Talk:Christ myth theory

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Former good articleChrist myth theory was one of the Philosophy and religion good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
August 6, 2006Articles for deletionKept
February 19, 2010Good article nomineeListed
February 21, 2010Featured article candidateNot promoted
April 3, 2010Peer reviewReviewed
April 12, 2010Featured article candidateNot promoted
May 10, 2010Good article reassessmentDelisted
June 20, 2010Good article nomineeNot listed
Current status: Delisted good article

"virtually all" in LEDE[edit]

Do we have WP:RS that make this statement, or are editors counting a number of sources and then WP:SYNTH and WP:OR to make this statement in the WP:LEDE? I did see the WP:CITEBUNDLE and wondering if there is anything in the citebundle that actually contains an analysis to support this statement? Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 06:14, 22 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes the quotes are there in the "cite bundle" and other cites there. This has been addressed multiple times. For example, Gullotta, Grant, Ehrman, and mythcists like Lataster and Price verify this. Ramos1990 (talk) 07:06, 22 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know of any credible scholar of the ancient world, 1st Century, New Testament and related fields who wastes time "debating" the fringe little side-issue of whether or not Jesus existed. The overwhelming consensus is that he did exist, and the more correct wording would be to write "virtually none" dispute this. I think we need to have a little talk about what "virtually all" really means, because I can compile a list of scholars who've disputed this consensus, and "virtually none" of them are credible experts who publish professional research in this field. You can count on one hand the number of mythicist "scholars" who even have academic training in a relevant subject. The go-to man for mythicists seems to be an unemployed blogger named Richard Carrier, whose one and only peer-reviewed publication "On the Historicity of Jesus" (well, sort of "peer reviewed") went unnoticed and generated one lonely review from one of his minions. That tells you all you need to know about the scholarly validity of mythicism. Jonathan f1 (talk) 22:27, 31 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Living Proponents And Aron Ra[edit]

Hello. I was encouraged to take my issue here to discuss it. I don’t think Aron Ra should be listed as a Living Proponent of the theory. All the other modern proponents listed are scholars (mostly historians) with advanced degrees who have published books, articles, and other research on the subject matter. Aron Ra is a YouTuber of middling size.

I initially replaced him with Thomas Brodie, a living scholar and (relatively) famous proponent of the Christ Myth Theory but this was reverted. I’d like to officially put forward the idea that this section should be reserved for those who have published research in support of the theory, and not lay persons who happen to agree with the theory or find it convincing.

We can fill the table entirely with tons of YouTube atheists who find the theory convincing. But I don’t think that’s helpful. Nor do I think it makes much sense to include just one random YouTuber among a list of primarily scholars. Jaredcruz899 (talk) 05:42, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In particular, I’d probably recommend replacing him with Earl Doherty. Someone who may only have an undergraduate degree (at least in a related field, unlike Aron Ra) but who has at least published notable work advocating for the theory, with his work being responded to by scholars like Bart Ehrman in his, Did Jesus Exist. Jaredcruz899 (talk) 05:51, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It should also be noted that the original person who added Aron Ra said to “look at his wiki page” for the fact that he’s a “proponent of the Christ Myth Theory” but that appears no where on his own wiki page, and seems to have been removed from it months ago. Jaredcruz899 (talk) 13:50, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Lede is too long[edit]

@Joshua Jonathan: WP:Lede "As a general rule of thumb, a lead section should contain no more than four well-composed paragraphs and be carefully sourced as appropriate, although it is common for citations to appear in the body and not the lead."

Lede is currently 6 paragraphs.

"the lead section is an introduction ... and a summary of its most important contents."

Lede contains: "... in terms given by Bart Ehrman paraphrasing Earl Doherty"; Isn't this detail that should be further down in the article?

The lead section should be "well-composed".
It currently introduces the concept in the first paragraph,
then debunks it ("In contrast, the mainstream scholarly consensus holds that there was a historical Jesus ... denial was never persuasive in or out of academic circles") in the 2nd paragraph,
then gives some history ("Mythicism can be traced back to the Age of Enlightenment, ...") in the 3rd,
then gives its arguments ("Proponents broadly argue ...)
then gives a different summary of arguments ("Most mythicists employ a threefold argument ... ) in the 4th paragraph
then in the 5th paragraph goes back to debunking ("Mythicism is rejected as a fringe theory ...")
and finally in the 6th goes back to history ("With the rise of the internet ...")

This is good organization?

I attempted to to trim and reorganzie the lede and was reverted by Joshua Jonathan, who told me "Please discuss at talk". -- Louis P. Boog (talk) 21:42, 28 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Louis P. Boog: thank you for opening a talkpage-thread. Regarding your edits diff:
  • "as a rule of thumb" - but not always;
  • The lead does summarize the most important points;
  • We give two, slightly different definitions, because there is not a single, tightly-knit definition; the second definition is a definition give by one of the most prominent proponents, as cited by one of the best-known Biblical scholars;
  • I agree with you that the scholarly rejection of the CMT should be at the end of the lead - as it is. The second paragraph introduces the conclusion of the socalled quests for the historical Jesus, plus the remark "in contrast." But the clear rejection comes at the end. The sentence " however even before this, denial was never persuasive in or out of academic circles" was overdone, I think; I've just removed it;
  • Paragraph 4 and 5 may be repetitive indeed; good point;
  • I've added "While rejected by mainstream scholarship" to the last paragraph, as "popular reception" is a separate topic in the body.
Regards, Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 05:16, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Removed image[edit]

I have removed the image of the resurrection of Jesus. Inclusion of such an image unnecessarily and incorrectly implies a mainstream secular consensus that Jesus was resurrected. If an image is required, use one that more accurately reflects the difference between the mythicist view and the secular view. For example, an image depicting Jesus' baptism, ministry or execution, without religious iconography or supernatural imagery, would be more appropriate.--Jeffro77 Talk 08:01, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

implies a mainstream secular consensus that Jesus was resurrected - serious? Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 10:02, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What would be the problem with using a picture that is more in line with the mainstream consensus? It is indeed misleading to use a picture that is not consistent with the secular consensus and instead implying that denying the resurrection is ‘just some mythical view’.—Jeffro77 Talk 10:20, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have troubles following your arguments. Your invocation of "secular consensus" is unclear to me; why should a picture have to reflect a "secular consensus," and what is this "secular consensus" anyway? I think that most people don't care if th resurrection 'really' happened. I also don't see an "[implication] that denying the resurrection is ‘just some mythical view’." Weé talking here about the question of there was a historical Jesus, which is denied by mythicists. Resurrection, and all the other supernatural elements, are not part of discussion on 'real or not'. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 10:28, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You have demonstrated quite well why a picture depicting the resurrection is not necessary. The resurrection isn’t representative of the subject of the article. Presenting the resurrection at the top of the article as something ‘denied by mythicists’ is not an honest or neutral representation of mainstream views about the resurrection. It strains credulity that you don’t understand what the mainstream consensus is about the historicity of Jesus. We both know you’re well aware that the only points of widespread consensus are that Jesus was baptised and executed. So why exactly is it so important to depict the resurrection?—Jeffro77 Talk 11:49, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is easily resolved. Here are some appropriate neutral images. Which one should we use?

Wdford (talk) 21:14, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Of those, the 1, 2, 3 or 5 would be good options for depicting the historical Jesus without unnecessary supernatural elements (don’t need to dwell too much on the interpretation of the dove or God’s approval though they can’t be established as historical).—Jeffro77 Talk 22:43, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
According to the CMT, all of the story of Jesus is mythological, so I don't see the logic of using a picture of one of the two elements of the life Jesus deemed most likely by mainstream scholarship to be historical, to illustrate the CMT.
The present picture does not "[imply] that denying the resurrection is ‘just some mythical view’"; that's your personal interpretation. The caption of the present picture is quite clear:

The Resurrection of Christ by Carl Heinrich Bloch (1875)—some mythicists see this as a case of a dying-and-rising deity.

Mainstream scholarship rejects this comparison with contemporary mythology; 'mainstream secular consensus' seems to refer to the vox populi, which is not what the CMT is contrasted with. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 04:01, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That is a good point Joshua Johnathan. Dying-and-rising deity parallel is a common point in CMT as to what Jesus really was. He existed in a mythical realm only, never on earth. CMT is not just denial, but an alternate theory too. Ramos1990 (talk) 04:56, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is not even a slightly good point. The view that Jesus was not resurrected is a mainstream view—the view, in fact, of all non-Christians. The subset of that view that the resurrection is a standard 'risen deity' motif is also a mainstream view, being the view of all non-Christians sufficiently familiar with the concept, including those who otherwise accept the historicity of Jesus without supernatural elements. (The question of whether Christians borrowed that concept from earlier ancient stories is an irrelevant distraction.) It is quite misleading to weaselly attribute something as the view of "some mythicists" that also overlaps the view of others who aren't mythicists. The image for the article should be specific to the Jesus myth theory, and should not falsely convey that it is a 'fringe view' that Jesus was not resurrected. It will save everyone a lot of time if Joshua Jonathan stops pretending not to understand this.--Jeffro77 Talk 07:57, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A more neutral image and caption would be of something that is widely regarded as historical but uniquely denied by mythicists—for example Jesus' baptism. A suitable caption could say something like Jesus myth theory proponents reject the mainstream consensus that Jesus was a historical person who was baptised and later executed.--Jeffro77 Talk 08:11, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Jeffro77, you're pushing your personal opinions. Please stick to the scope of this article: the fringe CMT, and scholarly views on the historicity of Jesus and the CMT, not your assumptions about 'mainstream views of all non-Christians'. And no, "The question of whether Christians borrowed that concept from earlier ancient stories" is notan irrelevant distraction; it's a central element of the argumentation of the CMT-adepts, famously defended by the Religionsgeschichtliche Schule'. And no one here but you is arguing that "it is a 'fringe view' that Jesus was not resurrected." Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 08:49, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Stop pretending I have suggested something unreasonable. The view that Jesus' resurrection is a myth is not unique to mythicists. I have suggested a completely reasonable alternative that clearly represents the unique position of mythicists as contrasted with the mainstream position that avoids all of this nonsense:
A more neutral image and caption would be of something that is widely regarded as historical but uniquely denied by mythicists—for example Jesus' baptism. A suitable caption could say something like Jesus myth theory proponents reject the mainstream consensus that Jesus was a historical person who was baptised and later executed.
It is not clear why you would object to a picture and caption that unambiguously points to the contrast between the mythicist and mainstream positions without misrepresenting either position.--Jeffro77 Talk 08:56, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's indeed clear that it's not clear to you... "Stop pretending I have suggested something unreasonable" is not a sign that you understand my objections; it looks more like you want a discussion only on your terms, that is, a non-discussion. And "Jesus myth theory proponents reject the mainstream consensus that Jesus was a historical person who was baptised and later executed" is non-informative, a mere duplicate of what's already stated over and over again. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 09:22, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The infobox in the lead should provide information that represents a general overview of the article subject. It isn’t supposed to introduce nuanced specifics, and certainly not in a manner that misrepresents the subject by conflating the views of “some mythicists” with that of other non-mythicists.—Jeffro77 Talk 09:32, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I tweaked the contentious caption slightly to resolve the problem. Wdford (talk) 10:09, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I appreciate the attempt, but such specific detail is still not what images in the infobox in the lead are for. It should be something more generally representative of the article subject. The resurrection simply isn’t representative of the subject as it is not something uniquely denied by mythicists.—Jeffro77 Talk 10:32, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I fully agree with you about the non-uniqueness. However the dying and rising deity myth is actually a good example of what CMT is about for some mythicists. So with this wording (which could use a bit more polish), this image could work here. Wdford (talk) 10:48, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No. Something that is true for only “some mythicists” is definitionally not representative of the general subject.—Jeffro77 Talk 12:29, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps we should also link this article to the article Monty Python's Life of Brian? The film is a good example of what other mythicists contend may have happened. Wdford (talk) 10:48, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
LOL! Brilliant! Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 11:17, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A big part of the problem with an article about the CMT is that different mythicists have different views on what the CMT actually is. Some contend that the entire Christian religion is based completely on a pure myth, originally cooked up deliberately to compete with the similar myths being sold (successfully) by "rival" religions. Others contend that the Christian religion is based on one of the many historical Jewish "messiah-men", onto whose real life and death were slathered many layers of mythical material, so as to deliberately compete with the similar myths being sold (successfully) by "rival" religions. This second position is also held by many mainstream scholars, although some other mainstream scholars with a Christian bent pretend that only the first CMT position exists, which they loudly denounce as "fringe" and "pseudo-scholarship", and other mainstream scholars seem to think the slathering all happened by "accident" and that the resemblance to the rival religions is all just co-incidence. Try finding an image to cover all of that? PS: I was happy with the caption on the original image, and I would be happy to reinstate it, although we can certainly strengthen the caption to make it clear that only SOME mythicists hold the dying-and-rising-god position. Wdford (talk) 13:09, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

All of which is alleviated by my perfectly reasonable suggestion of contrasting an accepted mainstream view about an event such as Jesus being baptised with the consistent mythicist view that Jesus wasn’t a historical person. Simple, accurate, and properly representative of the subject, without misrepresenting other aspects that are not unique to mythicists nor the view of all mythicists.—Jeffro77 Talk 13:21, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Cool. So choose an image, add a caption, and let’s polish it up. Wdford (talk) 13:26, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Done. You can grab it from the history if it gets reverted to the image and description that aren’t properly representative of the subject.—Jeffro77 Talk 14:02, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is not necessary or accurate to add “some”. All mythicists necessarily by definition reject the position that Jesus was a specific historical person, irrespective of whether they think he was completely made up or based on a composite of various other people.—Jeffro77 Talk 20:50, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure that "definition" covers the views of Wells, Thompson or Price? Certainly all mythicists agree that the Christ of Faith in the gospel stories is not an accurate historical person, but certainly some of these proponents accept that there may well have been some facts from some historical person/s underneath all the layers of fiction? Wdford (talk) 22:35, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The wording is quite specific. Alternative beliefs about ‘some other person/s’ are necessarily not the historical Jesus. The separate concept that Jesus is historical but was not a supernatural ‘Christ of faith’ is a mainstream view and is not mythicism.—Jeffro77 Talk 23:06, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The sky is blue and the Earth is not flat[edit]

*Wikipedia:You don't need to cite that the sky is blue

*Wikipedia:You do need to cite that the sky is blue

The separate concept that Jesus is historical—but was not a supernatural ‘Christ of faith’, the Lord God of Christian devotees—is a mainstream view in scholarship and of virtually everyone who is not a Christ devotee. 2db (talk) 09:56, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You don't even have to mention that the sky is blue. The next line already says "The mainstream scholarly consensus [...] holds that there was a historical Jesus." The sentence "and of virtually everyone who is not a Christ devotee." is not a summary of the article, and completely WP:UNDUE here. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 10:33, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not WP:UNDUE here because this article is bizarrely named so as to conflate the Lord God of Christian devotees with historicity. Correctly rename this article! 2db (talk) 10:45, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ad infinitum. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 11:43, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Q5 already shows that there is no consensus on the matter. The common agreement between all is that Jesus of Nazareth existed. Evans/Wreight: "No serious historian of any religious or nonreligious stripe doubts that Jesus of Nazareth really lived in the first century and was executed under the authority of Pontius Pilate, the governor of Judea and Samaria. Though this may be common knowledge among scholars, the public may well not be aware of this." Ehrman "As I have repeatedly emphasized, different scholars come to radically different conclusions about how to understand the life of the historical Jesus...Nearly all critical scholars agree at least on those points about the historical Jesus. But there is obviously a lot more to say, and that is where scholarly disagreements loom large - disagreements not over whether Jesus existed but over what kind of Jewish teacher and preacher he was." Levine ""No single picture of Jesus has convinced all, or even most, scholars; all methods and their combinations find their critics as well as their advocates." Ramos1990 (talk) 13:58, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And this is how certain editors continue (ad infinitum) to preserve the appearance that mainstream scholarship accepts that the Divine Christ may have been a historical figure. Subtle, but also blatant. Wdford (talk) 15:41, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The suggested text was indeed unnecessary, as the lead already indicates with a more appropriate tone that only some fairly mundane aspects about Jesus are recognised in the mainstream consensus. However, it is also a fact that this article is poorly named, with a false implication that it is just the view of ‘crazy mythicists’ that Christ (with all the implied supernatural baggage) didn’t exist. This misleading position for the article title is maintained under the guise of ‘oh well, it’s just the common name’, though there is no serious reason it couldn’t be called ‘Jesus myth theory’.—Jeffro77 Talk 04:30, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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