Talk:Jüri Ratas

Place of birth

Ratas was born on 2 July 1978. At that time the correct name for the country was Estonian SSR, which was part of the Soviet Union. This is just a simple fact. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:23, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

Copied over from User talk:Martinevans123:

Hi, per Template:Infobox person Place of birth: city, administrative region, sovereign state. Soviet union never had sovereignty over Baltic states. See Occupation of the Baltic states. People born in France 1940–1944 are not listed as born in German Reich – Christian Boltanski, Catherine Deneuve, Édith Lejet, Claudine Auger... All Estonian BLP use just Estonia as birth place. --Klõps (talk) 23:26, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

Is that agreed policy across all Estonian BLP articles? It's as if Estonian Soviet Socialist Republic never existed? I see that Arvo Pärt (born 11 September 1935) has just "Paide, Järva County, Estonia". So do we just need a county adding? Martinevans123 (talk) 23:31, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

Have heard this argument many times. No, it does not mean that ESSR never existed, it existed and in the same time Republic of Estonia existed as Estonian diplomatic representations continued to function from 1940 through 1991 in the west. It is de jure vs de facto. De jure it was Republic of Estonia, de facto Estonian SSR. The county part is sometimes added for small towns. (Tallinn, Tartu, Narva, Pärnu and Kohtla-Järve beeing the big ones). --Klõps (talk) 23:48, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

NB Diplomatic missions can only exist if the country they reside in recognises them. Ernst Jaakson was for years the longest-serving foreign diplomatic representative in the US. --Klõps (talk) 23:53, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

I see. Yes, that all sounds very fair. But I'm asking - is this agreed WP policy for all Estonian BLPs? And if so where is this written down? Are you saying that this article should match that of Arvo Pärt? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:59, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

The actual advice, at Template:Infobox person, for example, is this: "For modern subjects, the country should generally be a sovereign state..." So not a hard and fast rule, but no explanation of what the acceptable exceptions might be. Is this rule something that has been agreed at Wikipedia:WikiProject Estonia? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:52, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

Did you want to reply? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:15, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

Sorry for late answer. It's kind of confusing what are you asking? Yes Arvo Pärt and Jüri Ratas are both born in Estonia and should follow the same style. For Estonian counties read Counties of Estonia, usually adding the county isn't so important. If You are asking about using Estonian SSR etc as a birth place then it has been discussed many, many, many times [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6] etc. Could probably find more of these, but it's all repeating same arguments. It's the view of the majority of people editing Estonia related topics to use just Estonia, as article Estonia covers all the history of Estonia. The guides in Infobox person are vague as they are universal and open for interpretation, but in this case, the de jure vs de facto conflict should be enough, I think, to justify using Estonia. --Klõps (talk) 19:40, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

My questions are very simple:

1. Should place of birth in the infobox here link to Estonian SSR (for historical accuracy)?

2. If not, is this because it's been agreed and written down somewhere at Wikipedia, e.g. at Wikipedia:WikiProject Estonia? (a single centralised outcome, to the "many, many, many discussions" would save a lot of time and trouble?)

Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:45, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

1. No, it should not. As said before – what is historically accurate in this case – is it how things were de facto or de jure? State continuity of the Baltic states: the resistance by the Baltic people to the Soviet regime (Guerrilla war in the Baltic states), and the uninterrupted functioning of state organs in exile (Baltic Legations (1940–1991)) support the legal position that sovereign title never passed to the Soviet Union, which implied that occupation lasted until re-independence in 1991 and thus the Baltic states continued to exist as subjects of international law (Welles Declaration). So both are right and wrong in the same time. Linking to Estonia is better, it covers all the history and this is how Estonia was called what ever the political entity was. Just Estonia is less controversial.

2. Sadly there isn't guide for Baltic states related articles Template:Manual of Style. I can see that there has been an attempt to create one in 2011, but it has descended into chaos of endless discussions. Looking at these discussions there has never been an administrator closure and a result. Estonian (and Baltic) community in Wikipedia is rather small and the question is quite marginal. --Klõps (talk) 22:23, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for the further explanation. Yes, that's a shame. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:08, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

Executive zombie, thank you for the explanation here. If the place of his birth is so controversial, I am somewhat surprised that some explanation is not given, perhaps as a footnote, in the "Personal life" section, where his place of birth is mentioned and sourced. I see that the source says simply: "was born in Tallinn in 1978". Klõps might also have a view on this. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:15, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Personal life

Wouldn't it be better to write his early life at the beginning of the article than at the end? Kapeter77 (talk)

Articles vary. But tend to agree. No objections. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:50, 3 December 2019 (UTC)

Bias in the article

This article heavily focuses on the negatives of Jüri Ratas. Why are sentences like "In January 2020, his coalition was supported by a quarter of the electorate" included in the main description? At the moment the coalition has a total support of 44% and the opposition 41.8% according to Norstat. The article should be more balanced and not mainly surround controversies with EKRE. Over half of the article is about EKRE, not Jüri Ratas.

The main body of the article should be changed and actually speak of Jüri Ratas, not the controversies with EKRE. Jaak Kivi (talk) 14:21, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

Correct critics

Totally agree. For example, the main education including the instructor and all the postgraduate education is missing, not to mention earlier life. Foreign relations don't reflect the reality – for example close ties to the British or Irish Embassy in Tallinn. Etc.2001:7D0:897A:9A80:899:D6CD:9384:B419 (talk) 20:05, 16 October 2020 (UTC)