Talk:Liam Neeson/Archive 5

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Irish citizenship

The source clearly states "Neeson is entitled to both Irish and British citizenship" The claiming of a passport does not equal citizenship. The United States for example has between 75% and 90% depending on the source, of its citizens not holding a passport, yet there is no claim that they are not US citizens. Neeson being born pre-2005 on the island of Ireland is entitled to hold an Irish passport, how he personally identifies, and if he claims the book which allows him in and out of international border check points does not negate the fact he is an Irish citizen. If the Irish citizenship requires a source, then equally the British citizenship needs sourcing in the same way.

There appears to be a lack of understanding of how Northern Ireland works in terms of citizenship. People born on the island of Ireland pre-Twenty-seventh Amendment of the Constitution of Ireland and changes to Irish statutes coming in to force on 1 January 2005 are entitled to and can choose a British passport, an Irish passport or Both. Simpy not claiming one of the two passports does not means they are not legally a British citizen and an Irish citizen. If Neeson has formally renounced his Irish citizenship then he would not be an Irish citizen. In the same way as if he had renounced his British citizenship he would not be a British citizen. There need be evidence of renunciation of Irish citizenship for Neeson not to be listed as an Irish citizen as at the time of his birth Neeson was automatically an Irish citizen. This is similar to the issues surrounding 2017–18 Australian parliamentary eligibility crisis, simply not claiming a passport or having no knowledge of the entitlement to hold a passport does not negate holding of citizenship. WTKitty (talk) 08:03, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

The above is now moot due to the addition of a second source confirming the birth place of Neeson's mother. She was born in the Republic of Ireland, and Neeson is automatically an Irish citizen and not merely entitled to being an Irish citizen. Claiming an Irish passport is a non-issue. WTKitty (talk) 09:24, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

I have reverted the edit as it constitutes synthesis. In addition there are number of problems with your assertion that he gained citizenship through his mother. Primaraly, citzenship by desent in 1952 was only aquired through the father. This was not remedied until 1986. You also seem to misunderstand the situation slightly. As laid out at the wiki article he is "entitled to be an Irish citizen if born in Northern Ireland and not automatically an Irish citizen". Under brish law anyone born in the UK is automaticaly a citizen at birth. Eckerslike (talk) 09:51, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

This official website states as follows regarding Irish citizenship

If either of your parents was an Irish citizen who was born in Ireland, then you are automatically an Irish citizen, irrespective of your place of birth. If you are an Irish citizen, you can apply for an Irish passport. You do not need an Irish passport in order to be an Irish citizen but having an Irish passport is evidence that you are an Irish citizen.

This is clear cut Neeson's mother was born in Ireland is an Irish citizen and confers automatic citizenship on Neeson. The wording intentionally states parent not mother or father. The act of parliament also makes no distinction father only it states both Mother and father. See this link the relevant section is as follows

6.—(1) Every person born in Ireland is an Irish citizen from birth.

.

The Wikipedia article alone cannot be taken to be reliable, the source it is based is what is reliable, in this case it appears the wikipeida article referred to is flat-out wrong as it currently stands.WTKitty (talk) 13:18, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

WTKitty, go back through the archives and you'll find that there have been a number of different variations of this argument (nationality/citizenship) over the years – adding the citizenship without allowing the discussion to fully take place certainly isn't the way to go about it. 4TheWynne^{(talk)(contribs)} 13:33, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

Here is a discussion, I added a first source it was edited so I added another this was reverted and now there is this discussion going on. I am not sure what is meant by

adding the citizenship without allowing the discussion to fully take place certainly isn't the way to go about it

Whatever happened to being bold and having a discussion when that bold editing is disputed. Honestly. This is exactly what WP:BRD states should be happening. Be bold, get reverted or disputed and discuss. Not sure there is any deviation from that one iota. I would also like to point out the original tag was placed without a discussion being initiated which is unhelpful and unconstructive. I have begun this discussion not the person who placed the disputed tag. The system works with edit first not discuss first. No editing would ever get done under that system as some articles have little to no editing over the course of years from more than one editor. WTKitty (talk) 14:16, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

It appears clear that sources have been provided showing Neeson has not renounced his Irish citizenship and is an automatic Irish citizen. The lack of input and continued blocking of adding this sourced information is holding back constructive editing and constructive additions to the article. I cannot fathom why this is being blocked here. WTKitty (talk) 07:51, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

I'm not seeing any sources that state that he has not renounced his Irish citizenship. To avoid WP:OR, it should be omitted until we have a definite source saying what his citizenship is. There's nothing to stop you making constructive editing and constructive additions to the other 99.999% of the article. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 09:02, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

The article makes no sense. A plethora of evidence to suggest that Liam is Irish has been presented here, yet edits that rectify this are instantly reverted. Furthermore, the page's infobox even states his nationality is Irish, yet edits to state the very same information in the opening line of the article are reverted. Why is this so? Mr Serious Guy (talk) 20:24, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

A plethora of original research and synthesis has been presented. If you have reliable sources, now... Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 12:24, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

You didn't answer my question. --Mr Serious Guy (talk) 14:26, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

Mr Serious Guy, you said "the page's infobox even states his nationality is Irish" Where is that? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:49, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

Martinevans123, it did at the time (though it shouldn't have), and has since been removed again. 4TheWynne^{(talk)(contribs)} 23:41, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

I've now found an article that proves Neeson is an Irish citizen. It's an archived press article from a former fansite (http://web.archive.org/web/20070711002214/http://www.liamneeson-fansite.com/main.htm). It's under 'press' and 'Liam Neeson's private galaxy' in the former magazine 'George' - June 1999. Lloyd Grove (writer). There's some definitive evidence, so now can we change the opening paragraph? --Mr Serious Guy (talk) 01:09, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

Are you actually being serious, Mr Serious Guy? Sorry, but I can't help but make light of the situation, as you can't possibly think that one article added to a fansite (in which Neeson says, "I'm just a big Irish hick"), "proves Neeson is an Irish citizen" and is just going to change everything? 4TheWynne^{(talk)(contribs)} 04:24, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

Sources don't normally "prove" anything, they just support one claim or another. But I must admit that that is one of the weakest sources I have seen in support of this claim. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:06, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

It’s an extract from a magazine preserved on a fan site where Liam states ‘I’m an Irish citizen’, can you explain how this is weak? It’s from a very well-established magazine. —-Mr Serious Guy (talk) 14:38, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

Perhaps you could explicitly spell out the details of the magazine here, with the page number? Original copies must still exist? Not that even "well-established magazines" don't occasionally get things wrong, and not that famous celebrities don't sometimes say things that are incorrect or which later change. I'd still argue that printed sources don't necessarily "prove" things to be true facts (and nor do we require them to). Martinevans123 (talk) 14:51, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

There's an article which spells out the details of the magazine - George_(magazine). And surely the majority of information included in Neeson's article could potentially be something that he 'got wrong'? --Mr Serious Guy (talk) 16:05, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

I don't think we'll find Neeson mentioned at George (magazine), will we? I meant the edition number, date and page number(s) as well as just the title. Perhaps also author? And no, I don't think that the "majority of information included in Neeson's article could potentially be something that he 'got wrong'", as it's not sourced to direct quotes from interview sources. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:21, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

Certainly, it's issue 46 of George Magazine, November 1999, the article was written by Lloyd George. The title is 'Liam Neeson's Private Galaxy', and I'm unsure of the page number. --Mr Serious Guy (talk) 16:32, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

Liam Neeson is an Irish and American citizen. He is not a British citizen. People in Northern Ireland get to choose Irish or British passports. He has an Irish passport. 78.16.34.13 (talk) 02:58, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

That's a gross oversimplification and misunderstanding of the situation. People born on Northern Ireland are born British (by virtue of being born on the UK) and have the choice of taking up Irish citizenship. If the parents have Irish citizenship then that can happen at birth depending on the circumstances, otherwise it can happen later in life, but it's not a birth choice and taking Irish citizenship doesn't remove the British citizenship. Now there's self identification and citizenship which are actually two completely different things. Canterbury Tail talk 11:38, 29 July 2018 (UTC)

He has Irish citizenship, as stated in Issue 46 of George Magazine, November 1999 (Written by Lloyd George). Furthermore he self-identifies as Irish. How does that mean he isn't Irish?

Lol, seriously. Neeson joking "I'm an Irish hick" in a magazine interview is not a statement that he has Irish citizenship. You know who else self-identified as Irish? Ian Paisley: "I would never repudiate the fact that I am an Irishman." Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 17:48, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

Did you read the article? Yes, he said "I'm a big Irish hick" in it, but he also states "I'm a resident alien. I'm an Irish citizen." - it also states his children have dual American and Irish citizenship. --Mr Serious Guy (talk) 20:22, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

It's from the last century, almost two decades ago. WP:AGE MATTERS. Got anything more recent - like, from the last 2 or 3 years? Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 23:41, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

Neeson was given an OBE in 1999, not an honorary OBE, which suggests he is, whatever else, a British citizen: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/liam-neeson-gets-obe-in-new-year-s-honours-1.265915 . Compare with Bob Geldof, for example, who was awarded an honorary knighthood in 1986, as he is an Irish citizen: http://articles.latimes.com/1986-06-10/news/mn-10030_1_sir-bob-geldof Varnebank (talk) 07:34, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

Okay, so he's a British, Irish and American citizen. But he self-identifies as Irish. So surely an Irish citizen, who solely refers to themselves as Irish, would be given the dignity of being referred to as Irish in their Wikipedia page? --Mr Serious Guy (talk) 15:15, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

Actually he identifies as Northern Irish-American but as the Manual of style doesn't include self-identification as a detail to be included in the lead sentence the point is moot. Eckerslike (talk) 16:29, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

So he identifies as 'Irish-American', and he has Irish and American citizenship. Why can't his opening paragraph say 'an Irish-American actor from Northern Ireland' then?

Also, as per WP:AGE MATTERS, in this article, which is more recent, he identifies solely as Irish. But the question remains: why can an Irish national, who has Irish citizenship, and identifies as Irish, not be referred to as Irish? --Mr Serious Guy (talk) 16:42, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

Because self-identification is not consided part of the context to be included in the lead sentence. Eckerslike (talk) 18:23, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

Would we not agree that if we take into account WP:ETHNICITY it would be sensible to say he's Irish-American, seeing as he has Irish and American citizenship then?--Mr Serious Guy (talk) 14:03, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

To be accurate it would have to be British-Irish-American if it is based on current citizenship. Eckerslike (talk) 20:12, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

Yes, why not? --Mr Serious Guy (talk) 21:53, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

If you beleive that "British-Irish-American actor" is more concise than "actor from Northern Ireland". I don't. Eckerslike (talk) 17:51, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

I believe that his Irish citizenship should be stated before his British or American citizenship. "Liam" is Gaelic for "William" and he has always identified as being from the Irish community of Northern Ireland. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.77.238.190 (talk) 21:24, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

Here is Liam Neeson stating he is Irish and not British. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5OKskTIEU8 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.76.220.46 (talk) 16:49, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 July 2019

Can we please remove the "Irish" and "American" from citizenship? Because there is no proof that he is Irish or American. 86.152.99.88 (talk) 19:10, 28 July 2019 (UTC)

 Not done The three citizenships are each separately sourced in the article text, in the "Personal life" section. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:09, 28 July 2019 (UTC)

English standard for article

Should the article be written in Irish English (due to use ancestry) or American English (due to being Irish-American and living most of his life in the US)? I would assume the latter and I propose making the change. 95.49.59.34 (talk) 22:10, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

Oppose - Continue to use British English. Denisarona (talk) 08:16, 4 August 2019 (UTC)

Neeson speaks Ulster English. If it's good enough for him then it should be good enough for an article about him. -- Eckerslike (talk) 09:57, 4 August 2019 (UTC)

Darkman

Include Darkman 1990 film in the beginning — Preceding unsigned comment added by 42.110.197.164 (talk) 12:40, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

info about his wife

it should read 'died' 2009, NOT just 'd.' which could also mean 'divorced' --Anne8Ko (talk) 16:12, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Birth name

Is there any source for his birth name? The current CBS News source (presumably for date and place of birth?) no longer seems to work (for me in UK at least: [1]. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:17, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

i found an archived version of the page, turns out his name is william john neeson Xiamatt (talk) 11:55, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

I see, can you copy a link to that version here? Did it have any sources to support that claim? We can't use Wikipedia as a WP:RS. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:05, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

Have already added it to the article: https://web.archive.org/web/20110524212543/http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/12/15/earlyshow/leisure/celebspot/main661155.shtml Xiamatt (talk) 12:07, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

I'm not convinced that's a WP:RS. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:09, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

Just curious - why wouldn't CBS News be a reliable source? Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 13:15, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

I'm not sure. Perhaps it's just lack of any corroboration. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:33, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 April 2021

Controversies section. End of second paragraph about February 2019.

ADD A FURTHER DEFENDANT OF NEESON'S COMMENTS -

John Barnes

Reference - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ze66N6XK88M&t=196s 86.129.191.199 (talk) 19:33, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

Well, John Barnes is certainly notable. Is that YouTube clip from Sky available in other countries? Martinevans123 (talk) 19:37, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

 Done Added in with sky news article [2] as reference. WikiVirusC^(talk) 23:56, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Why is Neeson's role in the 1988 film High Spirits not here?

In the section for his Early Career Neeson's early films are mentioned along with the famous cast members he starred beside in those films. But it completely ignores the 1987 filming 1988 release film High Spirits where he played the part of an amorous but murderous ghost. Were cast members like Peter O'Toole, Beverly D'Angelo, Daryl Hannah, Steve Guttenberg, Jennifer Tilly, and Peter Gallagher, (among others) not famous enough to count alongside those other big names? In terms of casting the film had a huge collection of famous actors and actresses who either previously were or later went on to become famous. You could throw a dart at a list of cast members and almost inevitably 'pick' a person you recognize from other films.

I will grant that it was more of a campy horror comedy than what we expect from supernatural or horror movies. This film was less Day of the Dead and more Inter-National Haunted Vacation. Sadly this resulted in a lot of very unhappy critics... which as a result kept the general public from ever showing up at the box office and causing it to be a financial flop. But the film still has a huge following from after the fact viewers. Even to this day modern viewers are coming across it on YouTube and enjoying it. People who watch this movie seem to either love it or hate it with far more votes of 5 star among the population who watched it just for fun than the people who give it a 1 star on a 5 star scale. When critics all give the film 1 stars resulting in a 27% rotten tomato score that's usually a bad sign... but if you stopped and look at the peer reviews of people who actually watched it without being paid to do so then you would see a 92% approval rating.

For every ugly moment that flopped there were moments of true gem quality.

Flops like the "evil nuns" would have made me agree with the critics, but only up until you look at the gems of this film.

Gems like how the film displayed Hannah running or walking down the original halls and seeing Guttenberg ahead and then cut to his viewpoint as we saw walled in doorways. And then as Hannah reaches through the wall as the past meets the present... magic.

Flops like the talking horse may have been less funny than intended but..

Even just looking at the acting by Neeson himself in this film should have resulted in praise. Very few actors have the moxy and skill to act out a tragic death scene and mid scene break off to flirt with a woman, then return to the tragic murder in character without a break not once but several times back and forth. If not for anything else, this film should be recognized just for this bit of acting masterpiece lessons. I will never understand how critics could see any of these gem moments and not consider it film genius to outweigh the bad.

So which is it? The awful mess that almost every film critic of the day labelled it, or the hidden gem that practically every person who has watched it over the last 30 years on vhs, cable, or the internet adores it as? Honestly I feel like the critics deliberately crushed a good film (not best film in a career worthy obviously, but also not the trash heap they tried to reject the film into) and the public sheeple were too used to following along to give it a good chance. Having watched it multiple times myself, it is really hard to understand how critics of the time could ask for the film to be lining their dumpsters.

73.113.173.89 (talk) 02:30, 26 July 2021 (UTC) Haunt

Probably because compared to the others mentioned, it's not very notable? But instead of writing so much about the film, above, why not write an edit request, with the text of a sentence you want entered or altered to include mention of it? Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 09:18, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

He is British-American.

Neeson is not Irish and any commnets towards his Irishness should be removed. He is British with American citizenship also.

What do you mean by "comments towards his Irishness"? He was born in Ballymena. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:07, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

Neeson is Irish

Here is Neeson stating that he is Irish after being asked if he is British. Neeson's nationality is whatever he says it is. Play video at 14 seconds. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5OKskTIEU8 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.77.138.183 (talk • contribs) 21:29, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

Liam is not a nickname

Liam is not a nickname for William. It is Irish Gaelic for William. Calling Liam a nickname for William is an insult to the Irish language. A Gaelic first name in Northern Ireland implies Irish identity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.77.138.183 (talk) 21:30, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

I guess we follow whatever was said in that 1993 GQ article that is used as the source. But see Uilleam: "Uilleam is a masculine given name in the Scottish Gaelic language. It is the equivalent of the name William in English". And Liam: "Liam is a short form of the Irish name Uilliam or the old Germanic name William." The tern "short form" is often given as "nickname". I don't think any "insult" was intended, or would be taken (by most readers). Martinevans123 (talk) 21:49, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

I'm Irish and the article states that a translation into my native language is a nickname, which is technically offensive. Most Irish people will recognise Liam as Irish for William and will not be aware of Uilliam which I would guess to be a long out of use term. If a name evolves over time to a shortened version, it does not mean it is a nickname. The term nickname is potentially offensive to the majority of Irish people reading. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.77.138.183 (talk) 20:40, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Maybe refer this to an Irish editor. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.77.138.183 (talk) 20:42, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 December 2021

Liam Neeson is from Northern Ireland and identifies as Irish, not British. 2A02:8084:601D:E280:CD8B:CA02:81BC:3114 (talk) 20:49, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:56, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 December 2021

“Change ‘A British actor’ to ‘An Irish actor’ from Northern Ireland” - Liam is a Catholic from Ballymena he has stated this on numerous television shows such as the RTE talk show ‘The late late show’ 2A00:23C7:9003:3B01:1433:D725:4694:AA43 (talk) 10:50, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

So being a Catholic means he's Irish? Perhaps you have some sources where he describes himslelf Irish? Thank. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:59, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

Restored to long-standing consensus version - i.e., "an actor from Northern Ireland", no mention of citizenship in the infobox. Martinevans123, the archives have what you're looking for, including links to articles, as does the body of the article itself. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 11:02, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

So, we have sufficient sources describing himself as Irish, but agreed consensus is "an actor from Northern Ireland", yes? Martinevans123 (talk) 11:14, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

Yes. Stops all the edit wars (usually). Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 11:32, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 February 2022

Please change his name, it is Liam, not William! 2600:1015:B111:427C:E473:A7C8:DA58:91F4 (talk) 08:40, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

 Not done Here's the current source for his birth name: [3]. I suspect that others could be easily found. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:56, 7 February 2022 (UTC)