Talk:LGBT rights in Pakistan

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): NextFall.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 02:00, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Indian sources?

Some of the sources used in this article are extremely biased, and obvious enough, written by Indians. Small time articles used to create hate are used to back up claims that "Pakistanis have affairs with small boys"? This is ridiculous, and anyone with a brain should know that this goes against every law in Islam. Granted there might be a one off incident, but this doesnt belong here in this article. I would like the author to remove these ridiculous statements, or at least use half decent sources to back up these claims, and not some Indian conspiracy source. (most Indian newspapers are anti Pakistan, so please use some Western Sources) Thank you Unre4L 00:46, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Ghazni comes to mind...--D-Boy 11:47, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree that this article sounds tainted. For instance it mentions that male sex workers outnumber the female sex workers in the Pakistani red light districts. I've never been to Pakistan but I can't imagine them have even a yellow light district! I'm not knowledgeable in this field to comment but I'd suggest someone with knowledge does. Eternalsleeper 09:14, 29 October 2007 (UTC)--Eternalsleeper 09:14, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

All the citations now used in the article are from trusted sources like BBC World, Daily Telegraph and Guardian. Some from Pakistani sources as well. A few Indian citations ones that exist have companion citations leading to other sources mentioned above. This topic is controversial and I have done my best to bring it to the B-Class criteria in my editorial review of the article. Arun Reginald (talk · contribs) 18:18, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

LGBT project Comments

I've rated this article as C class for the LGBT project. While informative and well laid out, it need a thorough copyedit to move to a B in my opinion. I corrected 3 grammatical errors in the first 3 sentences. I currently reads as written by an editor with English as a (very good) second language. Eg: "supressed under wraps" is redundant - it should be one or the other or both with a conjunction --> "supressed, hence is kept under wraps". Even then "under wraps" sounds quite informal.

The language sometimes leaves ambiguity: eg: "If individual orientation and acceptance isn't enough, young boys in some cases are forced to delve into sexual activities with older men" - this sentence makes little sense. It is trying to say that young gay men are not self-accepting or isolated, hence become victimised by more experienced men?

To improve more, i suggest listing it under requested copyedits as a priority. How the other project missed the grammatical errors is beyond me. Good luck!Yobmod (talk) 08:23, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Google Searches

I am the one that originally added the google searches and I agree with the current version. To describe gay porn as "popular" is inaccurate. The society is oppressed and people want to know about things so they type it into google. The information should be given factually and I agree with the current version. Thereandnot (talk) 03:39, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Hina Jilani Speech

There was recently an excerpt added to that page which is from a speech by Hina Jilani, the quote was not specifically regarding civil rights or LGBT rights in Pakistan rather it was a general statement and thus taken out of context to use in this article. I will be removing that excerpt since it does not apply to this article. Sajjad Altaf (talk) 18:32, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Again, stop with your Ahmedinijad homophobic rhetoric. Read the article title and also how many times it mentions "sexual orientation and gender identity", which was what the panel discussion was about, not to mention she herself mentions it. Furthermore the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan supports LGBT as per sources also further provided Talk:Human Rights Commission of Pakistan.You have been unable to provide any source on this subject matter because you have no knowledge of it. This is a secular W:NPOV site so If you don't have any constructive feedback, you can take your extremist views of Islam to other sites that share your bigoted views. lilpiglet 19:15, 17 March 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lilpiglet (talk • contribs)

I did not disagree with the fact that she talks about "sexual orientation and gender identity". I am disagreeing with the fact that in that piece of text, she is not talking about Pakistan or LGBT rights in Pakistan. It was a general speech and it was not specific to Pakistan, she spoke about civil rights as other speakers spoke. This text does not go in this article but yes you can include this text in some other article which deals about UN Human Rights Commission but not in an article which is about Pakistan. Regardless of the situation of civil rights in Pakistan, this piece of text does not apply to rights in Pakistan otherwise you will be misquoting and misrepresenting Hina and that is dishonest. Please go find any of her speech where she speaks about civil rights or LGBT rights in Pakistan and include that in the article, i would not have any objection to that. My objection is about taking a piece of text out of her general speach and applying it to an article about Pakistan. Sajjad Altaf (talk) 19:28, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

How is it dishonest? This article is not about Government of Pakistan's LGBT but the entire of Pakistan; will cover LGBT community, social, political, governmental, any organization that is voicing human rights concern for or against LGBT human rights (or violations therefore). She supports LGBT rights, she was the Chairperson of the HRCP (that time)when she was addressing this - Pakistan is a country; as chairperson of leading human rights group in pakistan and discussing about EVERY country (that means IT INCLUDES HER OWN) and for that very reason she is mentioned within the article. I will not discuss this any further with you unless you provide a reliable source where she does not want this for Pakistan or the HRCP has different views or agenda than the one provided with reputable sources. Au contraire, provided with reliable sourcesthat justifies every claim I have made. For that reason, I have reverted your deletion of content that is justifiable to the page without tampering with the NPOV of the article, so if you have an issue with the quote you can take it up to the arbitration committee as you are providing point of view without reliable source. lilpiglet 20:14, 17 March 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lilpiglet (talk • contribs)

This text should not go in until it gets resolved at the talk page or gets resolved by a third party (arbitration) as you suggested or gets resolved by Hina Jilani herself. Sajjad Altaf (talk) 20:36, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

For more reading, check [1], [2]. OccultZone (Talk) 02:17, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

As Sajjad Altaf has been blocked for socking, and per the conversation here, I have undone my revert and re-added Lilpiglet's text as it is now uncontested. Thank you to both Lilpiglet and OccultZone for their patience and diligence. EvergreenFir (talk) 06:05, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

@EvergreenFir: thank you ... i have learned a great deal her: sometimes it's better to wage a war of attrition, metaphorically, than to feed into someone's destructively repetitive behaviour.

User:OccultZone thanks for the input and further providing another article about her stance on the situation. Reading the second article made me realize some things that I had not known and would be of great use :) Lilpiglet (talk) 08:18, 18 March 2014‎ (UTC)

LGBTI intro - edits

Lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender rights in Pakistan have in recent years seen some changes regarding both legal and social acceptance. In 2009, Transexual and transgender persons were legally recognized on matters pertaining to their choice of gender identity and also a third gender option on all government documents. Furthermore, it also protected them from discrimination and various forms of harassment. In 2010, sex reassignment surgery from a man to a woman was made legal by the Lahore High Court which had previously given permission for a female to become a male in 2008. However, Same-sex intercourse and adultery between consensual adults is still illegal although, the punishment is rarely enforced.

Criminal offence pertaining to same-sex intercourse date back to October 6, 1860, during the colonial rule of the British Raj. Written by Lord Macaulay, the Indian Penal Code 1860, made same-sex intercourse and adultery illegal under the Anglo-Saxon law of "Unnatural Offences", known as carnal knowledge. On August 14, 1947, the newly created, Dominion of Pakistan continued to use the penal code with a new name: Pakistan Penal Code (Act XLV of 1860), PPC.

Within the PPC, "Unnatural Offences" Article 377 states: "Whoever voluntarily has carnal intercourse against the order of nature with any man, woman or animal, shall be punished with imprisonment [...] for a term which shall not be less than two years nor more than ten years, and shall also be liable to fine".

Urban cities like Lahore, Karachi, Islamabad, and even Peshawar, have a large LGBT community. Social trends are also changing as growing number of individuals, especially those born to parents who "even if they have not been educated abroad, are usually university graduates" and have some sort of understanding about evolution, sexuality, or both, are increasingly coming out to their families and friends, as well as introducing them to their same-sex partner. Also, Human Rights Commission of Pakistan has taken an active role in the past few years to bring forth awareness as well as to seek LGBT rights across Pakistan.

Disapproval of LGBT largely stems from social conservatism, religion, illiteracy and patriarchal beliefs. While sex between homosexual partners is extremely accessible with it being a social norm to walk holding hands, walk with having arms around the waist, kissing on the face, and to cuddle with the same gender; social stigma, disapproval, and discrimination of homosexuality makes it difficult for the LGBT community to have steady relationships. The LGBT community is able to socialize, organize, date and even live together as couples, but usually discreetly. As a result of increasing liberalisation trends and increasing globalisation and social tolerance, public gay parties in Pakistan have been thriving for a number of years. Pakistan does not have civil rights laws to prohibit discrimination or harassment on the basis of real or perceived sexual orientation. Same-sex marriages and civil unions in Pakistan have no legal recognition. The LGBT community in Pakistan has not formally begun to campaign for LGBT-rights, but there is growing tolerance for social gatherings of gay men in the cities. In what was seen as a historic move in 2009, the Supreme Court of Pakistan ruled in favor of the civil rights of transsexual citizens. lilpiglet 22:53, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

(self note: Sources to consider: BBC Inside Gay Pakistan [3] and perhaps further info to corroborate the content on the program] lilpiglet 08:29, 18 March 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lilpiglet (talk • contribs)

In 2010, sex reassignment surgery from a man to a woman was made legal by the Lahore High Court which had previously given permission for a female to become a male in 2008[4],[5],[6]

References

Refs

• Editorial Violence against Transgenders, Daily Times March 16, 2022 Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 09:26, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

Less suitable phrases

I removed the following phrases, as they seemed rather pointed and non-neutral. I couldn't find that they were sourced. The objectional parts are shown in bold below:

• Discrimination and disapproval of the LGBT community, along with the associated social stigma, mostly stem from religious beliefs and make it difficult for LGBT people to have steady relationships.

• In addition, there is a growing number of individuals—especially those born to parents who have been educated in the developed world, who are usually university graduates and have some sort of understanding about evolution and sexuality—who are coming out to their friends and introducing them to their same-sex partner.

• The amendments included primitive forms of penalization like whipping of up to 100 lashes and death by stoning if married.

Where I could, I replaced with some neutral language; please feel free to improve or expand. AukusRuckus (talk) 05:11, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Capital punishment and infobox

Hi Lmharding and Eustatius Strijder: I would be interested in your further thoughts on how best to approach the ambiguity around the death penalty for homosexuality in Pakistan. I removed it from the infobox because I do not believe it's the best place to note a solely theoretical penalty. I am aware that Lmharding very much disagrees with that, and I would like to understand why they have this view.

If we can't reach consensus over this here, maybe we can ask for community opinions, too. What do you think? AukusRuckus (talk) 07:22, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Also, I'm not quite sure what you meant here in your ES, Lmharding: "...reverted penalties as they are noted as being vigilante and are noted alongside the other punishments..." Do you mean they are noted in a source as vigilante? Could you help, please? Thanks. AukusRuckus (talk) 07:22, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

If you want to get the most reliable sources you do not always take data from the ILGA, you can find other date too from the Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International for instance. The date of this LGBTI rights are basically combined from any reliable sources you could choose according to WP:RS, in practice it isn't solely the ILGA, it is a mixture of any reliable sources. Amnesty International, Human rights watch, ILGA, Equaldex, CNN, BBCNews and UK Gov are cornerstones to this data given on LGBTI rights references in the wikipedia. ILGA's data have not been updated yet, especially for instance Indonesia.

Our legal aid institute and a popular LGBT member have already agreed the data to be updated to the Arus Pelangi and finally to the ILGA, so we could include other things too that they haven't include in their state sponsored homophobia, such as discrimination protections (2015 Police circular letter on Hate speech) but it'll take a while for us to conduct a meeting first to then update the data to the Arus Pelangi and finally to the ILGA.

Regarding the issue of whether Pakistan provides the death penalty for homosexuality or not is actually ambiguous. The Human Rights Watch and Statista didn't count it a possibility but the ILGA and Amnesty International do. I believe its a possibility that the government authorities of Pakistan have incorporated this death penalty for homosexuality as its part of its legal system since the Hudood Ordinance does not explicitly refers to same-sex sexual activity. Pakistan was not counted as a possibility for the death penalty for same sex acts before 2014 ILGA report.

The Hudood ordinance explicitly says this "Section (5) Zina liable to hadd. (1) Zina is zina liable to hadd if- (a) it is committed by a man who is an adult and is not insane with a woman to whom he is not, and does not suspect himself to be married; or (b) it is committed by a woman who is an adult and is not insane with a man to whom she is not, and does not suspect herself to be, married. (2) Whoever is guilty of Zina liable to hadd shall, subject to the provisions of this Ordinance, - (a) if he or she is a muhsan, be stoned to death at a public place; or (b) if he or she is not muhsan, be punished, at a public place; with whipping numbering one hundred stripes. (3) No punishment under sub-section (2) shall be executed until it has been confirmed by the Court to which an appeal from the order of conviction lies; and if the punishment be of whipping; until it is confirmed and executed, the convict shall be dealt with in the same manner as if sentenced to simple imprisonment." It seems like it refers only to opposite sex couples, but a 1991 amendment to the Hudood Ordinance issues that sodomy was included in the Hudood Ordinance offenses. It is unknown if its provides the death penalty or not, as the Hanafi school prominent in Pakistan rules that homosexual acts are not liable to a hadd punishment and could even be legal under secular rulers. Eustatius Strijder (talk) 14:51, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for that great overview, @Eustatius Strijder. I agree with your conclusion that it is somewhat ambiguous if the Huddod's death penalty can be said to apply. In the end, I thought it best to include the United States State Department's view, and I quoted their report directly in the body of the article. So I went by that, rather than ILGA: Not that this contradicts ILGA, it's just that ILGA mentions the ordinances with a question over possible death penalty, but do not directly address enforcement, whereas the US State Dept's report does. It talks about the uncertainty of whether they even applied to same-sex couples, as they do (or did) to opposite-sex couples (just as you are saying), and also point out that, either way, there's never been a prosecution under the Hudood Ordinances for homosexuality, nor has there been any execution in modern times for it. They mention that Hudood Ordinaces have not been used at all since 1985! And I completely agree we should use any and all reliable sources that we can, not just ILGA. I will use whatever I can find that is good quality.

My main concern in this article—and many others—is the placing of some of these more complicated issues in the infobox. My view is that if it is not a currently-applied penalty, but is still relevant to discuss, it needs to be thoroughly written up in the appropriate section—not the infobox. To me, it can actually be misleading there, because you cannot explain the details. If it is not being enforced, it shouldn't be in that basic summary. Lmharding believes it should, though. Also, I strongly believe that other, non-legal "penalties"—like attacks and honour killings, for example—do not belong in the infobox. Only because that is not what the infoboxes are for, as I understand it, anyway. It gets messy, hard to read and clouds the main points, when so much material is squeezed in. And it's not accurate to call such things "penalties", either. They're crimes, whether perpetrated by the community or the police. They are not "penalties" as the term is normally understood, Well, those are my thoughts. What do you think about the infobox issue? I am still hoping to hear from LMH, as I want to understand what is behind their view, too.

The situation in Indonesia sounds like there is some encouraging progress on expanding rights. I wish all concerned continued success. AukusRuckus (talk) 14:01, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

References

For help

Respected Sir and Madam I'm a lesbian I need your help for security and Justice I'm in Lahore. Please contact with me I'm in truble Regards Simal Gill 0313-7792082 Sam Nawaab (talk) 19:04, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

Punishment

How and when did the penalty change from 3 years to life imprisonment 41.59.117.135 (talk) 05:57, 31 May 2023 (UTC)