Talk:Kabylia

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Kabylia article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1

Berbers

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Berbers, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Berbers on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.BerbersWikipedia:WikiProject BerbersTemplate:WikiProject BerbersBerbers articles
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Africa: Algeria Top‑importance

	Africa portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Africa, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Africa on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.AfricaWikipedia:WikiProject AfricaTemplate:WikiProject AfricaAfrica articles
Top	This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by WikiProject Algeria (assessed as Top-importance).

This article is about a topic whose name is originally rendered in the Berber script; however the article does not have that version of its name in the article's lead paragraph. Anyone who is knowledgeable enough with the original language is invited to assist in adding the Berber script.
For more information, see: MOS:FOREIGN.

This article has previously been nominated to be moved.

Move logs: Kabylia
Kabylie

Discussions:

RM, Kabylie → Kabylia, Moved, 12 August 2020, Discussion
RM, Kabylia → Kabylie, Not moved, 9 October 2023, Discussion

Languages[edit]

How come is Arabic listed as a language ? Kwikygoat (talk) 16:45, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Why shouldn't it be? The real question is: how come you're not questioning the listing of the French language? M.Bitton (talk) 16:47, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The thing is us kabyles aren’t okay with arabization. There have been many issues with the government trying to stifle our language and we’re not okay with this because who wants to lose its language and identity ? Kwikygoat (talk) 18:00, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Kwikygoat, you'll have to find a source saying that. Valereee (talk) 18:09, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I mean, go in Kabylia and ask a Kabyle yourself ? I don’t think there is a Kabyle talking on the subject in a book but if I search and find I’ll put it. Kwikygoat (talk) 19:01, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that's what we need: someone saying it somewhere. Valereee (talk) 19:23, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Okay so obviously it’s not a literary but the Kabyle journal Siwel made an article on the MAK here : https://www.siwel.info/contre-larabisation-de-la-kabylie-le-mak-appelle-a-un-rassemblement-a-paris-samedi-27-octobre_58209.html (against the arabization of Kabylia)

https://www.siwel.info/communique-du-premier-ministre-kabyle-en-soutien-au-boycott-de-la-langue-arabe-en-kabylie_58216.html

https://www.nytimes.com/1979/01/08/archives/algerian-minority-may-pose-problems-industrious-but-warlike-kabyles.html («This is Kabylia, the mountainous coastal region of northeastern Algeria, and memories run strong among its Berber people, who over the centuries have resisted the invasions of Phoenecians, Arabs »).

« A decade later tensions between Arabs and Kabyles dogged the National Liberation Front's guerrilla war for independence, which was finally gained in 1962 after more than seven years' fighting.

Thanks for reading The Times.

Subscribe to The Times

On one level the Kabyles would seem to have lost out in independent Algeria. On Dec. 15, 1967, Col. Tahar Zbiri, a Kabyle, staged an unsuccessful uprising against Colonel Boumediene; four months later the Algerian leader was wounded in the face in an assassination attempt believed to be the work of Colonel Zbiri's agents. In 1970 the teaching of Berber languages, of which Kabyle is a dialect, was abolished in Algerian universities. ». This so-called beautiful country abolished Kabyle in the Universities. im not even talking about the Berber Spring. (protests for kabylia independance and language). Poor soul and grand singer Matoub Lounès him was assassinated during October 1988. You understand know why this people isn’t respectable and pretends to be something he isn’t (that is fake Arabs that in reality are in Saudi Arabia) ? Kwikygoat (talk) 20:55, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The scholarly subject of Arabization cannot be reduced to simplistic statements about them and us, or worse, personal opinions about the good, the bad, the real, the fake Kabyle and the fake Arab (what does that even mean?). What the Kabyles did to each other and to innocent poor strangers is also another complicated subject. More important though, neither of them has anything to do with the languages that are spoken by the Kabyles.

Here's a reliable source^[1] that describes Arabic as their second language. M.Bitton (talk) 21:07, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I love Oxford honestly, but for something that isn’t science, that is linguistics, there’s no way to know what’s true or false. And I can’t take someone who isn’t from the country he talks about seriously, especially when it’s about tribes like the Berbers. More importantly, don’t you find bold to tell a Kabyle what language he speaks ? Kwikygoat (talk) 21:12, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

My concern here is edit-warring. If you can use those sources to convince other editors here, that's great, but you can't edit-war in that content. You need to stop reverting and discuss with others. Valereee (talk) 21:14, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thankfully for me it’s not that big of a deal. I’ve spent time answering to the other guy in order to make him learn that Kabyles don’t speak don’t speak Arabic. But honestly whether or not the page shows Arabic won’t change my life, it’s just about finding the truth. Also I thank you for being respectful and accepting that there might be an error. Kwikygoat (talk) 21:20, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The idea that Kabyles don't speak Arabic is obviously baseless.

What did you mean by We don’t speak Arabic. If you see one speak Arabic it means he’s been arabized and is a fake Kabyle and can you support it with a reliable source? Does that apply to the French (that you added to the article) or is is purely an "Arabic thing"? M.Bitton (talk) 21:21, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

As I’ve already said, I firmly believe that an article/Wikipedia page on a non scientific object should be made by the people from the region it is subject, all while being accurate and non biased. If you had taken time to read what I wrote, you would see that we have no pride in speaking Arabic and that we don’t unless in school, because that horrible government abolished the language in the universities. Now, what kind of source do you expect ? That the Arab president Tebboune makes a speech where he says Kabyles don’t speak Arab ? You obviously know there is no such source so that’s why you keep insisting on this, M. Skeptic. Also, the same source you sent (from an university I admire and watch content from everyday by the way) says that Kabyles have pride in Arabic resistance (Arabic resistance includes resistance to the loss of identity that is language). It is not written « Kabyles have pride in speaking ARABIC ». Don’t you find ironic to expect to find the language spoken by Kabyles in a book, from a non Kabyle, instead of yourself as I said talking to a Kabyle (any) and ask him what language he talks and see the answer he will give you ?

For the French, it’s different. Kabyles have a different relation with French since myself am French and live there, so it’s my language and have no problem with speaking it. The Arab-Kabyle issue also has been existing since centuries. Kwikygoat (talk) 21:32, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

And even today, the government is reluctant to the cause of the Kabyles, compared to France where we have no issue and are treated very well. Kwikygoat (talk) 21:33, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.reddit.com/r/algeria/comments/10jn5yv/do_most_people_in_kabyle_region_speak_kabyle/

Just found a page where Kabyles themselves answer about what language they speak. Kwikygoat (talk) 21:40, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I see. In other words, you're here to right great wrongs. Ironically, you seem to be contradicting yourself: wanting the subject to be written by people from the region and having a strong opinion about it while describing yourself as French. M.Bitton (talk) 21:41, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

My mom is French, with Kabyle parents born in Gouraya. My father was born in Ighiloumced and speaks kabyle fluently. He knows as much about Kabylia’s history as an expert would. I’m not asking him to back me up since he would tell me I’m wasting my time and doesn’t know I’m doing this, but know that many Kabyles have immigrated in France. Kwikygoat (talk) 21:51, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In other words, you are French. By your very own standard, you shouldn't be talking about the region. M.Bitton (talk) 21:53, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You’re very stubborn. Since it’s not a big deal for me and won’t affect my sleep tonight, I’ll stop answering and let you in your ignorance my Caucasian friend. I hope you’ll one day talk to a Kabyle or someone who lived there. Kwikygoat (talk) 21:57, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ William Frawley (2003). International Encyclopedia of Linguistics 4-Volume Set. Oxford University Press, USA. p. 221. ISBN 978-0-19-513977-8.

Requested move 9 October 2023[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) – robertsky (talk) 17:01, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Kabylia → Kabylie – I strongly advocate for the use of "Kabylie" as the preferred name for the region. While the term "Kabylia" may appear to be an attempt to anglicize or align the name more closely with Algeria, it lacks significant usage in English-language sources. It is important that we prioritize accuracy in naming conventions. The name "Kabylie" has been widely accepted and recognized in both academic and popular discourse. Even advanced language models like ChatGPT, which have been trained on an extensive corpus of English-language sources, consistently use "Kabylie" when referring to the region. To support the use of "Kabylia," I would encourage the inclusion of reliable English-language sources, such as books, articles, and reputable websites, that consistently employ this term. Using "Kabylia" solely for the sake of anglicization or to sound more "Algerian" is not grounded in linguistic or academic precedent and should be avoided in favor of the established and widely accepted term, "Kabylie." AhmedDjoudi (talk) 12:44, 9 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. I don't see anything that would suggest that "Kabylie" (the French equivalent of "Kabylia") is widely used in the English sources. The few books about the subject tend to use "Kabylia" to refer to the region. The only times where "Kabylie" is mentioned is when they are referring to a French source. The same thing for the various articles in Google Scholar: a search for "Kabylia" yields thousands of English articles all referring to the region, while a search for "Kabylie" yields more results (exclusively in French). I also fail to see how Kabylia is more Algerian sounding or an issue with it if that was the case. M.Bitton (talk) 15:35, 10 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose: I agree with M.Bitton's point. Additionally, this Google Ngram shows that Kabylia has much higher results than Kabylie in English. Skitash (talk) 17:19, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

[William_Frawley-1] William Frawley (2003). International Encyclopedia of Linguistics 4-Volume Set. Oxford University Press, USA. p. 221. ISBN 978-0-19-513977-8.

[1]