Talk:Jean Valjean

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Missing sources[edit]

The last part of the article gives its sources and the character biography's source is, of course, the novel. What other sources have to be given? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.216.159.136 (talk) 19:16, 25 February 2009‎ (UTC)[reply]

I don't think anything more is needed. I would take off that tag. GrandMattster 21:08, 4 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Adaptations[edit]

I removed Stig Rossen and Alex Gemigniani from the list. First, this was supposed to be about movie adaptations (Colm Wilkinson is ok because of the Dream Cast in Concert-movie) and second, none of these two were ever officially recorded.

I also took Michael Westfall out until this is provable information. Imdb has been listing a 2010-adaptation for Les misérables for some time now, but I still can't find any proof for this. So, whoever put him in there, please provide a reference.

I'm not sure, is a list of singers who sang Valjean a good idea? Or is this getting to lengthy and to detailed? Jonathan Gr (talk) 13:28, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Uncle Tom[edit]

Could whoever added the bit about Uncle Tom being a possible inspiration for Valjean please give a source? I don't know when the book was translated to France, but even at the time of its original publishing date (1852), large parts of Les Misérables had already been written and the character of Valjean had surely already been planned entirely. 84.167.12.221 (talk) 20:16, 14 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Prisoner Number?[edit]

Why is there no mention of the famous 24601 Prisoner Number? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.0.201.161 (talk) 13:56, 27 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I would add this bit as well. I came to the page looking for the number, had to find it in the discussion page... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.191.232.71 (talk) 10:13, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Probably due to its insignificance to the story. The number is only mentioned twice in the entire book, once mentioned where his back story is given, and an offhand reference much later in the story. Neither plays any substantial part of the narrative. ( Mediatech492 (talk) 12:55, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Convict[edit]

His occupation list referred o him as an "Ex-Convict", this is incorrect. Under French law at the time a person convicted of a crime was a convict for life, even after he had served his prison sentence. This is why Valjean had to carry the yellow paper and identify himself to police wherever he went. I'm not sure if "convict" can be considered a profession in any case, but I have left it as such for now. Mediatech492 (talk) 20:31, 6 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Portrayed by: No French actors?[edit]

Hi, many more actors than listed here have portrayed Valjean - the French article has a more extensive list; and I think it's weird - or at least parochial (perhaps even petty) - to exclude e.g. Depardieu, Belmondo and above all Jean Gabin from this list. T 85.166.162.64 (talk) 03:01, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This is the wrong article for such a list. See: Film and Adaptations of Les Misérables#Television. Even my userpage at User:Valjean has a longer list than this article, which has none and only mentions one actor under a picture. -- Valjean (talk) 00:28, 18 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Catholicism[edit]

For some reason, someone has reverted the change of "Roman Catholic" to "Catholic Church" in listing the religious affiliation of the character. Considering that the book was written in French, where Roman Catholic is a generally disused term. There is absolutely no likelihood anyone is going to assume that Valjean was actually a staunch Tractarian, so "Catholic Church"–the presently preferred name on Wikipedia–makes more sense. Additionally, the statement of his religious affiliation is presently unsourced. ~ Pbritti (talk) 23:30, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As previously stated, the term "Catholic Church" refers to several different denominations. The term "Roman Catholic" only refers to the Latin church of Rome, which is the one that about 99% of the population of France adhered to in the age in question. He was brought to faith by Bishop Myriel who was a Roman Catholic priest, and it is stated in the book that Valjean attended Low Mass regularly. (Book V, Chapter II). Mediatech492 (talk) 21:00, 20 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. Roman Catholic is proper. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 22:31, 20 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Mediatech492, Roman Catholic does not exclusively refer to the Latin Church—something that has been discussed at length across the project. Also, the term is a bit of an English imposition on the source material. The insistence on using Roman Catholic here does not make sense. ~ Pbritti (talk) 15:44, 21 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Pbritti, I'm not sure what you mean by "Roman Catholic does not exclusively refer to the Latin Church". To what other church does it usually refer? When a general umbrella term (like Catholic Church) is too non-specific, we prefer precision, and Roman Catholic serves the purpose fine.
Jean Valjean was not a member of the Greek Orthodox or Russian Orthodox Catholic churches. He was a member of the Roman Catholic church, the state church of France. You're essentially labeling a dog a mammal. Yes, that's true, but it doesn't really tell us much. It's much better to label the dog a canine.
BTW, I just discovered the rather disturbing redirect of Roman Catholic to Catholic Church. That's really fucked up. Who the hell is responsible for that? Are you one who pushes that idea? I'll have to dig into this. Catholic Church is the overarching name, with 24 subdivisions (Sui iuris), each worthy of its own article. Catholic Church should be the main, mother, article. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 21:50, 21 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I also must ask, why do you think this distinction is so important in the case of this one fictional character? There are many other articles using "Roman Catholic" which affect real people and actual events that you don't seem to be interested in challenging. What makes this case different? Mediatech492 (talk) 23:35, 21 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Pbritti, I share Mediatech492's concern. Why do you want to make this change? Roman Catholic is not inaccurate and is arguably more precise than Catholic Church, which is a general, generic, term for all Catholics that is rather uninformative. Are you refusing to recognize that Jean Valjean, as a typical Frenchman of the time, was a member of the Roman Catholic Church under the Pope of Rome? -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 16:12, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

From the lead of Roman Catholic (term): The term Roman Catholic is used to differentiate the Catholic Church and its members in full communion with the pope in Rome from other Christians who identify as "Catholic".[1] It is also sometimes used to differentiate adherents to the Latin Church and its use of the Roman Rite from Catholics of the Eastern Catholic Churches. It is not the official name preferred by the Holy See or bishops in full communion with the pope as a designation for their faith or institution.[2][3]

Wikipedia doesn't take sides in the battle between the different branches of the Catholic Church. We shouldn't take the side of the Pope in Rome, who wants a patent on the term "Catholic Church". -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 22:17, 21 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia doesn't take sides in the battle between the different branches of the Catholic Church. What are you talking about? Are you confused as to what the Latin Church is? Because it seems like you don't quite get that the pope isn't taking sides against the Eastern Catholic Churches–which are part of the Catholic Church (heck, they help chose who the next pope is!). If you're saying that We shouldn't take sides and use the term Catholic because the Pope wants a patent on the term "Catholic Church", you might want to see what article Roman Catholic redirects to. Neither of you are subject-matter experts on ecclesiastical nomenclature but seem insistent on supporting "Roman Catholic" without any source that uses it. Maybe you just want this article just the way you like it, but that's not a good reason. ~ Pbritti (talk) 04:03, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Huh? That's a bit confusing as you don't seem to have read what I wrote. Of course "the Eastern Catholic Churches–which are part of the Catholic Church". So is the "Roman Catholic Church". Historically, there have been divisions in the Catholic Church, with the Pope in Rome (leader of the Latin/Roman Catholic Church) asserting supreme leadership over everything "Catholic", whether the parts want it or not. That's why the distinction between "Roman Catholic Church" and "Catholic Church" should be preserved.
Catholic Church should be the mother article covering the 24 subdivisions of the Catholic Church (Sui iuris), each worthy of its own article. Roman Catholic Church, Russian Orthodox Church, Greek Orthodox Church, etc. should be briefly mentioned in that mother article. It should also be mentioned that the Pope of Rome asserts authority over all the subdivisions.
Currently, after the mediation decision, Wikipedia has taken sides with the Pope of Rome and the Roman/Latin Catholic church in the centuries-old battle between the different branches of the Catholic Church. We shouldn't take the side of the Pope in Rome, who wants own a patent on the term "Catholic Church", yet that is what's happened. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 16:12, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Valjean: Are you under the impression that the Greek Orthodox Church and the Russian Orthodox Church are Eastern Catholic Churches? because you are extremely confused. The Eastern Catholic Churches aren't the Eastern Orthodox Church. It seems your objection is premised on a woeful lack of knowledge on the subject followed by a poorly formed understanding formed by a skim of the Wikipedia article leads. ~ Pbritti (talk) 20:21, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is a rabbit trail argument. What is or isn't part of the Catholic Communion is of no relevance to this article. All the information we have about Jean Valjean is contained in "Les Miserables", and that alone should be the basis for any discussion about this character. Mediatech492 (talk) 02:05, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well, it's pertinent: the editors who are in favor of one option don't appear to really know why they support something and have made statements that demonstrate that. If the article on the Catholic Church uses "Catholic Church" as its name and the article on the Latin Church uses "Latin Church" as its name, why are you insisting on a not using "Catholic Church"? It's not as descriptive as you originally thought. ~ Pbritti (talk) 03:25, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What passage from the book makes it pertinent? Mediatech492 (talk) 22:27, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ * "Catholic". Collins Dictionary. Retrieved October 30, 2023.
    * "Roman Catholic". Colins Dictionary. Retrieved October 30, 2023.
    * "Roman Catholic". Oxford English Dictionary. Retrieved October 30, 2023.
    * "Definition of CATHOLIC". www.merriam-webster.com. Retrieved 2023-10-30.
    * "Definition of ROMAN CATHOLIC". www.merriam-webster.com. 2023-10-20. Retrieved 2023-10-30.
  2. ^ Cite error: The named reference McClintoc71 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  3. ^ D., Whitehead, K. (2000). One, holy, Catholic, and apostolic: the early church was the Catholic Church. San Francisco: Ignatius Press. ISBN 0898708028. OCLC 45473599.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
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