Talk:Lady Frere
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Requested move 1 January 2022[edit]
- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: moved. I note that this article was originally created at Lady Frere, but was moved to Cacadu by cut-and-paste instead of moving, so I will merge the histories back together as per WP:CUTPASTE. -- Aervanath (talk) 03:45, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
Cacadu → Lady Frere – The official name has changed to "Cacadu", but the common name does not appear to have followed. Ngrams shows that "Lady Frere" continues to be the common name, while a search of recent news articles suggests that while both are in use, "Lady Frere" continues to the more common form of reference, including in international media such as CNN, as well as domestic media such as SABC News and The South African. BilledMammal (talk) 05:57, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
- Support per WP:COMMONNAME. Rreagan007 (talk) 19:29, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME Let's go through this point by point. Ngrams are weaker than proper sources and shouldn't be used as the main argument when reliable English-language sources exist. I have never heard of The South African, are they reliable and where are they based? Browsing the website and looking it up wasn't much help. The CNN article does use Lady Frere but only briefly. Could have easily been a mistake. There are more consistent sources from South Africa. The only source in your SABC article is a tweet from the police. In fact, the article you linked does more to support changing Port Elizabeth to Gqeberha. I assume that because you linked that article as evidence, you support the moving of Port Elizabeth as well? Can't be a good source in one instance and not in another.
- Took me a few seconds to find all of these results that prominently feature the name "Cacadu"
- How did you miss these when looking up the city name? I found them on my first search. Are you using something other than google? It might be messing with your search results. Desertambition (talk) 23:14, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
- As I said, there is some use of "Cacadu" in recent news results, but the common name is "Lady Frere". And I don't believe the usage in CNN was a mistake; there are no other CNN articles about the location since the change, but the BBC also uses "Lady Frere".
- However, if you need more systematic evidence, I looked into JSTOR results for the two since 2020. There are nine relevant results for "Lady Frere", and just two relevant results for "Cacadu", which seems quite conclusive to me. BilledMammal (talk) 01:10, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
- a total of 11 hits is hardly enough to justify a common name, a more systematic review of geographic RS' is needed to justify a WP:WIAN—blindlynx 01:26, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
- also bearing WP:MPN in mind the modern official name should be used if there isn't a clear widely used common name—blindlynx 01:28, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
- I expanded my search on JSTOR to 2017, when the name was changed; seventeen relevant results for "Lady Frere", and three for "Cacadu". I think in conjunction with ngrams that this is sufficient to establish the WP:COMMONNAME. I would also note that I don't read WP:MPN that way; I would read it as supporting reverting the article to "Lady Frere", as
per Wikipedia's naming policy, our choice of name does not automatically follow the official or local form, but depends on that change having become predominant in common global usage
, and it is both clear that the common name prior to 2017 was "Lady Frere", and that the change to "Cacadu" has not become predominant in common global usage. BilledMammal (talk) 01:47, 2 January 2022 (UTC)- It has already been discussed extensively that ngrams are only really useful when there aren't any English language sources. I have provided multiple reputable English language sources. Why would you go back when trying to determine the common name? We are looking for the current common name. You also have not said what The South African is and if it is a reputable source or not. All you said was "Lady Frere" got a few JSTOR hits. That tells us nothing. That's not a reputable English language source which is what we are prioritizing here. Did you read the articles? They are using the name. Desertambition (talk) 03:45, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
- If there are ngrams, then there are by definition English language sources, and JSTOR is a group of reliable English-language sources which avoids the issue of cherry-picking sources. However, I understand that we are going to disagree on this, so I will step back now and let other editors provide their thoughts. BilledMammal (talk) 04:10, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
- It has already been discussed extensively that ngrams are only really useful when there aren't any English language sources. I have provided multiple reputable English language sources. Why would you go back when trying to determine the common name? We are looking for the current common name. You also have not said what The South African is and if it is a reputable source or not. All you said was "Lady Frere" got a few JSTOR hits. That tells us nothing. That's not a reputable English language source which is what we are prioritizing here. Did you read the articles? They are using the name. Desertambition (talk) 03:45, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
- I expanded my search on JSTOR to 2017, when the name was changed; seventeen relevant results for "Lady Frere", and three for "Cacadu". I think in conjunction with ngrams that this is sufficient to establish the WP:COMMONNAME. I would also note that I don't read WP:MPN that way; I would read it as supporting reverting the article to "Lady Frere", as
- also bearing WP:MPN in mind the modern official name should be used if there isn't a clear widely used common name—blindlynx 01:28, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
- a total of 11 hits is hardly enough to justify a common name, a more systematic review of geographic RS' is needed to justify a WP:WIAN—blindlynx 01:26, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
- Support Common name does appear to be Lady Frere per BilledMamal. --Spekkios (talk) 02:16, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
Requested move 31 March 2022[edit]
- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) ~StyyxTalk? 23:12, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
Lady Frere → Cacadu – Town has been renamed since 2016 and reliable sources regularly use the current name.
Municipal offices in Cacadu robbed - 23 Mar 2022
Police arrest four over 'village of death' murders - 23 Mar 2022
Eastern Cape woman raped and killed in Cacadu - 11 Nov 2021
Cacadu author making waves with first book 16 Dec 2021
Mhlanga residents in Cacadu gifted with an Information and Communication Technology Centre 22 Mar 2022
'We need help, this must stop' – community leader pleads as murders continue in Cacadu village 12 May 2021
Seven men killed in Cacadu 21 Apr 2021
These are a diverse range of sources from multiple news outlets. Dates are included to show consistent and recent usage. Desertambition (talk) 22:18, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose, per my arguments at #Requested move 1 January 2022 - nothing has changed in the three months since that move request. BilledMammal (talk) 23:55, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose per my comments in the previous RM discussion. The current title is the common name. Rreagan007 (talk) 01:39, 1 April 2022 (UTC)