Talk:Kuga

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The name is pronounced Kuga, not Koga. Koga is a different name. Read the source Above the Clouds about Japanese nobility and any other source on Japanese nobility. I added sources to end this debate. Imperial78

The pronunciation of the name is Kuga not Koga

The name is Kuga (久我) and I am Japanese and I know the name. Anyone who can read Japanese knows the pronunciation of the name. Check the source Above the Clouds by Takie Sugiyama Lebra for the name. It is not Koga; the name Koga uses different kanji. Even at a non-Japanese surname site, ancestry.com, one can find this entry for Koga: "Japanese: ‘old river’; variously written, with one ancient variant of imperial descent pronounced Kuga; other alternate readings are Furukawa or Kogawa and are derived from a village named Koga in Shimōsa (now Chiba prefecture). The most common Koga name is mostly found in Kyūshū, and is descended from the Takeda family. The name is also found in the Ryūkyū Islands." Kuga is the name of the noble family and Koga is a non-noble name. You can also check this source: In Name Only: Imperial Sovereignty in Early Modern Japan by Bob Tadashi Wakabayashi in the Journal of Japanese Studies. I have included edits using academic sources. Do not make edits which are in error. Imperial78

No, unfortunately you're wrong - If you can read and write Japanese (I don't believe so though), I hope you consult 櫻友會名簿 (the alumni directory of Gakushuin). So you'll find all members from the noble family 久我 on the entry "こ", not "く". --1523 09:49, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, you are incorrect. I have listed three academic sources on the romanization of the name. Since you have not listed any academic sources, you cannot counter them. It is against wikipedia policy to do edits without the proper sources. So to say that these academic sources are incorrect and the authors of the sources speak Japanese, is quite unusual. imperial78

Gakushuin was established as the school for kōzoku and kazoku. That's why you can find all surnames of kazoku in the alumni directory. To sum up, the noble family 久我 is called as KOGA in Gakushuin, and they call themselves KOGA, not KUGA. I was once surprised that a professor at Columbia University was writing a totally wrong explanation in his Japanese grammar book - He didn't understand the passive voice in Japanese (れる-られる) exactly. It's silly to have blind faith in "academic sources". You call yourself Japanese, so why can't you refer to any Japanese sources? --1523 01:55, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Again every source of Japanese nobility has it as Kuga not Koga, including the ones with Japanese authors (as in my sources). I have included good sources from published academic journals. Since this is English wikipedia, English language sources are the best ones to use. If you look at the rules of wikipedia, they are based on published academic sources, not "what my profressor said" or other types of anecdotal evidence. Imperial78

You didn't answer my question; If you are Japanese, why can't you refer to any Japanese sources? Imperial78, you don't know Japanese, you can't read texts in original language, you better admit it. Especially the pronunciations of the kuge surnames are often different from the common surnames. Even common Japanese people get puzzled how to pronounce some of them exactly. You once wrote the first edition of List of Kuge families, in which you wrote 櫛笥 as Kushizu, 河鰭 as Kawahire, 石井 as Ishii, 勘解由小路 as Kakeyukoji, and so on, but those are all wrong - Even if some kanji of them look like the same as common surnames, kazoku surnames often have unique pronunciations. You better understand this is beyond your superficial knowledge. --1523 02:42, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Again, list academic sources, instead of ad hominems and anecdotal evidence. There can be no discussion unless you list some counter examples. I have listed three authoritative sources, all which list Kuga. Also, I did not give any kanji for the surnames, just the translations, some of which was from an older source, but still old and new sources all list the name as Kuga. Many of the sources as I have stated are written by Japanese who are familiar with the language, so to say they would make an error such as that is strange, especially every scholar to make that error. So for you to claim every English language source is wrong without listing one counter source is not good enough for wikipedia. In any event, the sources I have used are written at the end of the article. Perhaps, and what I think is more likely is that the name has variant pronunciations, perhaps to due time or area, yet the surname is all the same no matter how it is pronounced. I would compromise and list Koga as an alternative on the Kuga page.

imperial78

• the name has variant pronunciations

We see what you say is getting incoherent - you once declared "It is never listed as Koga". As the noble families' name, Kushizu, Kawahire, Ishii, Kakeyukoji and Kuga are the simple misreadings of kanji, not variants.

• Many of the sources as I have stated are written by Japanese who are familiar with the language

As I explained, the pronunciations of the kuge surnames are often different from the common surnames, so even common Japanese people get puzzled how to pronounce some of them exactly. Naturally careless Japanese make mistakes like you do. --1523 07:55, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

For Imperial78

[Some kind Japanese Wikipedians gave you "academic sources" in Japanese], but you are ignoring them. That's why I believe you don't have academic sincerity, you just want to save your face. So I have to say what you're doing is only vandalism.

1. 岡野友彦: 中世久我家と久我家領荘園（チュウセイ コガケ ト コガケリョウ ショウエン）続群書類従完成会, 2002, doctoral dissertation, ISBN 4797107383
2. [中世の貴族 : 特別展観 : 重要文化財久我家文書修復完成記念 (チュウセイ ノ キゾク : トクベツ テンカン : ジュウヨウ ブンカザイ コガケ モンジョ シュウフク カンセイ キネン 國學院大學久我家文書特別展示開催実行委員会編 東京 : 國學院大學, 1996]
3. 橋本義彦: 源通親(吉川弘文館人物叢書)附録「久我源氏中院流（こがげんじなかのいん）家領と通親」1992

Those are all academic sources, and every author calls 久我家 as Koga-ke. --1523 04:58, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Again, you go with the ad hominems. I did find one reference on the names for Koga/Kuga: "Japanese: ‘old river’; variously written, with one ancient variant of imperial descent pronounced Kuga; other alternate readings are Furukawa or Kogawa and are derived from a village named Koga in Shimōsa (now Chiba prefecture). The most common Koga name is mostly found in Kyūshū, and is descended from the Takeda family. The name is also found in the Ryūkyū Islands." It says the imperial variant is Kuga, not Koga. Every source I find has Kuga, from academic to non-academic. imperial78.

You demanded the academic sources, so we Japanese showed you the academic sources in Japanese, but again, you are ignoring academic sources we Japanese showed. This is absurd and unfair. You are trying to quibble about the point. If you are trying to be "academic", you have to respect the original texts first. You can talk about Japanese names, although you do not know Japanese. But your argument cannot be "academic", because you cannot access the original sources. I searched the National Diet Library in Tokyo for the books about 久我家, and I found every academic book about 久我家 was registered as Koga-ke, not Kuga-ke.

1. 通誠公記. 第1 / 久我通誠〔著〕 ; 今江広道,小沼修一校訂　久我, 通誠 (1660-1719) ∥コガ,ミチトモ
2. 日本農林統計読本 久我通武編 東京 葵出版社　1964　久我, 通武 (1910-) ∥コガ,ミチタツ
3. 通兄公記. 第6 / 〔久我〕通兄〔著〕 ; 今江廣道,平井誠二校訂 久我, 通兄 (1709-1761) ∥コガ,ミチエ

In short, the situation is so simple - The authors you mentioned are not the specialists in kazoku, so they made a mistake. --1523 03:28, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

When did they change their surname?

Imperial78, I am disappointed at your unsightly behavior. You still cling to Kuga - But sorry, we Japanese can't find any reliable sources support your theory. Sugiyama and Wakabayashi are not the specialists in kazoku, so their books are not reliable on this matter. If you claim the Koga family has officially changed the pronunciation of their surname, it is you who is responsible to prove your theory. So when did they change their surname? --1523 03:25, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

For you to claim that Sugiyama and Wakabayashi are not specialists in kazoku, you need a source to claim this or reviews of their work. I have included academic sources in English about kazoku. I have no source to back your Koga claim. All academic sources I find have the name as Kuga. For you to claim, every source which lists the name as Kuga is making a mistake is quite silly. I only found one non-academic yet reliable source (ancestry.com) which lists Koga as a non-noble variant of Kuga. This is why I am willing to put both names on, since at least that site makes the claim they are variants of the same name. Also please reframe from saying you are "disappointed in me". I am not here for your approval. I am here to keep the articles accurate. As well, the character 久 only has a Sino-Japanese reading of "ku" (jiu in Mandarin) and not "ko". http://www.buddhism-dict.net/cgi-bin/xpr-dealt.pl?4e.xml+id('c4e45') Imperial78

• About the reliability of the source you mentioned, one of the Japanese Wikipedians already argued down you, but again, you are ignoring what he said: "Above the Clouds by Takie Sugiyama Lebra in your source list is just mentioned about a modern actress Kuga Yoshiko (久我美子), so it is not a appropriate source for the name of the family in this article. (Wakabayashi, 1991) is also an unappropriate source because its main focus is not this family and seems to appear this family in just only one sentence (p.47). (Sansom, 1931), too. (p.362)".
• "I have no source to back your Koga claim"

I have repeatedly given you academic sources in Japanese. Even if you cannot access them, it is not my fault that you are ignorant of Japanese. Such an ignorant person cannot keep the articles accurate, that is why I said you have to learn Japanese from the very beginning.

• every source which lists the name as Kuga is making a mistake is quite silly

Indeed it is silly to misread kanji, there are lots of silly people all around the world, but it is not my fault. One of the Japanese noble families is still Koga, not Kuga, and I already showed the reliable sources to back my claim.

• "As well, the character 久 only has a Sino-Japanese reading of "ku" (jiu in Mandarin) and not "ko"

That is why I said your knowledge is superficial - In Japanese, kanji is prononounced quite irregularly, especially in proper nouns. For instance, 近衞 ought to be pronounced as Kon-ei literally, but that is pronounced Konoe actually. 冷泉 ought to be pronounced as Reisen literally, but that is pronounced Reizei actually. Your sources are all English, but we Japanese do not have to ask English sources, because this is about Japanese surnames, and we can access original sources. So I repeat what I already said; If you are trying to be "academic", you have to respect the original texts first. --1523 07:01, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

1523, it does not help your argument when all you do is throw out ad hominems. Regardless of what language the source is in, the scholar who wrote the article is knowledgable about the material. These also have sources. For example, in none of these sources, do the author make mistakes in other names, we don't see Konei or Reisen, although sometimes one sees Konoe and Konoye. So why would the scholars write Kuga, and not Koga? This is not because they are ignorant as you claim. As well, 久我 is only one family. 久我 is not a name that is from geography or occupation, all people with this name originally come from the same source. If you claim that commoners with 久我, then you must find a source which states how they got the name and from where because 久我 is only the name for the descendants of that kuge family. imperial78

• "in none of these sources, do the author make mistakes in other names"

Your argument is totally illogical, the reasons are the following;

1. You cannot judge whether the authors did mistakes in other Japanese names. If the authors did mistakes, you cannot notice it (as you did not on List_of_Kuge_families), because you cannot access the original sources.
2. Even if the authors did not mistakes in other names, it does not prove the authors' reliability on the pronunciation of 久我家. They can do mistake in 久我家 only.
3. Konoe and Reizei are famous as noble families, but Koga is not not. So it is not surprising that they did not mistakes on Konoe and Reizei. (But, how about Ikejiri, Ishino, Kanjuji, Kawahire, Kushizu, etc? I guess you had any references on that matter when you wrote the first edition of that article, but the authors of the books you referenced were wrong after all.)

• "all people with this name originally come from the same source"

No, they do not come from the same source. There is the 久我 family from the imperial family, but there is also the 久我 family from Fujiwara clan, there is also 久我 family from 久我国造 (Koga no kuni no miyatsuko), there is also 久我 family from 久我直 (Koga no atae). In Japan, sharing the same surname does not necessarily mean sharing the same ancestors. PLEASE DO NOT SPREAD FALSE THEORY.

• "久我 is not a name that is from geography or occupation"

Wrong again. 久我 IS a name that is from geography. As I explained, Koga is an obsolete word for "land" ("wasteland", "vacant land", more exactly) in Japanese. It is also written as 古賀, 古閑, 古河, 古川, 呉我, 久我, 高賀, 古家, 許我, 久賀, 久里, 五賀, 空閑, 小賀, and so on, and they are all from the place name. In Heian period, the emperor gave those vacant lands to the noble families for cultivation. So 久我 is not the only name for the descendants of that kuge family. (If your surname is Kuga and you have imagined yourself as imperial descendants, sorry, you are totally wrong.) --1523 00:58, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, Kuga is not my surname nor do I have any relatives with that name. You always include go for the ad hominem which does not support your argument. My argument is that every source in English on Japanese nobility lists the name as Kuga. As I do more research, I can get more sources. For you to claim, they are all wrong, is not enough. I am simply going by the sources on Japanese nobility and not one has it as Koga. Again, you make claims, but you need to quote your sources. Neither of us can claim the authors have made a mistake because neither of us are supposed to critique their works. We can only quote what is published. Wikipedia is about sources to back your claims. We cannot write personal research on this site. You write koga is an obsolete word for "land", OK quote this please from a source. Also, please explain how 久我 relates to geography as the component characters have nothing to do with land. You will need to explain everything. None of the noble families except Konoe may be called "famous" in the West. This source: www.unterstein.net/Toyoashihara-no-Chiaki-Nagaioaki-no-Mitsuho-no-Kuni/NobiliaireJapon.pdf has both Kuga and Koga. lol I don't think this is going to be resolved with any ease. imperial78

Here are the ACADEMIC sources

• "not one has it as Koga"

On the webpage of Mount Holyoke College, 久我通親 is listed as KOGA Michichika. This is the webpage of a college, so this source is academic. Indeed you can get some results by searching "Kuga Michichika", all those webpages are not academic.

• "My argument is that every source in English"

Again, you are trying to quibble about the point. The point is the reliability of your source. About that point, one of the Japanese Wikipedians already argued you down, but again, you are ignoring what he said: "Above the Clouds by Takie Sugiyama Lebra in your source list is just mentioned about a modern actress Kuga Yoshiko (久我美子), so it is not a appropriate source for the name of the family in this article. (Wakabayashi, 1991) is also an unappropriate source because its main focus is not this family and seems to appear this family in just only one sentence (p.47). (Sansom, 1931), too. (p.362)". Your argument is invalid as long as you keep ignoring those comments.

• "You write koga is an obsolete word for "land", OK quote this please from a source"

The source is pp564-565 of 新編　姓氏家系辞書（太田亮著、丹羽基二編、秋田書店刊、1974年）. This is an encyclopaedia by Ota Ryo and Niwa Motoji, two biggest authorities on the Japanese surnames. I quote; "コガ、クガはもと空閑のことで、平安時代の空閑の荒小地を勅旨によって朝廷に収めさせたり、貴族に賜与したりすることからおこった。従って、はじめは「何々の空閑」といったが、のち単に空閑が独立して名字になった。これらの空閑地は全国に多かったから、地名としてもかなり残っている。但し長い間にいろいろな字に当てられて書かれた。後閑（ゴカン・コウカ）・五箇（ゴカ）・五家（ゴカ）・古河（コガ）・玖珂（コガ・クガ）・小賀（コガ・オガ）・古賀（コガ）・古我（コガ）・久我（コガ・クガ）・久賀（コガ・クガ）等がこれである。" As a noble family, 久我 is listed on the entry of こ(Ko-), not く(Ku-), as the following; "久我（コガ）京師【村上源氏、中院流】顕房の子雅実の後である。清華の一にして一族は栄えた。尊卑分脈に「具平親王‐師房‐顕房‐雅実（中院流正統）久我祖、号久我太政大臣、其子顕通号久我大納言、其弟雅定‐雅通（号久我内大臣）‐通親‐通光（号後久我太政大臣）‐通忠‐通基‐通雄‐長通‐通相‐具通‐通宣‐清通」と見える。清通の後は「通博‐豊通‐通言‐晴通‐通堅‐敦通‐通世‐通前‐尭通‐広通‐通名‐通誠‐惟通‐通兄‐敏通‐信通‐通明‐建通‐通久」、元侯爵。家紋龍紋笹。" Therefore, it is quite obvious that KUGA is false as the surname of imperial descendants.

• "please explain how 久我 relates to geography as the component characters have nothing to do with land"

As I already explained, that is called ATEJI (当て字). If you cannot understand ATEJI, just study Japanese, or ask your Japanese professor, because this talk page is not the space for lecturing languages to ignorant people like you.--1523 06:30, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I found the article about Ateji on English Wikipedia - If you study Japanese, you may enrich your understanding. --1523 06:24, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Every academic source in Japanese lists this family as KOGA, not KUGA

I am not interested in talking with the triumphant people who pretend to know the stuff they cannot even read, but I consulted various academic sources, so, again, I verified 久我 the Murakami Genji is pronounced KOGA, not KUGA. KUGA is incorrect, so the title of this article should be KOGA (kuge) naturally, because Wikipedia is not the place for showing the inaccurate knowledge off.

1. 久我敏通 is written with furigana こが・としみち (KOGA Toshimichi) in pp.367 of 竹内誠・深井雅海編『日本近世人名事典』（吉川弘文館、2005年）.
2. The all members from 久我家 are written with furigana こが (KOGA) in pp.278-289 of 野島寿三郎編『公卿人名大事典』（日外アソシエーツ、1994年）.
3. 久我通久 is written with furigana こが・みちつね (KOGA Michitsune) in pp.77 of 小玉正任監修『幕末公家集成』（新人物往来社、1993年）.
4. 久我建通 is written with furigana こが・たけみち (KOGA Takemichi) in pp.393 of 日本歴史学会編『明治維新人名事典』（吉川弘文館、1981年）.
5. The all members from 久我家 are written with furigana こが (KOGA) in pp.167-168 of 『歴史人名よみかた辞典』（日外アソシエーツ、1989年）.
6. The all members from 久我家 are written with furigana こが (KOGA) in pp.565-568 of 下中邦彦編『日本人名大事典』第2巻（平凡社、1979年）.
7. 久我家 is written with furigana こがけ (KOGA-ke) in pp.356 of 日本史広辞典編集委員会編『日本史人物辞典』（山川出版社、2000年）. In this dictionary, the origin of the surname KOGA(久我) is explained clearly as the following; 「村上源氏の嫡流。清華家。家名は、のちに家祖と仰がれた平安後期の源雅実が久我（現、京都市伏見区）に別荘をもち、久我太政大臣と称されたことによる。」”The main family of Murakami-Genji. Seigake. The family name has its origin that Minamoto no Masazane, who was later considered as the originator of the KOGA family, had a villa in KOGA (today it belongs to Fushimi district, Kyoto City), and was called KOGA-DAIJO-DAIJIN.” DAIJO-DAIJIN means a kind of minister.
8. 久我具房, 久我長通, 久我通雄, 久我通親, 久我通久, 久我通光 appear in pp.654 of 朝日新聞社編『日本歴史人物事典』（朝日新聞社、1994年）, and they are all listed KOGA, not KUGA.
9. 久我通久, 久我通具, 久我通光 appear in pp.709-710 of 新潮社辞典編集部『新潮日本人名辞典』（新潮社、1991年）, and they are all listed KOGA, not KUGA.
10. The all members from 久我家 are written with furigana こが (KOGA) in pp.747-749 of 上田正昭・西澤潤一・平山郁夫・三浦朱門監修『講談社日本人名大辞典』（講談社、2001年）.
11. The present master of 久我家, 久我誠通, is listed as KOGA Tomomichi in pp.588 of 霞会館華族家系大成編輯委員会編纂『平成新修　旧華族家系大成』上巻（霞会館発行、吉川弘文館発売、1996年）. This book was published by Kasumi Kaikan, the official corporation of ex-kazoku, so this source is especially reliable.--1523 08:24, 23 August 2006 (UTC)