22, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

As I have no reason to doubt that you are the author of both blogs, and as (rather clearly!) one cannot plagiarise oneself, I have struck the comment above. I hope that is satisfactory.
I shall be on holiday and therefore away from Wikipedia, etc. [I really only dip in here currently anyway these days] for the next fortnight, but will have a look here again then. As to whether the website passes WP:EL (not the question you are raising) I am happy to leave that question to other editors. I recall that there was a very interesting-seeming article—which I am afraid I only skim-read—on one of the Italian salt roads. But the other articles I looked at, which seemed to involve copying stuff from out-of-copyright sources without giving accurate attributions, did seem to me to be unscholarly. Since the scholarly nature of the blog seemed relevant to the WP:EL question—the question which I was addressing—that seemed to be relevant.
Ian Spackman (talk) 16:24, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Thanks to Ian for deleting the relevant passages. I only came on this site to correct an error of fact. That error has been corrected and I’m going to resist being drawn on other questions save noting that under the legal system in which I live (as I’ve discovered in the last weeks of soundings) plagiarism and copyright are intimately connected. SY — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.41.196.77 (talk) 06:31, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Regions list

For ease of reading, the list should be in alphabetical order. 206.248.164.212 (talk) 23:54, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

Disagree. The current order, roughly north to south, groups similar regional cuisines together. --Macrakis (talk) 03:05, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

Calabria

The cuisine of Calabria has been influenced by conquerors and visitors. The Arabs brought oranges, lemons, raisins, artichokes and egg plants

This is wrong.Calabria was for centuries byzantine and greek speaking until the norman conquest.the only muslims were the barbary pirates that raided the coast of the mediterranean for slaves resulting in peoples escaping to the rugged muntains in the interior; and certanly these slave raiders didn't introduced oranges and lemons.

either these products were alredy present during the byzantine empire,which is possible, or were imported by the normans after the conquest of sicily

alex — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.4.103.197 (talk) 23:20, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

About spaghetti

Arabic documentation show that spaghetti (called Trivia) was produced in Sicily (In the zone of Trabia, west Sicily) and from them exportede in Syria and in north Italy. Arabic do not have a production of spaghetti in arabic countrys. spaghetti for what we know now are a Sicilian Invention. Spaghetti was produced in that time, just in the same way are made today, with the differents of machinery. The methodology of Sicilian spaghetti making is very different from the methodology used in asiatic country, an other basic different is the use of semolina (the come form durum) in the Italian spaghetti. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.200.143.94 (talk) 02:22, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

Pesto Pasta

In Nancy’s article on how Italian have consumed almost twice the national average then American ever though capable of doing (Jenkins, 1997). Nancy goes on to saying that even though most American believe that fresh cut pasta is the better tasting then out of the box pasta she was able to disprove that fact by actually getting some of the worlds top of the worlds Italian chefs to come out publicly and say that fresh or out of the box pasta dose not matter but the sauce you will end up putting on top of the pasta that truly makes the meal so amazing to eat (Jenkins, 1997). Most chefs say that since out of the box pasta goes under strict government monitoring the box is better and trust worthy then fresh made pasta. Latter on in her article she refers back to idea of the sauce and how pesto is one of the top three sauce that are most commonly used when making a plate of pasta since it is simple taste great and great for large families and get together.


In Burrell article she wrote in the Contra Costa Times she speaks on the fact of how many restaurants had made pesto it main ingredient in many of their dishes (Burrell, August 14th 2012). She saw a wide variety of pesto being used not just to make pasta but also to make delicious food that came in all shapes and forms. She did see how when people actually make their pesto they each use their own special and signature recipe to surprise the eater’s taste buds (Burrell, August 14th 2012).


Once again another article written by Burrell she is informing us on Italians have strong sense of passion for pesto and for the simple reasoning being that it is one of the most organic and fresh sauce most Italians cook (Burrell, October 1st 2012). Pesto consists of basil nuts and olive oil and most of these ingredients are highly popular ingredients used to cook for Italians. Since pesto consisted of such natural ingredients Italians find healthy and very delicious to serve to their families and friends (Burrell, October 1st 2012).

References

Jenkins, Nancy H. (1997, September 17). From Italy, the truth about pasta; the Italians know that less is more: a call for a return to basics. The New York Times


Burrell, Jackie. (2012, August 14). Pesto is the essence of summer. Contra Costa Times


Burrell, Jackie. (2012, October 1). Passion for pesto; Italians have it, and justifiably so. San Jose Mercury News

--CadetM 6 (talk) 15:24, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

New stuff goes at the bottom. It's considered improper and informal to use the person's first name when citing their work like. "In Nancy Jenkins's ""From Italy, the truth about pasta," Jenkins writes..." would be more appropriate. Ian.thomson (talk) 15:29, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

GA Reassessment

This discussion is transcluded from Talk:Italian cuisine/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the reassessment.

This article was promoted to GA status way back in 2007 and doesn't seem to have been seriously looked at since. Several sections of the article are inadequautly referenced, and it has now been tagged as such since March '14. The lack of citation is pervasive across the whole article and is not easily fixable.

Examples of this lack of citation are:

  • The first paragaph of the 'Middle Ages' subsection;
  • Paragraphs 2 and 3 of the 'Early modern era' subsection;
  • Paragraphs 3, 4 and 7 of the 'Modern era' subsection;
  • The latter part of paragraph 2 and all of paragraphs 3-9 of the 'Ingredients' section;
  • Paragraph 1 of the 'Regional variation' section; all of subection 'Friuli-Venezia Giulia'; paragraphs 2 and 3 in subsection 'Lombardy'; all of subsection 'Emilia-Romagna'; All of subsection 'Tuscany'; all of subsection 'Abruzzo and Molise'; the majority of subsections 'Campania', 'Puglia', 'Basilicata', 'Tentino-Alto Adige', 'Veneto' and 'Calabria';
  • All of section 'Meal structure';
  • Paragrpahs 1, 4 and 5 of subsection 'Coffee';
  • Paragraph 4 of subection 'Wine'; all of subsections 'Beer' and 'Other';
  • All of section 'Holiday cuisine';
  • All of section 'Meal Composition' and 'Italian cuisine abroad'.

Sotakeit (talk) 09:57, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

Cleanup Layout - use of {{clear}}

Prefix: PLEASE do not undo that change, talk first. Read on...

There is a problem with this article with the large number of images stacked on the right side.

This causes problems with Firefox, like [[1]]

It happens when you have a wide browser window, so the text column is shorter than the image stack. The images then flow into the next section. It may be a wiki or Firefox bug, but it makes that area unusable.

I checked with the help desk and they suggested {{clear}}.

So I added {{clear}} to some sections to even out the overflow of images. This may cause a little whitespace at section boundaries.

I also did some micro adjustments to some images to make it flow as best I could.

If you know of a better way please discuss here or on my talk page, I have a copy of this article under my sandbox for testing.˥ Ǝ Ʉ H Ɔ I Ɯ (talk) 07:44, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Spaghetti alla carrettiera

I moved this paragraph to discussion since it is debatable (to say the least):

In Tuscany and Umbria pasta is usually served alla carrettiera (a tomato sauce spiked with peperoncini hot peppers).[1]

  1. ^ Bramblett, Reid (2004). Frommer's Florence, Tuscany & Umbria. Wiley Publishing Inc. ISBN 0-7645-4219-2.

Spaghetti alla carrettiera is not a Central Italian style of pasta: it is from Sicily and, to some extent, Rome. In Tuscany pasta is typically served with meat sauce (penne strascicate, pappardelle sulla lepre, pasta al sugo di carne and so on) (same issue here).--Carnby (talk) 19:01, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

omg, what kind of dish is that?, sounds very funny to me!.--Bolzanobozen (talk) 15:46, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

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Everything is correct?

There can’t possibly be any errors in this article… BiliousBob (talk) 15:12, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

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