Talk:Lionel Messi/Archive 15
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Semi-protected edit request on 23 September 2018
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Ankith2005 (talk) 14:46, 23 September 2018 (UTC)
bro i am from india please change messi goals for barca to 391 goals as he scored 4 goals this season currently. regards Ankith2005
- First of all, where you are from is irrelevant. Second, the total in the infobox already includes the four league goals he’s scored this season, so there’s no need to change anything. – PeeJay 15:21, 23 September 2018 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 30 October 2018
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Change "Often considered the best player in the world and regarded by many as one of the greatest players of all time,[6][7][8]" to "Considered by many as the greatest player of all time" Source: https://www.sport-english.com/en/news/barca/lionel-messi-voted-the-best-player-in-the-history-of-football-6096549 and many more. Nasirahmad123 (talk) 18:19, 30 October 2018 (UTC)
Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}}template. feminist (talk) 14:22, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 19 November 2018
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Messi plays as a centre forward not a forward only Teh wiki king (talk) 09:37, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
- He also plays as a winger sometimes, so we use "forward" as a catch-all term for all the positions he's capable of playing. – PeeJay 10:46, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 30 December 2018
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217.73.142.242 (talk) 21:03, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. DannyS712 (talk) 21:15, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
Messi records
I think two World records should be edited out:
- Top goalscorer in all club competitions in a calendar year: 79 goals in 2012
- Top goalscorer in a club season: 73 goals in 2011–12
Messi has the Guinness record to back up one claim, but no one has successfully disputed Godfrey Chitalu's claim for 104 in all club competitions in 1972 and 95 in a club season (also 1972). Hence those two records should be scratched or moved to Europe (not world). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godfrey_Chitalu Maruti (talk) 01:29, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
Trophy count
Messi's official trophy count is 33 according to FC Barcelona [1][2], La Liga [3], Eurosport [4], ESPN [5] and the Daily Mail [6]. However, this is surprisingly disputed by users such as User:Aavelarx, who keeps changing this with arguments like "It's not fair that Messi is credited with 33 trophies" and so forth without adding reliable sources that would confirm his claim, and User:PeeJay2K3, whose argument when reverting my changes was a blatant, unjustified "Wrong". Can we please reach a consensus and award Messi the 33 trophies he has so deservedly won? Paulinho28 (talk) 19:52, 17 January 2019 (UTC)
- How can you possibly claim that Messi "won" the 2005 Spanish Supercup? He wasn't involved in either leg and wasn't even part of the club's "A" squad at the time. According to this page, he wore number 30 at the start of the season and was re-registered as number 19 later on. Players in Spanish clubs' "A" squads had to wear numbers between 1 and 25 at the time, which indicates that Messi was not part of the "A" squad at the start of the season. It would be unfeasible to consider a player to have won an honour if they weren't part of the club's "A" squad at the time, so while there may be plenty of sources claiming that Messi did win the 2005 Spanish Supercup, I would suggest that they are simply trying to artificially inflate his trophy count. – PeeJay 21:19, 17 January 2019 (UTC)
- Once again you have failed to provide a reliable source supporting your claim (apart from that with his shirt number, which, apart from being from a questionable site, doesn't prove anything). And responding with sentences like "I would suggest that they are simply trying to artificially inflate his trophy count." isn't helping your case either, because it's only your opinion and the sources I've listed are fairly reliable. Paulinho28 (talk) 12:53, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
- This is a tricky situation though, because as far as I know, no-one seems to know what the regulations are in Spain regarding winners medals for the various competitions being assigned to members of the winning team, and I have tried to look for this information but have had no luck as of yet. Obviously it is widely known that in English football often you have to be in the squad for the final of a tournament itself, but that does not mean that all domestic competitions abide by those same regulations, however. For example, I do know for a fact that in Italy the rules are quite different to English football, and a medal is assigned to the entire winning team, not just the starting XI and players on the substitute bench (even those who did not appear or weren't called up). I would disregard any articles from newspapers, as they aren't always reliable, but if Barcelona have credited him with that title on their official club profile for Messi on their official website, even though he wasn't called up for that match, and listed him as the most decorated Barcelona player ever alongside Iniesta in 2017, and stated that they both won the same Spanish Supercups, then I would think that he must've been assigned that medal (plus, although he wasn't a permanent first-team member, he had already been promoted to the first team by 2005, and was no longer playing for the B squad by then, so to claim that would be false). I mean, to me it seems that the although we know he wasn't called up for either leg of that final, we do not know whether all squad members are assigned winners' medals or not (as, once again, not all regulations for domestic competitions are the same as those in British football); the only information we have is that Barcelona have listed him as having won that honour. If there were only sources from Newspapers (even reliable ones – i.e. not the Daily Mail) that listed him as having won that title, then I wouldn't include it, as there can often be discrepancies, but if it's on his Barcelona profile, then I would keep it there. Thoughts? And please be civil; don't be condescending, as I'm trying to come to a reasonable solution here. Best regards, Messirulez (talk) 00:46, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
- You make a very sound point here Messirulez. Paulinho28 (talk) 14:52, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
- You say Italian clubs give medals to the entire team, but who decides which players that includes? I'm not saying only the players who were selected for the match should be considered winners, but Messi wasn't even in the club's A team at the time (indicated by his squad number; players in the A team could only wear numbers 1-25), and had only made nine first-team appearances. I mean, obviously he was on the fringes of the A team at the time, but I wouldn't necessarily just take FC Barcelona's word for it on this subject. We don't know if Messi got a medal for the 2005 Spanish Supercup, and we may never know for sure - Barcelona listing it among his honours is no indication one way or the other. Why would you disregard newspapers? They are surely a better source than the club, since they are independent of the subject. – PeeJay 20:17, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
- This is a tricky situation though, because as far as I know, no-one seems to know what the regulations are in Spain regarding winners medals for the various competitions being assigned to members of the winning team, and I have tried to look for this information but have had no luck as of yet. Obviously it is widely known that in English football often you have to be in the squad for the final of a tournament itself, but that does not mean that all domestic competitions abide by those same regulations, however. For example, I do know for a fact that in Italy the rules are quite different to English football, and a medal is assigned to the entire winning team, not just the starting XI and players on the substitute bench (even those who did not appear or weren't called up). I would disregard any articles from newspapers, as they aren't always reliable, but if Barcelona have credited him with that title on their official club profile for Messi on their official website, even though he wasn't called up for that match, and listed him as the most decorated Barcelona player ever alongside Iniesta in 2017, and stated that they both won the same Spanish Supercups, then I would think that he must've been assigned that medal (plus, although he wasn't a permanent first-team member, he had already been promoted to the first team by 2005, and was no longer playing for the B squad by then, so to claim that would be false). I mean, to me it seems that the although we know he wasn't called up for either leg of that final, we do not know whether all squad members are assigned winners' medals or not (as, once again, not all regulations for domestic competitions are the same as those in British football); the only information we have is that Barcelona have listed him as having won that honour. If there were only sources from Newspapers (even reliable ones – i.e. not the Daily Mail) that listed him as having won that title, then I wouldn't include it, as there can often be discrepancies, but if it's on his Barcelona profile, then I would keep it there. Thoughts? And please be civil; don't be condescending, as I'm trying to come to a reasonable solution here. Best regards, Messirulez (talk) 00:46, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
- Messi was definitely part of the A team by the 2005–06 season, which is when the 2005 Spanish Supercup took place. He made no appearances for the B team that season, and I don't think it's fair to say that he was a peripheral player either; obviously he wasn't a permanent starter, but although that season wasn't quite his breakthrough (that was the following season), he already showed a lot of potential and played in some big Champions League games and even received a call-up for the 2006 World Cup from Argentina, and he would've played more had he not been injured mid-way through the season. As for the shirt numbers, can you find a better more reliable source than the one you posted? It seems to be an interesting point and theory, but I don't know how accurate it is, and probably wouldn't be permitted as a source on wikipedia. You're right that newspapers are more impartial and generally reliable (obviously excluding unreliable ones – i.e. The Daily Mail), but the reason why I was saying that I would find a club's source more accurate than a newspaper in this case is that newspapers often list honours based on what the teams won during the seasons that a particular player spent at a club. The other reason is that often the clubs often list whether a player has won an honour with the club or not (Milan's club pages list which players received medals, and Juventus's pages on their Italian Supercup victories also list the players involved). To me the fact that Barcelona have included it in his honours list on his official profile seems like the most information that we will get regarding this matter. But we should probably take this to a proper discussion on the Wikipedia Football page and come up with an actual solution rather than continuing to argue over this and revert each other, because this issue isn't only exclusive to Messi's page, but to many others as well, and there are some users who remove some Italian football honours because they think that all competitions abide by the same regulations as those in English football. I think that's the only way to resolve this problem. Then, regardless of the outcome, we accept it, and abide by those standards, and move on. There are certainly times where I didn't agree with a consensus, but I accepted it once there was an actual vote and agreement. But I remember I had a similar argument with a user over whether the FIFA Ballon d'Or counted as both the France Football Ballon d'Or and the FIFA World Player of the Year, or only the latter, and it ended up being frustrating until an agreement was finally reached. Best, Messirulez (talk) 02:20, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
- You're talking about Messi's squad status as though it was decided at the start of the season and then didn't change at all. What I'm saying is that at the time of the 2005 Spanish Super Cup, he was not really part of the A team; he only played in one of Barcelona's first seven matches in La Liga that season and only started in one of their first 11 matches. I know it was for registration purposes, but his squad number was not one of an A team player (see this report from the last game he played that season, still wearing #30). I'm happy to admit that Messi had become an A team player by the end of the season, but to suggest that he should be considered a winner of the 2005 Spanish Super Cup when he was only on the fringes of the A team at the time is nonsense to me. – PeeJay 12:37, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
- Messi was definitely part of the A team by the 2005–06 season, which is when the 2005 Spanish Supercup took place. He made no appearances for the B team that season, and I don't think it's fair to say that he was a peripheral player either; obviously he wasn't a permanent starter, but although that season wasn't quite his breakthrough (that was the following season), he already showed a lot of potential and played in some big Champions League games and even received a call-up for the 2006 World Cup from Argentina, and he would've played more had he not been injured mid-way through the season. As for the shirt numbers, can you find a better more reliable source than the one you posted? It seems to be an interesting point and theory, but I don't know how accurate it is, and probably wouldn't be permitted as a source on wikipedia. You're right that newspapers are more impartial and generally reliable (obviously excluding unreliable ones – i.e. The Daily Mail), but the reason why I was saying that I would find a club's source more accurate than a newspaper in this case is that newspapers often list honours based on what the teams won during the seasons that a particular player spent at a club. The other reason is that often the clubs often list whether a player has won an honour with the club or not (Milan's club pages list which players received medals, and Juventus's pages on their Italian Supercup victories also list the players involved). To me the fact that Barcelona have included it in his honours list on his official profile seems like the most information that we will get regarding this matter. But we should probably take this to a proper discussion on the Wikipedia Football page and come up with an actual solution rather than continuing to argue over this and revert each other, because this issue isn't only exclusive to Messi's page, but to many others as well, and there are some users who remove some Italian football honours because they think that all competitions abide by the same regulations as those in English football. I think that's the only way to resolve this problem. Then, regardless of the outcome, we accept it, and abide by those standards, and move on. There are certainly times where I didn't agree with a consensus, but I accepted it once there was an actual vote and agreement. But I remember I had a similar argument with a user over whether the FIFA Ballon d'Or counted as both the France Football Ballon d'Or and the FIFA World Player of the Year, or only the latter, and it ended up being frustrating until an agreement was finally reached. Best, Messirulez (talk) 02:20, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
- Once again, though; do you have a better source? Transfermarkt also isn't acceptable as per wikipedia guidelines and is considered to he unreliable (also, it lists him as having win the Spanish Super Cup in 2005, interestingly enough). Also, aside from not being from a repubtable source, the other link you posted also doesn't really say anything about the regulations, or squad sizes in Spanish football, or who was registered with the A team other than listing the shirt numbers of players on the team for that season (also, Damià Abella was on the bench for the first leg of the 2005 Supercopa de España, and he had the number 32 at the time). I don't know if you can use the fact that he didn't play in many matches in the first half of the season to say that he wasn't really part of the A-team. There are plenty of young players on a team who are first team members but who don't play much (e.g. Kean at Juventus). Also, in the first sentence of the Messi article (which has a reliable source from a biography on him by Balagué) says: "On 24 June 2005, his 18th birthday, Messi signed his first contract as a senior team player. It made him a Barcelona player until 2010, two years less than his previous contract, but his buyout clause increased to €150 million." This for me is without a doubt proof that he was a first-team player (and the Supercopa took place in August that year). I also remember that later that month, after the Supercopa, Capello wanted to sign him on loan after seeing his impressive performance when he started against Juventus in the Joan Gamper Trophy (which Hunter's book on Barcelona, which is cited in Messi's wiki article, also corroborates). But regardless of any of this, my point is, that continuing to debate over this and reverting each other will get us nowhere; we need to come to an actual solution, do you not agree? Messirulez (talk) 16:42, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
- I think we're coming at this from different angles. A player can be considered "part of the first team" in several ways. I would agree that Barcelona were treating him as though he was part of the first team, but he was officially part of the B team. You can look at any La Liga squad list and see that most players are numbered between 1 and 25, with only youth team players numbered higher. Some players are registered in the B team because it opens up a spot in the senior team for another player, which was probably the case with Messi until he no longer qualified for the B team, but he was definitely in the B team at the start of the 2005/06 season because he wore #30. Contracts and training schedules are another thing entirely, I'm just talking about how he was registered. – PeeJay 17:47, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
- Once again, though; do you have a better source? Transfermarkt also isn't acceptable as per wikipedia guidelines and is considered to he unreliable (also, it lists him as having win the Spanish Super Cup in 2005, interestingly enough). Also, aside from not being from a repubtable source, the other link you posted also doesn't really say anything about the regulations, or squad sizes in Spanish football, or who was registered with the A team other than listing the shirt numbers of players on the team for that season (also, Damià Abella was on the bench for the first leg of the 2005 Supercopa de España, and he had the number 32 at the time). I don't know if you can use the fact that he didn't play in many matches in the first half of the season to say that he wasn't really part of the A-team. There are plenty of young players on a team who are first team members but who don't play much (e.g. Kean at Juventus). Also, in the first sentence of the Messi article (which has a reliable source from a biography on him by Balagué) says: "On 24 June 2005, his 18th birthday, Messi signed his first contract as a senior team player. It made him a Barcelona player until 2010, two years less than his previous contract, but his buyout clause increased to €150 million." This for me is without a doubt proof that he was a first-team player (and the Supercopa took place in August that year). I also remember that later that month, after the Supercopa, Capello wanted to sign him on loan after seeing his impressive performance when he started against Juventus in the Joan Gamper Trophy (which Hunter's book on Barcelona, which is cited in Messi's wiki article, also corroborates). But regardless of any of this, my point is, that continuing to debate over this and reverting each other will get us nowhere; we need to come to an actual solution, do you not agree? Messirulez (talk) 16:42, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
- Yes, but do you have actual reliable sources for these claims regarding how he was registered at the beginning of the season? Because they seem to be as tenuous as my claim that he has a Supercup medal given that his Barcelona profile lists him as having won the honour and given that he had already signed a first team contract. I tried searching and I couldn't find anything of the sort regarding squads in La Liga being limited to 25 players and that the registered first team players' shirt numbers can only be from 1–25, and I speak Spanish fluently as well and was looking for Spanish articles or official La Liga BBVA sources. The only information I found was that Messi had signed a first team contract with the team in June 2005, and that he did not appear for the B team that season, only the first team, which seems to be a stronger claim than he wore the shirt number 30 (the Barca Wiki article for the 2005–06 season also lists him as being promoted to the first team and other articles had mentioned that he was a first team regular by than and that injuries only prevented him from appearing more frequently). Regardless, we need to actually open up a discussion regarding this issue rather than discussing it on here, because right now it isn't resolved and it's becoming a this user said this vs. this user said that issue with no proof on either side. Messirulez (talk) 20:59, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
- Hi, everyone. I've opened up a discussion here; if you could please comment and help find a solution I'm sure it would be very helpful and avoid such confusion or edit wars in the future. Thank you. Best, Messirulez (talk) 23:08, 21 January 2019 (UTC).
Semi-protected edit request on 4 February 2019
lionel messi is the worst football player — Preceding unsigned comment added by 42.109.57.205 (talk) 13:19, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
Most assists and hat-tricks in El Clásico
In the end of the first paragraph, the following records are mentioned: - Most goals in El Clásico (26). - Most hat-tricks in the Champions League (8). - Most assists in La Liga (165) and the Copa América (11).
Since "most assists", "most hat-tricks" and "El Clásico" are mentioned, I suggest to include the following records: - Most assists in El Clásico (14). - Most hat-tricks in El Clásico (2) (this one is not that impressive).
For including these records, I would rephrase the last sentence of the first paragraph as follows: Both a prolific goalscorer and a creative playmaker, Messi holds the records for most goals scored in La Liga (408), a La Liga season (50), a club football season in Europe (73), a calendar year (91), El Clásico (26), most hat-tricks in the UEFA Champions League (8) and El Clásico (2), as well as those for most assists in La Liga (165), El Clásico (14) and the Copa América (11). He has scored over 670 senior career goals for club and country. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:4C50:12E:E000:717E:28D3:479A:686E (talk) 23:26, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 16 March 2019
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During the 2018-2019 UEFA Champions League campaign Messi scored twice in a 5-1 win over Lyon in a second leg tie to helped Barcelona book their quarter final berth and in the process achieved another historic feat of defeating 84 out of the 85 different opponents he had faced in his 15-year club career with the senior team. Mwangispoti (talk) 13:23, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
- Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. NiciVampireHeart 08:22, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 29 March 2019
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change the "extra time" before citation 65 (in the third paragraph under section 2005-08: making the starting eleven) to "injury time" Reason: the extra time here is misunderstood as overtime, when in reality it's actually just injury time/stoppage time. There's no extra time/overtime for La Liga matches. The person who added this portion probably doesn't watch football much and should be disqualified from editing footballer's page for lack of expertise. Mjyang4117 (talk) 18:41, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
Done - you are right about this explanation. Extra time is used in cup competitions (e.g. the World Cup, the Euros) but not in La Liga where draws count as final scores. Thanks for noticing that. Iggy (Swan) 21:42, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
Individual awards is wrong.
La Liga best player and best forward need to be added. : best player 1617, best forward 1617, 1718 Football record (talk) 17:23, 1 April 2019 (UTC)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Liga_Awards Look at the main category. :) Football record (talk) 18:39, 1 April 2019 (UTC)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016–17_La_Liga And here. Football record (talk) 18:45, 1 April 2019 (UTC)
- Wikipedia cannot be a source for itself. Please provide a reliable, third-party source. – PeeJay 19:30, 1 April 2019 (UTC)
A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion
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Missing plural in opening paragraph
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Please change "one of the greatest player of all time" to "one of the greatest players of all time" in the second sentence of the opening paragraph. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:45:4100:77fb:8df5:2c30:a326:a4ff (talk • contribs)
Semi-protected edit request on 30 April 2019
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He recently won a trophy, and I wanted to update the page regarding the number of trophies won, specific trophy won, and such. FaridEstefan (talk) 13:35, 30 April 2019 (UTC)
- Not done: this is not the right page to request additional user rights. You may reopen this request with the specific changes to be made and someone will add them for you, or if you have an account, you can wait until you are autoconfirmed and edit the page yourself. ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 14:11, 30 April 2019 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 2 May 2019
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add Order/Distinctions to Honours and achievements#Individual and add lines/description in the article
2019 Creu de Sant Jordi Lionel Messi to receive the Creu de Sant Jordi for "outstanding achievements and service to Catalonia"
https://govern.cat/gov/cohesio-social/350642/govern-distingeix-creu-sant-jordi-29-persones-15-entitats
Translation:
For his great sporting career, he has led him to be recognized as the best soccer player of all time. ... In a mass sport such as football, Leo Messi embodies social attributes as primordial as humility, honesty, learning, creativity, team sense and respect. He has created the Leo Messi Foundation , which focuses on equipment for children and young people. He has collaborated with several hospitals in Catalonia. Among these collaborations, he emphasizes his contribution to the Hospital Sant Joan de Déu for the construction of Pedriatic Cancer Center.
https://www.fcbarcelona.com/en/news/1204525/messi-to-receive-the-creu-de-sant-jordi https://www.beinsports.com/us/laliga/video/messi-to-receive-award-from-catalan-governmen/1180304 115.95.27.226 (talk) 22:47, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
Messi has 8 spanish supercups, not 7
Sources:
Official Barcelona FC website: https://www.fcbarcelona.es/es/futbol/primer-equipo/jugadores/4974/lionel-messi#
Another source: https://www.transfermarkt.es/lionel-messi/erfolge/spieler/28003
- I'm not getting into this again. Basically, you're wrong and so are those sources. – PeeJay 14:52, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- Hi, @PeeJay2K3:; we had a consensus on this last time on the WP:Footy page, and although there were several people that shared your opinion, more users voted to include the title on Messi's page as Messi's La Liga BBVA Official profile also included it. Best regards, Messirulez (talk) 21:18, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
- Are you sure about that? That's not how I remember the discussion going down. – PeeJay 21:22, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
- The discussion is not there anymore, as it has been archived now, but if I remember correctly (and please do correct me if I'm wrong) several users had voted in support, and I don't remember if anyone voted against it. I haven't re-added the honour though, as I myself felt less certain of what should be done in the end, as it seems to be a bit of a grey area. But I feel like it's hard to go against the LFP on this. Messirulez (talk) 21:29, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
- Are you sure about that? That's not how I remember the discussion going down. – PeeJay 21:22, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
- Hi, @PeeJay2K3:; we had a consensus on this last time on the WP:Footy page, and although there were several people that shared your opinion, more users voted to include the title on Messi's page as Messi's La Liga BBVA Official profile also included it. Best regards, Messirulez (talk) 21:18, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
Messi has 7 super Copa not 8 he was not even in the squad list of 2005 super copa . Also Wikipedia has not enlisted community shield 2008 and uefa super cup 2016 for the same reason when club websites have included them. Please maintain the parity. SoumyajitCR (talk) 03:58, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion
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Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 11:51, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
ESPYS Award 2019
On Individual/Award, can you please put Best International Men’s Soccer Player. He won the award. JoseNike (talk) 09:03, 11 July 2019 (UTC)
Anyone able to fix the Messi series below the infobox?
It’s been vandalised. Nampa DC (talk) 20:05, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
- The template was vandalised. All fixed now! -- Jezebel's Ponyobons mots 20:11, 17 July 2019 (UTC)