Talk:Johnny Hartman

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Biography: Musicians

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NPOV[edit]

The "Biography" section reads as though a publicist wrote it (no offense). "On the shortlist of the greatest jazz singers of all time...." Whose shortlist? "...beautiful voice, good looks and an engaging stage presence" etc. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 06:59, 19 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I've restored (most of) an earlier version of this section. The earlier version has its own issues but was better than this rewrite. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 07:05, 19 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Copied?[edit]

Most of the article is very similar to http://johnnyhartmanbook.com/hartman_biography and was added in 2010. That site states "If this bio looks at all like the one at Wikipedia it's because someone copied what I wrote here or elsewhere to that page, not the other way around". I'd guess that's accurate; I'll try to change the article when I have time. EddieHugh (talk) 21:12, 19 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am not at all certain about the claim appearing on that webpage. This might save you the trouble of (further) digging through this article's history: The text in question first appeared on Wikipedia with this series of edits in March 2010 (from an IP address at the University of Cincinnati, FWIW). However, archive.org does not show any version of the book's bio webpage before September 2012 (link), and the website itself, johnnyhartmanbook.com, doesn't show up before March 2012 (link). It's possible, although I believe unlikely, that archive.org didn't save either of them earlier than that (I can't tell from a WHOIS lookup when the domain name was registered). But I also see that, while the website simply states that "sources for quotes are cited in The Last Balladeer: The Johnny Hartman Story," the Wikipedia edits actually cite those quotes to their original sources (e.g. Frank Kofsky). In Jan-Feb 2012, an anonymous IP address began citing Akkerman's then-forthcoming book, and adding external links to it (link).

As for the claim that the Wikipedia text might have been copied from elsewhere, archive.org shows similar text (credited to Gregg Akkerman, the book's author) appearing at jazzbiographies.com in November 2011 (link). At allaboutjazz.com, the Hartman bio is credited to Akkerman, and says it was last updated in July 2012, but doesn't actually say how old it is (link). But I'm just seeing these by searching on a particular sentence of the article's text. The results are widespread around the web such that I'm not sure we can realistically, much less absolutely, determine whether it first appeared on Wikipedia or not, but the website's own claim is (to me) rather dubious. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 15:56, 20 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Additional detail: I also see that in December 2010, an anonymous user replaced the text with a gushing and extremely fan POV assessment (link), and that this text appears elsewhere on the web. Then in October 2011, I came along and reverted it to the earlier version (link), with the justification that it "has its own issues but was better than the most recent version." -- Gyrofrog (talk) 15:56, 20 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. As for what we might do about this issue (if it is indeed an issue), here is the pre-March 2010 version, should we choose to revert to it. I'm not suggesting, at this point, that we should, but WP:COPYVIO mentions it as a remedy, and ultimately it is probably the quickest and safest (if not best) course of action. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 16:06, 20 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

All biographical info that seems part of the above discussion is my own (Gregg Akkerman). I created it early in the writing process for the book "The Last Balladeer: The Johnny Hartman Story." I distributed it to a few acquaintances and outside readers, one of whom placed it here at Wikipedia which I am happy to see, but I wanted to make sure that when people came to my book-related website johnnyhartmanbook.com (created later) they understood clearly that the biography was indeed mine. Hopefully this alleviates any concern if, as pondered above, there is really any concern to alleviate.Gakkerman (talk) 21:27, 7 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I suppose I should add that any Johnny Hartman biographical info found here at Wikipedia that is edited or deviates from the biography found on my website (or the one I wrote for JazzBiographies.com) has been altered by someone other than me (gushing fans, etc.) and I can't vouch for it. As for the citations in the biography to original sources (i.e., Kofsky), those were provided by me to the colleague who posted the info here at some point. Although I'm pleased s/he did so, as I would always prefer to see original sources cited rather than something that came later, even if it is my own book.Gakkerman (talk) 21:45, 7 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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