Talk:Java (programming language)/Archive 7

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Requested move 16 May 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. Pretty much a snowball close for the first option, more opposes than supports for second option and historic oposition to moving on the page concerened points to a consensus against moving. Salix alba (talk): 18:41, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

– Per WP:PTOPIC. xtools says that Java had 94,580 views in the last 60 days, with Java (programming language) having over roughly eleven times as much views (1,041,585). Rusty4321 talk contributions log 23:29, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

  • Oppose 1st, Support 2nd — and move the disambiguation page (Java (disambiguation)) to the basename. Primary topic swaps are often messy, especially at this magnitude. However, I generally believe there's no primary topic between • the programming language, • the island, and possibly • the coffee — and the safest bet might be to have the disambiguation page at the basename. Paintspot Infez (talk) 01:05, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
  • Strong oppose Java programming language move. That owuld only be a PTOPIC to a computer programmer. To a web user, it could mean JavaScript (ECMAscript) instead of JAVA. Even then it would not be the primary topic. Instead it would be either the island, or a generic term for coffee (which the programming language even acknowledges with its cup-of-coffee logo). Instead the disambiguation page should be at the primary location. -- 65.92.247.17 (talk) 02:39, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
    • If the dab page is made primary, the island, programming language and coffee should be moved to the top as "may generally refer to" as a top section. -- 65.92.247.17 (talk) 02:41, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose 1st, Support 2nd, move DAB to base name. No PRIMARY.--Ortizesp (talk) 03:22, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose 1st, support 2nd, move Java (disambiguation) → Java. The programming language dominates search results and page views, and has slightly more incoming links. It seems to be the primary topic by usage around the English-speaking world. However, the island remains primary by long-term significance. Where the two criteria disagree, putting the dab at the base name serves our readers best. Even if justified, a new primary topic would break a lot of incoming external links. Certes (talk) 08:51, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
Note: WikiProjects Disambiguation, Indonesia and Software have been notified of this discussion. Certes (talk) 09:04, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
  • Comment - an island of 130 million people (in itself larger than all but just a handful of whole countries) and 1000s of year history may not be the primary topic? I get that we wikipedians are a bunch of early 21st century computer geeks, but a programming language is rather insignificant and transient in relation to the island of Java. --Merbabu (talk) 09:12, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
  • Strong Oppose - this is very similar to the attempted argument that Tasmania is not in Australia - it fails to understand the larger picture and context. Java as the location is the primary/first level in historical and other senses, while the programming item might be something in the visual capacity of a particular audience, however this is an online encyclopedia. If it ends up with culturally narrow terms trumping the original name, by the reasoning given so far, then by precedence, a large number of current primary topics might be expected to be usurped by tangential, ephemeral subjects and topics. JarrahTree 09:49, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
  • Comment - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Java a careful read of the talk page shows this is a cyclical exercise - there have been previous discussions... JarrahTree 09:54, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
  • Strong Oppose - this has been discussed before. The island is of far greater significance and is more widely known than a computer language. Davidelit (Talk) 10:54, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose - Java programming language was named after Java Coffee which came from the Island Java is home to 147 odd million people. Java the programming language is being dropped from many platforms its not going to sustain the longevity of an Island with over 1000 years of history. Java programing language also contains a hat note to Javanese language the language spoken in Java and for which we have a separate Wikipedia as well. This change has been suggested to death please Wikipedia:Drop the stick and back slowly away from the horse carcass.
  • Because many of the previous discussion took place at Talk:Java doesnt change anything. Gnangarra 11:02, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose - this is the... 6th? of these RMs. I will simply quote my favorites from the previous ones:
If anything, admins should ban further RMs of this specific set until either everyone is a Java programmer or the island sinks into the bottom of the ocean. Hard to tell which one will happen first. Juxlos (talk) 11:22, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose 1st, support 2nd, there is no clear primary topic, the island is primary by long-term significance but not usage, the DAB is the best compromise. Crouch, Swale (talk) 12:24, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose both. Because we are on the web, articles on topics related to computers often get a number of views that might otherwise seem inordinate. (In fact, arguably, this request itself is likely to receive more support on this talk page than it would have if the discussion were taking place on the island's article.) However, the island remains the primary topic. Dekimasuよ! 13:56, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
  • Strong oppose. The island with its huge population and long history is clearly the primary topic by far. Dan Carkner (talk) 16:04, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose both in spite of the page view ratio. Long-term significance should have preference here; also, for non-geeks, any move would go against WP:ASTONISH. –Austronesier (talk) 19:06, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
    • Add Just curious about the page views, does anyone know what is going on here? –Austronesier (talk) 19:12, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
      Views for C (programming language) track those for Java (pl) very closely. Perhaps they jump when university courses start and stop or switch between home and on-site working due to Covid. I can imagine 100 students each loading the page at home vs. one corporate server caching it for everyone in term time. Certes (talk) 22:05, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose 1st, support 2nd -- The programming language probably fails long-term significance (depending on how long you measure 'long-term' in the future direction.), but there's no clear primary topic here. Dab page seems best. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 23:08, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
  • Question: To those proposing the island is not the primary topic, if hypothetically, the programming language was not called "Java", but "California", what would you suggest is the primary topic? The US State or the computer language? Noting that if it was a country, Java island would be the 8th largest in the world by population (larger than Russia, Mexico, Japan, Germany). It is also the central powerhouse of Indonesia, the fourth largest country in the world. California by comparison would be the 38th largest country. --Merbabu (talk) 23:44, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
    It's an interesting point to which I can't conjure a convincing answer, so I think I'll strike my above comment. The annual pageviews for California are higher than Java (programming language), but even if they weren't I'd still say California. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 00:54, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
    Thanks for giving consideration and even changing your position. I’m sure we wouldn’t be having this discussion if the name was “California” rather than “Java”. Or “Japan” or even “Dublin”. —Merbabu (talk) 04:04, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
    For better or worse, California takes up a much more prominent place in the global imagination than does Java. Despite its much smaller population, its article gets read by five times as many readers [1] [2]. – Uanfala (talk) 09:52, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
    It helps that California is in the Anglosphere and Java isn't. Juxlos (talk) 15:56, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
    California is not a perfect analogy, but it still works. Alternatively, and in the same vein, I doubt very much we'd be having this debate if the word was "Tokyo", "Dublin", "Fiji", "Tahiti", "Majorca" or "Greenland". --Merbabu (talk) 22:51, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
    California is a region (ie. Baja, Alta, Norte, Sur, Norcal, Socal; and Gulf) and a few states. If it were a common name generic name for coffee, it would be a disambiguation page. Just like Victoria is a state and a name, so is a disambiguation page. -- 65.92.247.17 (talk) 03:08, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
    Victoria the places are all named after Queen Victoria of the United Kingdom. Java has had the name for what, 2500 years? Juxlos (talk) 01:47, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose both - for the various reasons I (and others) suggest above including systematic bias, and long term relevance. --Merbabu (talk) 23:44, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose both. per above. 1 million pageviews is becoming irrelevant when we talk about 147 million people, the most populous island in the entire world (more than Russia). We don't move C (programming language) to C, just because it has significantly more views. Bluesatellite (talk) 03:00, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose both. The island is still the primary topic. The programming language was named after the coffee, which in turn was named after the island. JIP | Talk 11:47, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose both. Nobody dispute long-term significance of the island. On the other hand, as Dekimasu mentioned computer-related topics tend to have higher page view ratio hence it's clear example of systematic bias. Therefore long-term significance should be preferred on this case. Ckfasdf (talk) 14:47, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose both per long term significance. BilledMammal (talk) 05:04, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
  • Support 2nd WP:PRIMARYTOPIC lists two criteria. The programming language clearly wins the first. The island arguably wins the second. My read is there is no primary topic at this time and Java should be a disambiguation page. ~Kvng (talk) 13:58, 20 May 2022 (UTC) WP:STICK arguments above are compelling. ~Kvng (talk) 14:02, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose both WP:SNOW Java is Java, what else would it be. Are we going to rename apple as apple (fruit)? In ictu oculi (talk) 19:46, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose both The term comes from the island name, everything else (slang/type of coffee, programming languages) is derivative. Java without qualifiers should be the island, everything else should be in the Java (specifier) format, which is the current state of things. Fbergo (talk) 15:03, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose both, an island with over a 100 million residents and a long history is the primary topic with lasting relevance. Modern things named after the island or after the coffee named for the island are not close to being as significant, no matter the page views. There is also a systemic bias in that computer search queries are often biased towards computer terms. Pikavoom Talk 06:26, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Historical problems with security in Java

The history of the security in the Java platform is very interesting, with Oracle at some time being forced with a court order to display a warning about uninstalling older version on java.com. Somehow this was not deemed important to mention here, despite the fact that the particular warning was placed prominently in the lead. I moved the statement on the insecurity of older sections to the "History" section and taged the section with POV. Nxavar (talk) 12:45, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Team-B-Vital Improvement Drive

Hello all!

This article has been chosen as this fortnight's effort for WP:Discord's #team-b-vital channel, a collaborative effort to bring Vital articles up to a B class if possible, similar to WP:Articles for Improvement. This effort will run for up to a fortnight, ending early if the article is felt to be at B-class or impossible to further improve. Articles are chosen by a quick vote among interested chatters, with the goal of working together on interesting Vital articles that need improving.

Thank you! Remagoxer (talk) 00:10, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

NPOV?

While reading the History section, this specific line caught my eye.

Oracle has described itself as the steward of Java technology with a relentless commitment to fostering a community of participation and transparency. This did not prevent Oracle from filing a lawsuit against Google shortly after that for using Java inside the Android SDK (see the Android section).

To me, this feels like it breaks WP:NPOV. It could be reworded to be more neutral, because it currently reads like a direct attack on Oracle and their behavior towards the community. Saghetti (talk) 11:41, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

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