Talk:Kashatagh Province

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Qashatagh and Lachin aren't the same thing so no redirect necessary[edit]

Qashatagh and Lachin provinces aren't the same thing. Qashatagh has the area of Lachin + Zangelan + Qubadli. Lachin is de jure and Qashatagh is de facto. The articles should remain separate. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 03:01, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Name[edit]

Is it Qashatagh or Kashatagh? nkr.am calls it Kashatagh.

It's Քաշաթաղ in Armenian which transliterates to Qashatagh. The NKR govrnments use of Kashatagh is due to Qashatagh first being translated to Russian which doesn't have a Q and then to English. I'm gonna stick to direct transliteration unless someone objects. VartanM (talk) 06:12, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oh and thanks for removing the redirect, I didn't even know that this article existed. I was about to start one from a scratch. VartanM (talk) 06:14, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Provinces[edit]

The article says that NKR has 8 provinces while the map only shows 7. Is Stepanakert considered a separate province or is it part of Askeran? VartanM (talk) 06:16, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

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History section[edit]

I don't see how the following quote proves that this region was part of a melikdom:

V in 1609 the Shah of Persia Abbas I defended its charter the right of the ruler of the principality melik Haykaza. The Persian documents, decrees, kept in Matenadaran (1601-1650s.), V. II, Er., 1957, pp.89-90.

I removed it, and placed a request for better sources. --Grandmaster 00:49, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

What do you think that the document means? Laurel Lodged (talk) 11:24, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
No idea. What does it mean? Grandmaster 20:01, 6 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Sourced information at [1] state that Syunik/Siwnik (where Kashatagh was located if I'm not mistaken) was part of the Melikdom. --HistoryofIran (talk) 20:10, 6 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It is not obvious from the text that it refers to this particular region, plus it is a primary source. Grandmaster 21:37, 6 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
How is it not so? And what source is a primary source? HistoryofIran (talk)
Does the source say that the Shah Abbas granted melik the territory that is presently located in this particular region? I don't see that it does. And personal interpretation of a primary source is an OR. The source must explicitly support what is written in the article. Grandmaster 09:48, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, it seems you were actually adressing Lodgrels comment and not mine. Anyhow as I said sourced information at [2] state that Syunik/Siwnik (where Kashatagh was located) was part of the Melikdom. --HistoryofIran (talk) 09:53, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Once again, the source must say that. The one quoted says something about Shah Abbas, and nothing about this particular region. I don't see it mentioning modern "Kashatag". We cannot make our own interpretation of a primary source. It would be an OR. Grandmaster 15:54, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Says who? You do realize that Kashatagh is a relatively young name, whilst Siwnik has been the term to apply to the greater region since pre-Islamic times? It has nothing to do with own interpretation, it's simple geography. And how is Robert H. Hewsen a primary source? Please don't make this a Tigranakert of Artsakh part 2.
Found something here, seemingly not about the Melikdoms of Karabagh but about the Meliks regardless (Hewsen, Robert H. 2001. Armenia: A Historical Atlas. Chicago: University of Chicago Press. p. 163,); "Counting the five meliks of Karabagh (six if we add the meliks of Tsar), there were well over forty meliks in the Persian khanates and Georgia: at least eleven in the khanate of Erivan (Erivan itself, Gegham I Sodk', Ghulali, P'arakank', Dalughardash, Gandzak I Noraduz, Karbi, Galni, Surmalu, Akoli, and Davalu), twelve in the khanate of Nakhichevan (Sisian I Angeghakot', Tat'ew, Kap'an I Bex , Meghri I Kenavuz , Bargiushat, Ch'avendur, K'ashatagh / Tsaghadzor or Zangazur, Etir, Nakhichevan, Chugha / Julfa, Agulis, and Ordubat), four in the khanate of Ganja (Hachakap, Barsum, Gardman 10skanapat, and Getashen), and one each in the khanates of Shirvan (at Shemakhi), Nukhi or Shekki, Baku, Maku, and Khoy"
Also, some interesting info (same page); "The Persians recognized meliks wherever Armenians lived in the Persian khanates of Caucasia, although in Siunik' these were only semiautonomous and elsewhere many were little more than hereditary ethnarchs-"mayors," as it were, of the local Armenian community of a given town (e.g., the Aghamalian meliks of the Armenians of Erevan or the Babut'ashvili meliks of those of Tiflis)-<>r even mere village headmen (e.g., the meliks of Galni, Akoli, Surmalu, and Davalu)."
There we go. --HistoryofIran (talk) 16:01, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
According to WP:SOURCE: Use sources that directly support the material presented in an article and are appropriate to the claims made. I don't see any of those sources saying anything about modern Kashatag. First source is not useful at all, and Hewsen is very vague. Is old Kashatag the same as modern? According to Hewsen, it was located in the Khanate of Nakhchivan. And this region was clearly a part of Karabakh khanate, which is somehow not mentioned at all. Grandmaster 16:29, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, this is a clear case of WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT. Now you're just denying literal evidence and making up assumptions, I would highly suggest you to read WP:POV, WP:OR and WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT. Looks like this is a Tigranekert part 2 indeed. If you have doubts that the Kashatagh in the source is not the same as this Kashatagh (???), then please show some evidence. Otherwise, I believe we're done here. --HistoryofIran (talk) 16:39, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
You haven't provided any evidence to support your claims. Your personal interpretation of sources is nothing but WP:OR. As I said above, the rules require that the source must directly support the material. All I see is that you fail to provide any sources to support your claims. And why you keep on bringing Tigranakert? We'll get back to that soon. It is now under Azerbaijani control, and there will be a lot of material from independent investigation of that place. Grandmaster 20:35, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Read again: (Hewsen, Robert H. 2001. Armenia: A Historical Atlas. Chicago: University of Chicago Press. p. 163,); "Counting the five meliks of Karabagh (six if we add the meliks of Tsar), there were well over forty meliks in the Persian khanates and Georgia: at least eleven in the khanate of Erivan (Erivan itself, Gegham I Sodk', Ghulali, P'arakank', Dalughardash, Gandzak I Noraduz, Karbi, Galni, Surmalu, Akoli, and Davalu), twelve in the khanate of Nakhichevan (Sisian I Angeghakot', Tat'ew, Kap'an I Bex , Meghri I Kenavuz , Bargiushat, Ch'avendur, K'ashatagh / Tsaghadzor or Zangazur, Etir, Nakhichevan, Chugha / Julfa, Agulis, and Ordubat), four in the khanate of Ganja (Hachakap, Barsum, Gardman 10skanapat, and Getashen), and one each in the khanates of Shirvan (at Shemakhi), Nukhi or Shekki, Baku, Maku, and Khoy"
After that please read the rules I posted as well. Besides here, I see you are still denying literally independent and reliable sources for Tigranekert once more, this is starting to become disruptive behaviour. --HistoryofIran (talk) 20:50, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Once again, the source above refers to some 'K'ashatagh place in Nakhchivan. How do you know that it is the same as the one covered by this non-existent province? And stop wiki-lawyering, if you think that my behavior is disruptive, you are free to file a complaint. Grandmaster 20:54, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Actually it says khanate of Nakhichevan, and who says that Nakhichevan was the exact same size as it today? More assumptions I see? No offense but I rather believe a reputable historian such as Hewsen than you. And oh don't worry, I will do that if this pattern continues. --HistoryofIran (talk) 20:58, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I have already updated it to mention khanate of Nakhichevan. But it would still be good to find a reliable source to confirm if those locations correspond this place. And I'm not worried in the least. Grandmaster 21:06, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Some common sense is beginning to break out. Laurel Lodged (talk) 13:37, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
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