Talk:Kriegsmarine

Gneisenau/Scharnhorst classification dispute

Please note that this has been debated before: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Gneisenau_class_battlecruiser The outcome seems to be that they are to be classified as battlecruisers in the english wikipedia as they are called such in German battlecruiser Scharnhorst and German battlecruiser Gneisenau. (with a note about the KM classification as battleships). --Sus scrofa 13:33, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Uboat statistics

As there is a disagreement as to the percentage of KM submarines destroyed during the war some source for this statistic has to be found. It's also a matter of clarifying what's meant with "destroyed": does this number include the subs scuttled at the end of the war, is the percentage based on the total number of subs built or on the total number of subs commissioned and so on. --Sus scrofa 13:33, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

This website [1] provides stats of losses, per year. Also quotes 1154 u-boats availble during the war (others not commissioned are excluded). Destroyed percentage comes to about 67% I believe. Folks at 137 16:50, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

OK, I'm counting 692 subs lost in combat (incl. 4 given to Japan at the end of the war) and 397 subs that were surrendered or scuttled by their own crew at the end of the war, 37 subs that were retired during the war and 25 lost by fratricide or accidents. 692 / 1154 = ~60 %. So it's a matter of defining "destroyed" I guess. The scuttled subs were destroyed but not in combat so I think 60 % is the correct figure.--Sus scrofa 18:33, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Instead of 'destroyed', how about a more precise characterization? 'Sunk in action' seems like the interesting number; obviously, any boats left at the end of the war were surrendered or scuttled.

—wwoods 21:30, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

How's this: "During World War II, about 60% of all U-boats commissioned were lost in action; 28,000 of the 40,000 U-boat crewmen were killed during the war and 8,000 were captured."? And then maybe a note about the scuttling/surrendering at the end of the war. --Sus scrofa 22:59, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Linkspammer

Just to say that the linkspammer active here has been here before, and got a block of several days. I recommend another one if he starts again. A range block from about 180 to 200 in the third number worked. DJ Clayworth 13:08, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Flag

Note that the Iron Cross on the flag is deliberately set to the left as per Flags of the World. More info on image desc. page.

Greentubing 23:55, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Hitler inspecting crew.

"Hitler inspecting Kriegsmarine units at the height of the war." This cannot be true. The Kriegsmarine officer with Hitler is Ernst Lindeman, captain of battleship Bismarck. The picture was taken during Hitler's visit to the battleship in 1941. --Kurt Leyman 13:19, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Major ports/naval bases?

The article omits this important information. What were the major ports, submarine bases, etc.? --KJK::Hyperion 04:59, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

always: Wilhelmshafen, Emden, Hamburg, Kiel additional wartime: Brest (41-42 for large surface combatants), St. Nazaire (subs), Bordeaux (subs), Danzig, Lorient (subs) plus the use of several fjords of Norway as staging areas (Tirpitz, Scharnhorst, Prinz Eugen) Lastdingo (talk) 22:33, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Updates to External Links

I have replaced the explicit External Links with {{cite web}} templates ... I used the <title> from the web pages for the title= tags ... there were two links to the same website (www.german-navy.de), so I removed one of them. --72.75.126.37 00:45, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

"Adolf Hitler leaving a Kriegsmarine battleship together with Grand Admiral Erich Raeder."

Excuse me, but isn't the Admiral with Hitler actually Otto Ciliax? Regards, --Kurt Leyman 16:44, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Command structure

Added a section on this but it needs some expansion, if anyone has info. I've avoided adding names, as it would become a list. Also the OKM article badly needs serious attention as to its function and organisation - mainly a description of the OKM flag at present. Folks at 137 19:48, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Pt-2745-75dpi.jpg

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BetacommandBot (talk) 22:11, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Wehrmacht Marine

German military license plates for the Navy used the abbreviation "WM" ("Wehrmacht Marine"), so the degree of useage of "Kriegsmarine" is questionable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.14.240.177 (talk) 10:54, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Infobox

Shouldn't "Notable Commanders" be replaced simply with "Commanders", and is also POV? bigpad (talk) 13:11, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

The "Notable Commanders" field is a function of the infobox and I don't think it can be changed. Raeder and Dönitz were the two commanders of the Kriegsmarine so I think they are notable in this context. To clarify, I don't think that "notable" is meant to mean "good" or "skilled" in this context; a disastrously incompetent commander that led his unit to many defeats would also be "notable", ie. he deserves to be mentioned in the infobox.--Sus scrofa (talk) 18:01, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

expression of opinion on submarine quantities

"It is arguable that, had more resources been put more into U-boats earlier, then Britain would not have been able to defend its convoys quickly enough to avoid defeat. In fact after a year of war, production of new ships had only kept up with losses." I propose to delete this. It's opinion, not fact - and a rather ill-informed opinion. Here is an explanation: http://defense-and-freedom.blogspot.com/2009/06/german-submarine-force-size-of-1939.html Lastdingo (talk) 22:36, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Since the statement in question is unsourced and hedged with the word "arguably" I see no problem with removing it.--Sus scrofa (talk) 16:29, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

As I read it, the Defence and Freedom page referred to does not challenge the contention that more subs could have beaten Britain. It explains the reasons why, not the impact. The second part of the statement, about new v. losses, can certainly be sourced, if only from statistics. As for the first part, Donitz himself reckoned 300 subs would strangle Britain, so there was an arguable case for the statement. Folks at 137 (talk) 23:20, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Air-sea rescue

A link to air-sea rescue has just been added, but the Seenotdienst is perhaps worth a passing mention. They worked with volunteer life saving boat groups in occupied countries, and with Kriegsmarine units to coordinate rescues. Binksternet (talk) 12:43, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Feel free to contribute, as long as it's "aircraft supporting the Kriegsmarine". If it's just boats, it shouldn't be in the Air and Land units paragraph. --Regards, Necessary Evil (talk) 13:02, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

War crimes and involvement in Holocaust?

Despite the length of the article, it misses an important subject-the Kriegsmarine war crimes and its involvement in mass murder of Jewish population. This should be added to the article.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 15:21, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

The only related fact that comes to my mind is that the RAF sunk a Kreigsmarine transport (the name escapes me at the moment) near the end of the war that was carrying prisoners from a concentration camp, so the Kriegsmarine was involved in the Holocaust to some degree. --Sus scrofa (talk) 17:23, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Kriegsmarine was involved in Holocaust in Latvia(Liepāja massacres), I will also have to check its involvement in medical experiments on humans. Also I believe that some Kriegsmarine personnel was used during death marches--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 18:42, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

The Kriegsmarine was not part of the organization and execution of the Holocaust. That was the SS. The Kriegsmarine was also not doing by herself mass murders on Jews. You can see that in the Libau case Liepāja massacres. SS units were doing the crimes.

A generalisation like in the first sentence: "The Kriegsmarine was involved during the war in atrocities and Holocaust." without any references then the case Libau is not sincere history. I delete the sentence and change the chapter to War Crimes. -- Rakell (talk) 23:30, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

"Reichsmarine" to "Kriegsmarine"?

Reichsmarine sounds perfectly acceptable for an entity which would later refer to itself as the 3rd Reich... The article however doesn't mention why it was suddenly renamed to Kriegsmarine. Although I assume it had a national/internal propaganda purpose, are there any verifiable sources that mention why exactly this happened? -- MiG (talk) 14:56, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

For German ears is the name Kriegsmarine more warlike then Reichsmarine (Krieg means war). This is the reason why the name was changed. But in the time of the Reichsmarine the Reichsmarine was called unoffically also Kriegsmarine. A German -- Rakell (talk) 18:43, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

To clarify, the official long form name of Germany from the unification in 1871 until the end of the World War II was Deutsches Reich. Reich means something like "realm", "country" or "kingdom" in English, and isn't tied to the Third Reich although it is most known in the English speaking world from that name. So Reichsmarine took its name from the name of Germany at the time it was formed.--Sus scrofa (talk) 20:13, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

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What ships should be included in the section "Major enemy warships sunk or destroyed"?

When I created the section currently titled "Major enemy warships sunk or destroyed" I rather arbitrarily choose to only list battleships and carriers. Another editor has added cruisers and a destroyer recently. Now I want to ask where we should draw the line, should every destroyer sunk by the Kriegsmarine be listed for example? Maybe smaller vessels should be summarized, something like "The Kriegsmarine sunk X number of torpedo boats during the war" and so on? If the list gets to long it can be spun off to its own article. I guess it is a question of relevance. Also, should there be a list of Kriegsmarine losses in similar format to the "Major enemy warships sunk or destroyed" section (chronological order, cause of loss etc.)?--Sus scrofa (talk) 20:30, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

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Reasons for channel dash are incomplete

"Hitler, fearing a British invasion of Norway, forced the leadership of the Kriegsmarine to transfer her big ships based in the French Atlantic port of Brest to Norway" seems to be an incomplete and inaccurate description of the decision-making processes. The explanation of the logic for making the channel dash in the 3 sources that I have to hand are:

Garzke and Dulin pg 145-146
(a) Hitler believed Norway was the "zone of destiny".
(b) The Luftwaffe could not provide the level of air cover needed to keep the ships operational in Brest.
(c) Little chance of successful Atlantic operation (i) with the USA in the war (ii) most of the supply ships to support Atlantic operations had been lost (thought this source does not make clear the logical connection on this - only mentions it in considering the evacuation route).
(d) With the USA in the war, arctic convoys to Russia were expected to increase.

Koop and Schmolke pg 111
(a) Constant danger of air attack.
(b) Abandonment of plans for an Atlantic sortie after the loss of Bismarck.
Note that this source says that both (a) and (b) "convinced the Naval Staff that the heavy units had to be evacuated from Brest for deployment elsewhere".

Hellwinkel Kindle location 731 of 4855
(Given in a more narrative form than the sources above.)
Background: (a) After La Pallice raid on Scharnhorst, all three major warships in Brest were non-operational. In addition Lützow had been torpedoed en route to the Atlantic and was undergoing lengthy repairs Admiral Hipper and Admiral Scheer were undergoing overhaul and Tirpitz was still working up. Naval War Operations therefore had no large warships to send out into the Atlantic.
(b) The British had better monitoring of exit routes from Brest (including radar).
(c) The Atlantic supply ship network had been rolled up (based on codebreaking).
Main reasons: (d) Nov 1941 situation report to Hitler by Raeder stated that risk of air attack made staying in Brest highly undesirable.
(e) When Raeder suggested Scharnhorst and Gneisenau make an Atlantic sortie and return via Iceland, whilst Prinz Eugen returned via the channel, Hitler asked why all three ships could not return via the channel a.s.a.p. for the defence of Norway.
(f) If the channel dash was not feasible, Hitler ordered that the ships should be decommissioned in Brest.

It seems then that this article should say that evacuation from Brest was carried out because Atlantic sorties from Brest were less feasible and that ships in Brest were at significant risk of damage by air raids, as well as the increased emphasis on Norway. It is not correct to say that the evacuation was "forced on the leadership of the Kreigsmarine" as they had come to this conclusion themselves.

Do other sources concur or differ with this assessment?
ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 22:30, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

References

the german navy remains afther ww2 was NOT distributed by a single person, but for a commission ... 2Of these 48 U-boats, 30 were allocated to the Allies by the Tripartite Naval Commission."

I will make the changes if no comments come forward. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cuye (talk • contribs) 15:28, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

Shipbuilding

This page could be enhanced by details of the shipyards and warship building. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.100.188.53 (talk) 14:00, 11 September 2019 (UTC)