Talk:Lašva Valley ethnic cleansing

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Content NOT NEUTRAL[edit]

article continuosly vandalized in order to keep only the muslim/bosniak version. In april 2010 Croatian President Josipovic, archbishop of Sarajevo, Vinko Puljic and muslim leader Mustafa Ceric visited the villages of Ahmici and Krizancevo Selo to pay tribute to BOTH victims (croatians and bosniaks) of the war.

16 april 1993 in Ahmici, Hvo soldeirs killed 116 bosniak civilians

28 december 1993 in Krizancevo selo, ArBih forces killed 15 croatian inviduals —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lu.bst (talk • contribs) 08:59, 12 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]


Fair use rationale for Image:UCK NLA.jpg[edit]

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BetacommandBot (talk) 11:34, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

anonymous complaint[edit]

This is a Bosniak version and talking only about Croatian atrocities. A single Army of BH atrocity was not mentioned. It is propaganda text without any objectivity and truth. One side story! Croatian text is completely different and shows places of Bosniak atrocities committed on Croatian civil population. At the end of 1993 Bosniak gain territory and HVO lost it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.203.132.25 (talk) 17:44, 30 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]


No word about Travnik, Bugojno? Is it just the coincidence that these towns were controlled by muslims and Croats were expelled before the events in Lašva valley that this article calls "ethnic cleansing"? Thank you british UN contigent. Your role in this war will not be forgotten. Especially those "Milano" projectiles that ended in HVO tanks. Surprisingly, muslim army hadn't had any of these projectiles and guess what? The english - did! How come?

You did your "hearts and minds" campaign and now I am watching how are you doing in your "hearts and minds" campaign with muslim community in England. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.132.19.117 (talk) 23:03, 31 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think these comments are silly. This article is the best I've read about Bosnian War. All of the sources are neutral acccording to WP:RS. This is not place for Croatian nationalist frustrations. Alan.Ford.Jn (talk) 09:40, 12 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"This article is the best I've read about Bosnian War" doesn't mean that it's explaining all the truth. Even if the sources are neutral, here have been clearly forgotten all the crimes made by the muslim counterpart. Usually a war is conducted between two parts and not only from "encircled frustraded croatian light armored forces" against "poor muslim unarmed civilians" as it seems from this article. I'm not even slavic so that I'm not interested in defending anyone there, but I found very disappointing that someone is trying to erase with all means parts of the truth. In this way this article will be simply not authorative. And it is also impossible to have a disxussion on it. Any comments are erased very quickly.... Lu.bst (talk) 08:13, 13 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This article is obviously related to the ethnic cleansing as a crime against humanity, not about the war in Lasva Valley in general. This specific case includes information related to the case. There are more than 10 convictions from international trials which confirms the course of the war crime ie ethnic cleansing. So your claim about poor muslim unarmed civilians is sick! I am not Slavic too, but shame on you and your nationalistic arguments. Judges from 50 countries participated in those trials, so if they determined the facts you don't like, that's just your problem. Alan.Ford.Jn (talk) 17:03, 13 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not to negate the ethnic cleansing at all (I'm speaking about NPOV). I'm looking for a neutral POV. Is it so difficult to admit that also muslim forces made their errors in the Lasva valley ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lu.bst (talk • contribs) 20:45, 13 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This article is not neutral, it can be read only Muslim suffering. Not mentioned none the suffering of Croats. Ethnic cleansing of Croats in Travnik, Massacre in Križančevo selo, Buhine kuće, Meline... there is no mention. No mention mujahideen (al qaeda), who were cruel. The number of Croats in Travnik fell by 50%, while the number of Muslims has increased.--Sokac121 (talk) 13:20, 2 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

“Camp, camp, camp…”[edit]

Why not using the most precise word — Concentration Camp?--177.32.134.198 (talk) 01:12, 21 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Name, scope, copyvio[edit]

Like most articles created or edited by the banned user The Dragon of Bosnia a.k.a. Grandy Grandy, this one is also mostly a cherry picked copy/paste, in this case from two ICTY judgements. The issues are similar to the previous state of the Croat-Bosniak War article (see talk page Talk:Croat–Bosniak War#June 1993 Kakanj, Travnik, Zenica). The part about Gornji Vakuf is exactly the same.

Copyvio Detector detected clear copyright violations regarding the following three links:

1. 94.3%

2. 81.0%

3. 93.2%

Both judgements used are the first instance ones, although the final verdicts are significantly different, especially in the case of Blaškić. The number of 2,000 killed is for all three nations during the war in the municipalities of Lašva Valley, not killed Bosniaks by the Croats. Also, there is no evidence that the image used in the article infobox are Bosniaks expelled by Croats. In fact, Travnik was a location of Bosniak refugees from Jajce after the VRS won the battle for the city. Travnik was taken by ARBiH forces only in early June 1993, there was no fighting there before.

The scope of the article currently covers only crimes against Bosniaks (addition of crimes against Croats was reverted, even though it covers areas of Lašva Valley), although both secondary sources and ICTY judgements also talk about the ethnic cleansing of Croats and crimes against them in the area of Lašva Valley.

  • "The Muslim offensives in the Lašva valley in spring 1993 were accompanied by ethnic cleansing." (Steven L. Burg, Paul S. Shoup: Ethnic Conflict and International Intervention: Crisis in Bosnia-Herzegovina, 1990-93)
  • "In turn, the Muslims took Travnik, most of the Novi Travnik municipality, Kakanj, Fojnica, and other Croat territory in Central Bosnia as well as Bugojno, Gornji Vakuf, Konjic, and Jablanica on the southern periphery. In the process more than 100,000 Bosnian Croats were expelled from their homes." (Shrader, Charles R.: The Muslim-Croat Civil War in Central Bosnia: A Military History, 1992–1994, p. 123)
  • "A week after the clash at Novi Travnik the HVO was driven out of Kakanj,Travnik and Kraljeva Sutjeska, forcing about 60,000 Bosnian Croats to flee towards the already overcrowded Adriatic cities." (Tanner, Marcus (2001). Croatia: A Nation Forged in War, p. 290)

Some of the places mentioned in the article are not a part of the Lašva Valley, like Zenica, Gornji Vakuf, and Kiseljak, and Zenica shelling is nowhere called a massacre by the ICTY. Regarding the "Vitez massacre" (also not called that way in the judgement), the Appeals Chamber in the Kordić and Čerkez case noted that "The Trial Chamber did not make an explicit finding that the civilian population or civilians were targeted in Vitez/Stari Vitez in April 1993, i.e., the time foreseen in the Indictment. The Trial Chamber accepted the Prosecution’s case that there was a coordinated offensive in the area of Vitez on 16 April 1993, which took the ABiH by surprise646 and, rejecting the defence case, made a clear finding that the evidence pointed to “organized HVO attacks” in the area". The conclusion of the Appeals Chamber was:

"Despite discriminatory actions against the Muslim community in Vitez municipality at the time, the Trial Chamber had no direct evidence that the HVO attack of 16 April 1993 in Vitez/Stari Vitez was directed at civilians. The Appeals Chamber therefore considers that no reasonable trier of fact could have concluded that the HVO attack was directed at civilians.674 In making this conclusion the Appeals Chamber has, in particular, given due consideration to the existence of an armed conflict between Croats and Muslims in the area, the number of legitimate military objectives present in Vitez/Stari Vitez, and the resistance offered by Muslim forces, as well as the absence of evidence of civilian victims in April 1993."

"Therefore, the Trial Chamber’s finding that the war crime of unlawful attack on civilians, under Article 3 of the Statute, Count 3 (Kordić) and Count 5 (Čerkez), is established with respect to Vitez/Stari Vitez, must be reversed." ... "In light of the above, the Appeals Chamber is of the view that no reasonable trier of fact could have concluded that civilian objects were unlawfully targeted in Stari Vitez."

I'm proposing a change of the scope of the article to cover all events of the war in the area and renaming the article to "Battle of Lašva Valley". Tzowu (talk) 19:59, 7 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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