Talk:Libreboot

RfC: the primary (or only?) subject of this article

I think this is the main dispute on this talk page and AfD. It should be concluded in this RfC. I encourage people to cast their vote here:

1. The Libreboot(.org) project by Leah Rowe
2. The Libreboot.at project by GNU/FSF
3. Something else

PhotographyEdits (talk) 08:52, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

• Option 1: Pretty much all sources refer to this project, so this article should be primarily about that one. It should include that infobox as well, and the relevant external link. I think it is a good idea to include a section on hardware sold with Libreboot(.org) firmware. From my current understanding, no hardware with Libreboot(.at) was sold. The earliest occurrence of Libreboot.at on the Wayback Machine was March this year, the sources about hardware are older. See here. PhotographyEdits (talk) 08:52, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
• Option 1 because that's what the article is about, and what the sources are about. So far I haven't seen any reliable independent sources about libreboot.at, and the idea that the FSF's recent fork of libreboot somehow is the same thing as libreboot which was and continues to be maintained by Leah Rowe is absurd on its face. By the way, is the lack of an RfC template intentional? -- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH) 09:07, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

  >By the way, is the lack of an RfC template intentional?

  @Maddy from Celeste No, sorry, I just didn't lookup how to do that. PhotographyEdits (talk) 09:14, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

  Added. -- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH) 09:46, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

  @Maddy from Celeste Also, I think you mean libreboot.at in your original comment. PhotographyEdits (talk) 11:43, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

  Yes indeed. -- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH) 11:44, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

  @Maddy from Celeste I made some major change to the page with the quickly emerging consensus, please take a look. PhotographyEdits (talk) 12:32, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

  Looks good; I also copied over a few sections from my own revision that I think are still useful. -- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH) 19:00, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

• @PhotographyEdits Option 1 per Maddy — Charles Stewart (talk) 11:25, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
• Option 1; "absurd on its face" is a good way to put it. DFlhb (talk) 11:38, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
• Option 1 As a longtime avid Thinkpad user I've always thought that libreboot.org should be the one and only source. Forks are allowed and can be mentioned but should take care of themselves.Triantares (talk) 12:32, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
• Option 1: as explained earlier in the RFC and the talk page Rlink2 (talk) 15:30, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
• Option 3: Something else: As requested several times, deeper dive into "libreboot" sources is needed, with some objectivity. The sad fact is Libreboot.org/minifree/gluglug/(osboot/Distroboot) get mostly mentioned (if that) within more significant coverage of Free Software Foundation's Respects Your Freedom certifications of hardware products sold by several companies also working towards libre booting. Can you name 3 or 4 independent, reliable sources with significant coverage of libreboot.org? -- Yae4 (talk) 18:17, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
• Option 1 primary (not only): the .org project clearly is the original distribution of coreboot with this name and I don't see any evidence (since it apparently just forked in March 2023?) that the .at fork has surpassed it or even reached enough notability to have, say, its own article at Libreboot.at.(or similar name). I think it is likely the proper amount of the coverage of the laptops sold with Libreboot should be shrunk some. And the fact that the .at fork occurred can definitely be included in this article. Skynxnex (talk) 22:18, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

Option 1 This is the OG. https://libreboot.at literally points to a random forum post about QubesOS v. Trisquel Greatder (talk) 10:10, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

More sources - and possibly ones that can expand the history section

Hi, again as stated before I'm the founder of Libreboot, thus COI, so I can't+won't edit the article myself, but recent discussions have prompted me to search for more sources myself. Sourcing has been an issue for this article. Anyway:

2023 source: https://hackaday.com/2023/04/21/getting-the-most-from-fading-thinkpads/ - April 21st, 2023, and it has been established in consensus that HackADay is an OK source. This one probably counts towards general notability and maybe it could go under "reception"

https://wiki.debian.org/InstallingDebianOn/Asus/C201 - Debian is a noteworthy project and it references Libreboot, in context of ASUS C201 (one of Libreboot's supported platforms, in earlier releases)

History section:

from 2022: https://www.zdnet.com/article/debian-linux-accepts-proprietary-firmware-in-major-policy-change/ - this source is about Debian mainly, references https://libreboot.org/news/policy.html which is Libreboot's policy that was changed in November 2022 - context: https://libreboot.org/freedom-status.html pertaining to Libreboot's Binary Blob Reduction Policy

In the history section, I'd like ideally for it to cover this policy as linked above, referring to Libreboot's policy change of November 2022, described on that same policy page. Quite a lot went on in Libreboot since ~2017 which is when the current history section runs up to.

Libreboot is also referenced on https://coreboot.org/users.html - Libreboot is technically its own project and I work on that, while coreboot is separate. Coreboot is quite notable and mentions Libreboot, perhaps this page could be provided as a source for notability?

2020 hackaday source mentioning libreboot prominently - not sure how to place it in article though: https://hackaday.com/2020/08/12/degrees-of-freedom-booting-arm-processors/

https://freesoftware.org.au/hardware-and-software-recommendation/ - importantly not the FSF, but an unaffiliated organisation that prominently mentions libreboot (sourced from google searching 2019 results)

2018: https://hackaday.com/2018/08/20/installing-libreboot-the-very-lazy-way/ - may already be sourced, didn't check

2018: https://rosenzweig.io/blog/living-on-a-rockchip.html - blog, but from a notable person (who has a wikipedia page at Alyssa Rosenzweig), could be used as source to add ASUS C201 on hardware support

2017: https://wiki.debian.org/AMT - prominent mention of Libreboot, in context of Intel ME advice

2017: https://www.tomshardware.com/news/intel-amt-vulnerability-me-dangerous,34300.html - prominently mentioned in context of Intel ME advice

2016: https://hardenedlinux.github.io/firmware/2016/11/17/neutralize_ME_firmware_on_sandybridge_and_ivybridge.html - in context of Intel ME removal, libreboot is prominently mentioned

A few more sources, probably not worthy of wikipedia (they're blogs):

2021 source: https://ariadne.space/2021/10/19/trustworthy-computing-in-2021/ - references libreboot quite prominently Libreleah (talk) 03:40, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

Finding stuff between 2017-2021 is harder, because Libreboot suffered a lapse in releases during that period; during that time, the project was in a state of flux due to development going off in many different directions on an ambitious re-write, one that I later scrapped. In early 2021 I virtually rebooted the project from scratch, started over from development as of ~early 2017, and brought the project up to date.

Libreboot has been picking up again since 2021, and has been gaining a lot of traction. As I write this, I'm working on a new stable release and hope to get fresh new sources for this article.

For the time being, finding such sources as above seemed to be high priority given recent discussions. What do people think of these, for use in the article? Libreleah (talk) 03:43, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

please someone fix the rfc template in case i messed it up, i'm still relatively new to working with wikipedia's infrastructure - i don't see this topic mentioned on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Maths,_science,_and_technology ?? Libreleah (talk) 04:02, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

more sources, these were mentioned by someone in the 2nd AfD page: https://archive.org/details/NAGMagazineMarch2015ZA/PC%20World%20-%20March%202015%20%20USA/page/n23/mode/2up?q=libreboot and https://archive.org/details/LinuxVoice/Linux-Voice-Issue-021/page/n19/mode/2up?q=libreboot

these are really strong sources too, could probably be put under "reception" Libreleah (talk) 04:09, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

These last two ones seem to mainly discuss Gluglug's "LibreBoot" laptop, not libreboot itself. As for the rest, we generally don't use wikis or random websites, also most of these only mention libreboot without providing significant information about it. If you think there's some specific new information that one of these could bring, feel free to propose an addition. -- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH) 09:08, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

I've removed the RfC template from this section; WP:RFCs are specifically for resolving contentious questions that local discussion has not resolved, by asking for wider community input. This just seems like a list of sources. I'll try to remember to look at these once I have time. -- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH) 05:46, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

Also, never copy the |rfcid= from another rfc - always leave off both the parameter and value, let Legobot assign its own. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 20:13, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

Does the article need to talk about Libreboot sellers?

Hi, my recent edit removed the sellers section, but editors please reintroduce it if you think it belongs there. I feel that the article stands on its own without that section, which rather comes across as an "ad" (albeit it for multiple sellers). Unless the article is about a commercial product, I believe it should focus just on the main topic, which is a FOSS project.

I think articles should be written about those three companies instead: Technoethical, Minifree and Libiquity. Even as stubs, articles about them would likely meet WP:GNG.

I also expanded the histories and reception subsections in this article. Thoughts welcome! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.29.243.86 (talk) 17:54, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

I have partially reverted your additions to the History section. Rosenzweig's post on libreboot.org supports neither Rowe "relinguishing control" over libreboot or apologizing – that's just not what it says, and even if it did, it couldn't be used because of WP:BLPSPS. Your "period of stagnation" is WP:OR. All you have are sources showing that there was a five-year gap between releases. Nothing about "stagnation", nor anything connecting it to the GNU exit. Using a blog post to say Rowe did a "hostile takeover" again violates WP:BLPSPS. -- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH) 18:13, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

sources for recent Libreboot 20230625 release

there were arguments that libreboot doesn't meet WP:GNG in the past.

i've done a release recently, via libreboot.org. i'm doing more over the coming months and probably another one soon in coming weeks. anyway, here's some coverage from google for the recent release (released on 25 June 2023):

https://goodtech.info/ce-quil-faut-savoir-sur-le-nouveau-libreboot-20230625/

https://www.linuxtoday.com/developer/libreboot-20230625-gets-support-for-new-hardware/

https://www.linux-magazin.de/news/libreboot-20230625-unterstuetzt-weitere-mainboards/

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/late-night-linux-family-all-episodes/id1381229825 -- that's the podcast https://www-edivaldobrito-com-br.translate.goog/libreboot-20230625-lancado-com-suporte-a-mais-sistemas-antigos/?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp

https://www.linux-magazin.de/news/libreboot-20230625-unterstuetzt-weitere-mainboards/

https://alternativeto.net/news/2023/6/libreboot-releases-latest-stable-version-with-support-for-three-new-boards/

https://9to5linux.com/libreboot-open-source-bios-uefi-replacement-gets-support-for-new-hardware

https://www.omglinux.com/new-libreboot-stable-release/

https://www.getgnu.org/yazilim/libreboot-20230625-duyuruldu.html

https://www.linuxcompatible.org/story/libreboot-20230625-released/

https://www.oschina.net/news/246931/libreboot-20230625-released

https://www.phoronix.com/news/Libreboot-20230625

https://www.ilsoftware.it/libreboot-cose-e-come-funziona-il-sostituito-dei-bios-proprietari/

and that's just after like 2 minutes of googling that i found these. have fun with them. Libreleah (talk) 15:37, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

"Gluglug" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Gluglug has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 September 16 § Gluglug until a consensus is reached. Utopes _{(talk / cont)} 04:38, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

"Libiquity Taurinus" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Libiquity Taurinus has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 September 16 § Libiquity Taurinus until a consensus is reached. Utopes _{(talk / cont)} 04:50, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

Link to dispute found. Should I place more links on this page or another page?

https://web.archive.org/web/20240320191421/https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/libreboot/2016-09/msg00036.html

shows in part a user there called Leah Rowe typed about

"The Free Software Foundation recently fired a transgendered employee ofthe FSF, just for being trans, because some transphobic cissexist peoplewrote negativly about her."

Though does anyone know where to find proof that any employee was fired by the FSF just for identifying as a "trans" person?

Or that any "transphobic cissexist" wrote negativly about the fired employee.

If it was in writing, it is likely shown somewhere.

And what was the complaint that was made?

Maybe it was about something other than "being trans" that was wrote by those that Leah Rowe called "transphobic cissexist" people.

Or was the employee not fired "just for being trans" and there may have been more to what happened than what this mail shows?

If anyone knows a link to a website, document, or any other information about any dispute between the person called Leah Rowe and the Free Software Foundation it may help people find out what happened.

I did see this link on the page, but do not know if any information about a possible dispute between the person called Leah Rowe and the Free Software Foundation should be placed here or at some other page.

I do not wish to have "Misrepresentation of other people" or "personal attacks"as shown at

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Talk_page_guidelines#Behavior_that_is_unacceptable

in an article, or it's references, if it is not about the page topic, though I do not know how to handle this link as it also shows information about Libreboot.

Maybe these links can also help

https://web.archive.org/web/20230610020636/https://fossforce.com/2016/09/fsf-says-firing-wasnt-discrimatory/

https://web.archive.org/web/20230610020636/https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/libreboot/2016-09/msg00052.html

https://web.archive.org/web/20230528221851/https://www.fsf.org/news/free-software-foundation-statement

Though I do not know much about what happened. Maybe more information can be found to see what was typed about on each side of the dispute, if that can help improve this article, or at least Wikipedia.

I have before edited this page, and some other pages, I do not know if that means I now "declared a connection" to what I edited before. Other Cody (talk) 23:14, 6 May 2024 (UTC)