Talk:Lancaster County, Pennsylvania/Archive 1

It seems to me that references to contiguous geographical areas are usually given from the perspective of the place that the article is about. Saying that this county is bounded in the east by Chester County, or that it is west of Chester County amounts to the same thing, but the former is from the perspective of a person in Lancaster County looking out. Eclecticology

I'll be sure to do that in the future then! -- Ram-Man

Hello all, I just did my first Wiki-edit. I added some information on the law and government of Lancaster County and added the section on the County's politics. Any comments are appreciated! -- Zinnlos

Excellent, Keep up the good work, and do keep contributing. Scott 16:32:52, 2005-08-26 (UTC)

buggy image

The horse and buggy in the image on this site is not a Lancaster County Amish buggy. Lancaster Amish buggies are grey, they are not black. Also, Lancaster Amish buggies don't angle in on the sides to the buggy box like in this picture Stettlerj

I'm so glad you are here, and familiar with the Amish, Lancaster county. Please help these pages out and pa. dutch too. Thanks,

PS: Do you know what a distlefink is?

Scott 22:00, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

distlefink

A distlefink is a goldfinch. By the way, if you'se want to post your oppositions or support for making a space to allow for the moving of the PA Dutch encyclopedia to pdc.wikipedia.org post your opinion at Meta Wiki Requests for new languages: PA German - Stettlerj 00:37, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

1) Is a goldfinch a bird? 2) I like the idea of Pennsylvania dutch as in "people" of Lancaster, Berks and central Pa. of which the Amish speak German, Woosh! That was along one, LOL, Not sure if you understand that Scott 00:43, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Floyd Landis

Lancaster County's own Floyd Landis seems to be doing pretty well in the Tour de France. He is listed as being from Farmersville. Any idea what township that's in? It's not listed anywhere. I'm from the Pittsburgh area, and have only been through Lanc. Co. twice. --Coryma 22:00, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Looks like West Earl Township. Here's a good map of the county with villages: [1] and here's the village on topozone [2] Ruhrfisch 14:52, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Today's Politics

I reverted the Today's Politics section to the changes I had had before. To follow encyclopedia standards, I believe it is more proper to use the journalistic terms pro-abortion rights and anti-abortion rights, rather than simply pro-life and pro-abortion. The latter terms smack of political bias, as someone who supports abortion rights is not necessarily pro-abortion. For the later example, I have kept the common terms of pro-life and pro-choice for clarity and easy reading.

Aure1ius9 05:25, 18 August 2006 (UTC)Aure1ius9

August 18, 2006 Reversion

I reverted the version by User:ClairSamoht as it introduced several errors, removed at least one reference, and did not follow the US Counties project syle guidelines. "County seat" is the standard U.S. term (not "local seat of government") and there is a standard Geographic Reference there that was removed. The Amish are part of the Pennsylvania Dutch, but not all of it (see that article). Lancaster County is part of the Pennsylvania Dutch region, not the entire region as implied before reversion. Please link to William Penn, not an unlinked "Mr. Penn". Please use Template:cite web for web based references. Thanks, Ruhrfisch 02:38, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

What were the "several errors" you claim I introduced? I had citations for *everything*.

Lancaster County, Pennslyvania is, despite what you might surmise from the name, a county in the U.S. state of (duh!) Pennsylvania. Known locally (but apparently nowhere else, which is why we mention it here) as the Garden Spot of America, it is located in what locals call the south-central portion of Pennsylvania (even though there are 10 counties along Pennsylvania's southernmost border, and only Chester is further east) in the Susquehanna Valley (although the central portion of the county is in the Conestoga Valley.) In 2000 the U.S. Census found (the were others, hiding?) 470,658 inhabitants in the county and as of 2005, the population is estimated at 476,155.[1] (<- Note the footnote. We don't believe in new-fangled gimmicks like citations here in rustic Lancaster County, but we gave in this one time.) The county seat of the county of Lancaster County is the city of Lancaster⁶. (See what we mean about citations? That superscript 6 leads you somewhere strange that has nothing to do with the city of Lancaster, or county seats. Take our advice and ban the citation. It's evil. Put one of those hex signs, the kind sold in gift shops here and never seen anywhere else, over your computer to protect you from them.)

The area is most famous for its rich and fertile farmland (when most people see rich loam, "Lancaster County" springs to mind). It is the historic ancestral home of the Amish in the United States; the Amish live elsewhere these days, and those arriving on bus tours are greeted by slackers in costumes who couldn't get jobs playing Mickey Mouse or Goofy at Disney World. Lancaster County is part of the Pennsylvania Dutch region and tourism is a major industry. The landscape of Lancaster County is mostly flat, with rolling hills, which lends itself to farming, as flat landscapes without rolling hills are difficult to farm. The farmland of Lancaster County is considered to be among the most fertile non-irrigated farmland in the world, which oddly enough, seems to be less important to farming than picturesque rolling hills. Cash value crops include tobacco ($12 million annually), soybeans (grains including corn, and oilseeds, $18 million annually), and maize (value of admissions to maize not published). There are a large number of dairy and chicken farms as well, although with only $266 million annually in dairy sales and $90 million in beef, and $258 annually in eggs and poultry sales, they're hardly worth mentioning as an afterthought, are they? We're ignoring $88 million in swine production and $34 million in nursery products in order to feature $18 million in all grains, combined, after all.

God bless Wikipedia. With great effort, you may maintain this article as "start-class" forever. ClairSamoht 03:18, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

• • Here's a possibly familiar quotation: "Please note: If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly or redistributed by others, do not submit it."

As to your version you wrote:

Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, located in the Susquehanna Valley is known as the Garden Spot of America. The local seat of government is the city of Lancaster. There are an estimated 490,562 residents, as of 2005.[1]

• Where is the citation for "Garden Spot of America"? Where is the citation for Lancaster being the county seat? (you removed it) (P.S. you did not mention the Conestoga valley either). I give the 2000 Census result because it is agreed upon and an actual count (flawed as it may be). My census ref and your census ref for the 2005 estimates differ by about 14,000 residents (which I thought was an error, sorry). Agree that my 'found' is a poor word choice.

Lancaster County is known as the Pennsylvania Dutch region, as Pennsylvania Dutch is a misnomer for the local Amish population. When immigrating to the United States, they were attracted by the religious freedom offered by Mr. Penn, and the rich soil and mild climate of the area. The county is a popular tourist destination, not in small part due to the many plain sect residents of the county.[2]

• When you write "Lancaster County is known as the Pennsylvania Dutch region" that implies the entire region is in the county. It is not. Please see the article Pennsylvania Dutch to realize that the region is larger than Lancaster Co. and the term applies to more than just the Amish (two errors). As for citing everything, I searched your reference 2 [3] and it makes no mention of "Mr. Penn" or "religious freedom" or even "rich soil" or "mild climate".

The landscape of Lancaster County is mostly flat, with rolling hills, and with some of the most fertile non-irrigated soil in the world, lends itself well to farming. Milk, beef, chickens and eggs are the major agricultural thrusts, but crops of hay, corn, wheat, tobacco, and vegetables are also grown.[3]

The ref is great. It says the county "contains some of the most productive farmland in the United States", but makes no comparison to the whole world and makes no mention of irrigation or lack thereof. You did not cite everything (and if this article ever gets to FA candidate status, then "some of the most fertile non-irrigated soil in the world" will have to be backed up). I would use "products" instread of "thrusts", but that is style. :-)

Bottom line - I knew the 2005 population estimate was way off (but did not realize it was also from the US Census) and found two errors in what constitutes the PA Dutch region and who are the PA Dutch, plus the goofy (and unlinked) "Mr. Penn", so I reverted. I then went back and fixed the formatting ( to get rid of the big blank space at top) and tried to make some other small changes. If you read the WikiProject U.S. Counties style guide it gives the first sentence. The use of cite web (and cite book, etc.) is at least highly recommended (to help fix links in the future if they go dead). Nothing personal, you obviously know a lot about the county, but this is a collaborative effort and I did try to explain my reversion. We should both just devote this much effort to making the article better. Take care, Ruhrfisch 04:24, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

• • I put much of your material back in. Please correct my errors (if any) and excuse them. Have a good weekend, Ruhrfisch 04:43, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the kind wishes. I'd rather hash out things here first, rather than burden the VCS with a jillion micro-edits of a rather large article, though.

It seems relevant to have the current population. Decennial census numbers are NOT without controversy. They use a methodology mandated in 1789, and experts at the census bureau argue that their other numbers are more accurate. The census bureau doesn't really have two figures for Lancaster County's current population. Your lower number is for a *subset* of the community used for demographic analysis. "The 2005 American Community Survey universe is limited to the household population and excludes the population living in institutions, college dormitories, and other group quarters." The higher number - the number you knew was way off - is the correct current population.

Wikipedia:WikiProject U.S. counties's suggested start is to have "Lancaster County, Pennsylvania is a county in the U.S. state of Pennsylvania." followed by one paragraph. You omit the first Pennsylvania, and add more sentences, before adding multiple paragraphs. Of course, using U.S. state in that sentence before using "United States (U.S.)" in the article is a violation of the Manual of Style, so maybe it's not such a good idea to follow that recommendation blindly. In fact, the project page says the same thing: "These are only suggestions, things to give you focus and to get you going, and you shouldn't feel obligated in the least to follow them."

That superscript 6, linking to Geographic_references, is attached to your statement that the Lancaster county county seat is the city of Lancaster. Why? There is nothing in that article about City of Lancaster, nor, for that matter, about county seats in general, or about the Lancaster county county seat.

The word Amish means "A very conservative Christian group which broke away from the larger Anabaptist movement in the Alsace region in France during the late 17th century." which has now splintered into the many plain sects. It does not specify the "Old Order Amish", the Beachy, the Peachy, or any other single group. Nobody feels gypped when they buy an Amish quilt and later find out it was made by an Old Order Mennonite quilter; they consider that to be part of the Amish overall.

When I wrote that "Lancaster County is known as the Pennsylvania Dutch region", I implied that ALL of Lancaster County is known as the Pennsylvania Dutch region. You argue that Lancaster County is only part of the region, but in fact, the region where Pennsylvania Dutch culture exists is shrinking. You don't find significant populations living the life and speaking the language in neighboring counties, or even in Manheim, Willow Street, or Mount Joy. Over in Chester County, the Chamber of Commerce site touts their proximity to Lancaster County's Amish farms!

Tulare County, California and Fresno County, California far outstrip Lancaster County in crop production. The desert soil has lots of micronutrients and tilth, and they have lots of sunshine, so they add fertilizer and water. It's really hydroponics, not farming. And, of course, their counties are huge. Tulare County is twice the size of the state of Delaware, and Fresno County is 25% bigger than Tulare County. And they produce year-around, while Lancaster County experiences winter. But it's extremely difficult to find statistics comparing Lancaster County soil, rather than production, to other soils. I can find an expert saying overfertility of Lancaster County soils is a problem... I could use some help finding a citation, one that's a credible source instead of a cheering section for Lancaster County.

I don't see how Web Cite helps fix dead links. Please convince me. Seems to me that if they're dead, they're dead, and the best you can do is check out the Wayback Machine to see if there's an archived copy. Web cite is difficult to teach new editors, which means that when they add material to the page, it gets added with no citation at all. Footnoting has a much simple syntax that editors can use from memory, instead of having a second browser tab open to the documentation, in order to use. And WC looks dorky in the footnotes to an article. What is it that I'm not seeing? ClairSamoht 16:22, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

• First off, you clearly know much more about Lancaster County than I. I reverted your edit originally, then added most of it back. I did not originally write almost any of what you are asking about - I just reverted (I did make the County map with cities, boroughs, Twps and CDPs and the School District map and made some other minor edits on the article).

• I think having both Census figures (2000, your 2005) is good - it allows one to see growth and looking at every decade counted by the same method (however disputed that method may be). I would like to add the decade by decade census population figures to each PA article, and will remove my less accurate 2005 figure.

• I agree that the WikiProject US Counties guidelines "...are only suggestions, things to give you focus and to get you going, and you shouldn't feel obligated in the least to follow them." I am a member of that project (and the Pennsylvania Project - do you want to join?) and so try to use that as a least a start. I do think that articles should clearly identify where something is early on. Having lived in Germany for a few years, not everyone is clear on what all the US States are, so I always try to put US State or United States into articles.

• Superscript 6 is not mine but is on alomst every US county article - it used to link to a more specific reference / list of all US county seats. I will ask Ram-Man (who added this in many articles but not this one) about fixing the link.

• As for your definition of Amish (see [4] for what I think of, it is not Mennonite) and your geographical limits on PA Dutch country, let's agree to disagree. I still think most readers would not understand your version the way you do, which is why I changed it. I also think that the article needs a historical perspective here - PA Dutch at one point in time was a much broader base of speakers and larger geographical area. The article should deal with the history as well as the current state. It is hard to do this in one sentence in the intro though ;-) I always thin the article should be done and then go back and rewrite the lead section.

• I will look for farming refs as I am able. I found a book (Garden Spot, from 2002 [5]) that references "Garden Spot of America" and may address this too (have not read it yet).

• Cite web is not essential. Adding more information to refs is - the more info there is (at least date cited and the full title) helps as things change. For example, my Census ref until recently was giving 2004 population estimates, now the same link gives 2005. By giving the access date it helps to track down specifics on info found online. Same thing for titles. Web cite just reminds me of all the things I should include in my refs. Again if this is to be a Featerued Article someday (and I hope it is) this level of detail in refs will be required.

• I think the points raised here should all be sections of the Lancaster County article (plus I would add urbanization). Ruhrfisch 03:17, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

How about we put the *current* population in the intro, and put your decade-by-decade chart down lower? I don't know that decade-by-decade is useful everywhere, but Lancaster County's population is exploding, while the rest of the state is staying pretty static, and that's significant.

I congratulate you on the school district map. I was looking for that information online before (for other purposes), and couldn't find it anywhere. I'm intrigued by cartography, and impressed by your ability. (Actually, that's understating it; I'd even be impressed by someone with much less ability.)

I've been invited to join a number of projects, and I'll pass on this one, too. I'd join the Verifiability Project, if there was one, or maybe it oughta be called the Skeptics project. When I see a smaller page that is horribly unsourced, I tend to rewrite it. When I see a larger page that I find interesting and valuable, I tend to grab one section or two and bring it up to snuff, adding citations left and right, rewriting it as necessary so that the article and the source agree.

In many cases, other people who've been working on the article will start upgrading the rest of the article, and that pleases me; I'm really not trying to "take over" other peoples' pet projects (although my sarcasm on talk pages gets excessive at times, as does an unfortunate tendency to get cute in articles, as with that reference to Mr. Penn.) Instead, I'm trying to point out to them that they can tell the story they think ought to be told - as long as they can back up what they say. When readers can click on a footnote, follow a link to a source, and see that the article is true about the first three things they question, they figure the rest of the page is trustworthy, too.

Sorta like the restaurant manager, whose strategy is to make sure his waitresses get big tips, because people who leave big tips are happy customers who will recommend the place to their friends. I want WikiPedia editors to be highly respected. ::grin:: ClairSamoht 04:05, 20 August 2006 (UTC)