Talk:Joe Orton

Libya

According to the Diaries they left Libya after just a day because they could not find suitable accommodation, not because their relationship was bad on the holiday.Bedwasboy (talk) 18:54, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

According to bio it was because Beatles script was rejected and Joe wanted to go home. 207.237.198.152 (talk) 04:43, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

What does this mean?

What is the opening clause of this sentence supposed to mean?

"According to Dennis Dewsnap's memoire (What's Sex Got To Do With It, The Syden Press, 2004) from mostly Tangiers, where Orton and Halliwell went on holiday, Orton and his lover/murderer had their ashes mixed and were buried together."

Was it written mostly in Tangiers? Was it published by the "mostly Tangiers Press"? Were many of the pages found somewhere in Tangiers? 68.54.160.137 (talk) 10:57, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

I think it means the source is from the part of the memoirs which takes place in Tangiers. This is where Dewsnap and Joe and Ken were together. 207.237.198.152 (talk) 04:45, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

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Diary

"Halliwell left a suicide note, informing police that all would be explained if they read Orton's diaries, "especially the latter part". The diaries have since been published." Shouldn't there be something saying that last few pages were never found? It's believed that Peggy Ramsay destroyed them. 86.29.228.182 (talk) 21:56, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

This paragraph is a mess

This paragraph:

Orton was cremated at the Golders Green Crematorium, his maroon cloth draped coffin being brought into the west chapel to a recording of The Beatles song A Day in the Life. The eulogy was read by Harold Pinter, who concluded by saying "he was a bloody marvellous writer."

According to Dennis Dewsnap's memoire (What's Sex Got To Do With It, The Syden Press, 2004) from mostly Tangiers, where Orton and Halliwell went on holiday, Orton and his lover/murderer had their ashes mixed and were buried together. Dewsnap writes about Orton's agent Peggy Ramsay: "...At the scattering of Joe's and Kenneth's ashes, his sister took a handful from both urns and said 'a little bit of Joe, and a little bit of Kenneth. I think perhaps a little bit more of our Joe, and then some more of Kenneth'. At which Peggy snapped 'Come on, dearie, it's only a gesture, not a recipe.', a line surely worthy of Joe himself - though indicative of the contempt in which Ramsey held the Orton family. She described them as simply "the little people in Leicester", leaving a cold nondescript note and bouquet on their behalf at the funeral.

Orton's legacy stands to live on in his home town, Leicester as the development of the "cultural quarter" of the city (a former industrial area) continues apace and the new Theatre, Curve, the central development in the area, has a new pedestrian concourse outside the theatre's main entrance named, "Orton Square". Curve officially opens on December 4 2008.

That entire paragraph is a complete mess and needs to be fixed. I'd do so myself but I have no idea how, since I don't know what it means or the details or what's correct and what isn't or where the quotes end and begin. Softlavender (talk) 09:01, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

References

Split Young life section

The books fiasco seems to be a separate topic, really. Not sure if my choice of header was too tongue in cheek for a 'cyclopedia, though... Huw Powell (talk) 01:47, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Diaries

Halliwell left a suicide note, informing police that all would be explained if they read Orton's diaries, "especially the latter part". I think to leave this as is would be to undervalue the importance of Orton's diaries, both in shaping our image and understanding of Orton's character and personality (as writer and icon, not to mention as Byronic hero); and simply as works of literature in themselves. What's more, especially for the uninformed coming to this subject for the first time, it underplays the sexually explicit nature of the diaries. As we know, Halliwell used to read Orton's diary entries, and as his insecurity grew, they must have played havoc with his jealousy and possessiveness. Nuttyskin (talk) 22:20, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Liaison with Brian Epstein?

This link talks about Orton forming "a liaison with a prominent manager of a well known music team at that time and it would have been a wonderful combination. Apparently Halliwell had found out about it and beat Joe to death with a hammer…two weeks later, sad to relate, the new found friend of Joe Orton committed suicide".

Already, one thinks of the Beatles and their manager Brian Epstein. Add the fact that Epstein did kill himself on 27 August 1967, just over 2 weeks after Orton's murder, and it's clear who they're talking about. But they don't name him. Can this be corroborated anywhere? -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 06:26, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

ORTON'S MURDER PROMPTED McCARTNEY TO WRITE "MAXWELL'S SILVER HAMMER" ON THE ABBEY ROAD ALBUM???

I have been studying The Beatles for many years and was the official Beatles consultant when working for The Guinness Book of Hit Singles and Albums. In all that time, and referring to over 200 books in my archives plus countless magazines & articles, I have never seen any mention of a link between Orton & McCartney/"Maxwell's Silver Hammer", so a dubious claim at best, out & out wrong at worst. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.109.254.24 (talk) 11:22, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Prick Up Your Erse

(Orton's original title, conceived some time before Lahr's book, was to have been Prick Up Your Erse, erse being a pronunciation of arse.)

As well as an obsolete word for Irish Gaelic, the only other life which erse (or airse) has had is as the Scots pronunciation of arse; and I find it highly unlikely that Orton, linguistically on the Leicester-London axis, would have made this connection. Besides which, I have never encountered this reference in any other reliable source related to Orton's work. I suspect it may be vandalism. Nuttyskin (talk) 13:06, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

Who died first?

The section on the murder of Joe Orton says that Halliwell bludgeoned Orton to death, "and then" committed suicide. If one goes and continues on this section, one reads that "investigators confirmed that Halliwell died first." Is this not contradicting the claim that Halliwell bludgeoned Orton to death AND THEN committed suicid?Vorbee (talk) 17:05, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Orton's sister Leonie seemed to confirm this on edition 25 of Series 40 of BBC One's Antiques Roadshow in September 2018: [1]. But yes that is an unintended contradiction.There's an interesting 2017 article here about Leonie and the murder. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:38, 1 October 2018 (UTC)

Halliwell took a huge dose of Nembutal (a barbiturate) and died almost instantly. In 'Prick Up Your Ears' Lahr says Orton's blood was still warm when the police entered their flat and he had initially survived the attack. I can't cite this precisely because I don't have a copy of the book to hand - apologies for that, but I hope this helps makes sense of the apparent anomaly. Should this information be added to clarify things? Joe-Kingsley-Orton (talk) 23:51, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

Typewriter

Orton's (later) Adler typewriter was featured in edition 25 of Series 40 of BBC One's Antiques Roadshow in September 2018: [2]. Expert Rupert Powell valued it at £3,000 - £4,000. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:45, 1 October 2018 (UTC)

This is obviously wrong, as a 3000-pound typewriter would be completely impractical. EEng 08:28, 28 October 2018 (UTC)

It was a Chinese model, 4,000 keys. Xanthomelanoussprog (talk) 13:04, 28 October 2018 (UTC)

Hard to believe they built that terrific wall with such awkward technology. EEng 15:49, 28 October 2018 (UTC)

Yes, and surprising that it's actually made of rice paper and birds' nests. But actually 6,000 characters. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:55, 28 October 2018 (UTC)

He had the Peking Meduck model, made down Sun Rises In The East Park Road. Xanthomelanoussprog (talk) 20:10, 28 October 2018 (UTC)

Eh oop, me lad, Peking Me Duck... as served throughout the 70s at Batley Variety Club. Reet gradely. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:20, 28 October 2018 (UTC)

Is this entire exchange not simply one steaming pile of crap? And though I despise Wiki editors who run their Talk pages like their own personal fiefdoms; shouldn't the content of a Talk page be at least about the article subject? And not simply function as toiletpaper for the mind?

Nuttyskin (talk) 23:10, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

I thought it started off ok. Feel free to collapse it. Or possible offer your opinion on the typewriter. Martinevans123 (talk) 06:56, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

If it is indeed an Adler typewriter, that should strongly suggest it not be of Chinese manufacture, at all, but German; Adler being the German word for eagle, the heraldic beast on the armorial shield of Germany.

Nuttyskin (talk) 01:07, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

problematic section re: mixing of Joe and Kenneth's ashes

I have a slight problem with this section:

"According to Dennis Dewsnap's memoir, What's Sex Got to Do with It (The Syden Press, 2004), Orton and Halliwell had their ashes mixed and were buried together. Dewsnap writes about Orton's agent Peggy Ramsay: "...At the scattering of Joe's and Kenneth's ashes, his sister took a handful from both urns and said, 'A little bit of Joe, and a little bit of Kenneth. I think perhaps a bit more of our Joe, and then some more of Kenneth.' At which Peggy snapped, 'Come on, dearie, it's only a gesture, not a recipe.'"[36]"

The quote comes from a 2004 publication.

I have found no other reference to this being said, neither in Lahr's 1978 biography, his introduction to The Orton Diaries (1987), his introduction to the Orton plays (1976), Kenneth Williams' diaries (1994) etc etc. The only reference to this that I can find is in the screenplay of the 1987 film Prick Up Your Ears, where this is said at the scattering of the ashes scene. As far as I can make out, this was an invention for the film. I wonder if Mr Dewsnap has misremembered the event and has been influenced by the film? I would have expected such an Ortonesque bon mot to have been recorded elsewhere. Mr Dewsnap is not mentioned in any of the above books. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.129.159.152 (talk) 13:39, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Agree. This now sounds very suspect. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:10, 24 January 2021 (UTC) p.s. apparently, Mr Dewsnap has some previous with urns and ashes....

I have removed it. I wonder if Mr Dewsnap was even at the funeral ashes scattering ceremony as it was a small affair by all accounts. 86.155.139.165 (talk) 10:17, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

I guess the one person who might know where that dialogue came from would be the film's script-writer. I see the mixing of the ashes is now sourced to p.337 of the 1980 Penguin edition of Lahr's Prick Up Your Ears. Would it possible to add a chapter title? But the article also uses the 1978 Bloomsbury edition, so maybe those should be rationalised. The only edition I have is the 1979 Knopf edition, and that only has 302 pages. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:49, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

And Leonie Barnett, Joe's sister and keeper of his flame - especially as it was purportedly said to her. Will add the chapter title and rationalise all to the Penguin edition, as requested. She has written a memoir (with a fab Ortonesque title - I Had It In Me: A Memoir, writing for understandable reasons as Leonie Orton) but I haven't got a copy of it yet. Cheers 86.155.139.165 (talk) 11:12, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Many thanks. I had not heard of that memoir. Great title, lol. I have found the funeral details in my edition on page 279 - the very last page of the book proper. What was reported was what Douglas said about the mixing of the ashes: "As long as no-one hears about it Leicester". That might be a usable quote. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:28, 28 January 2021 (UTC) p.s. there were two dozen mourners and Donald Pleasence read his own poem "Hilarium Memoriam J.O.".

p.p.s. is there a source for Peggy Ramsay "leaving a cold, nondescript note and bouquet at the funeral on their behalf"? Martinevans123 (talk) 11:35, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with that quote. I wonder if it is part of the Leonie ref given earlier in the sentence? I've just ordered Leonie's book from Amazon. I think it might be very useful. The funeral (I used the wrong word above - I meant ashes scattering) and ashes scattering must surely have been two separate events: even if Joe was cremated on the same day as his funeral and the funeral was early in the morning I doubt his ashes would have been ready to be scattered that same day, what with the logistics of cremating time, cremulating, cooling, packaging etc. Ashes scattering are usually small private family and close friend affairs so I really am very sceptical of Mr Dewsnap having been there. Will carry on looking in my sources ... 86.155.139.165 (talk) 11:45, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

In the book Lahr says the cremation was actually done somewhere else anyway. The chapel was just for theatrical effect. Was this factually correct at Golders Green in 1967? But you're right about the ashes not usually being available the same day. This is not made clear by Lahr. Halliwell had been cremated at Enfield the previous day. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:52, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Odd if it wasn't carried out at the crematorium where the service was held! Doesn't answer any questions but here's an interesting film snippet: [3] 86.155.139.165 (talk) 11:58, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

I assume he meant just a different building. Yes, that's an interesting clip. Pleasence very noticeable. I guess that's Pinter with hair! Martinevans123 (talk) 12:04, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Problem solved. I've just received Leonie Orton's book and she says this (my bold for emphasis): "Another scene in the film which I found troubling is towards the end where I (Frances Barber) stand beside Peggy (Vanessa Redgrave) in front of three funeral urns mixing Joe and Kenneth's ashes together: 'I think I'm putting in more of Joe than I am of Kenneth,' I say, to which Peggy replies: 'It's only a gesture, dear. It's not a recipe.' This event is again theatrical and never actually took place." I Had It In Me, Leonie Orton (Barnett), 2016, Leicester: Quirky Press, pp. 180-181.

So Mr Dewsnap is to be disregarded. It doesn't help that the official Joe Orton website perpetuates this misunderstanding: http://www.joeorton.org/Pages/Joe_Orton_Life16.html 86.182.122.180 (talk) 12:46, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

Many thanks for clarifying. Maybe the quote reported in Lahr could be added instead. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:58, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

Done. I've left in the second ref re: the ashes being scattered in as I have read erroneous reports elsewhere that they were deposited. 86.182.122.180 (talk) 13:19, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

Thanks. If you've ever read his 1994 Writing Home, you'll know that Mr Bennett simply can't resist a good joke and doesn't necessarily allow historical accuracy to get in the way of one. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:12, 4 February 2021 (UTC)