Talk:List of Arab and Middle Eastern Americans in the United States Congress

Article title

@AuH2ORepublican and JimmyJoe87: Is this list intended to include all Middle-Eastern Americans (a broad ethnic definition), as well as all Arab Americans (another broad definition), in Congress? A comprehensive list will encompass countries on a few continents, and will include a pretty broad swathe of Jewish Americans in Congress. So far it only includes members of Levantine Arab descent. Perhaps the article should be renamed to reflect the list's scope more precisely. The Mighty Glen (talk) 18:46, 24 December 2017 (UTC)

@TheMightyGlen and JimmyJoe87:, the reason why "Middle-Eastern Americans" was included in the article's name was because otherwise it would exclude persons from Arab countries who are not ethnically Arab, such as persons of Assyrian (aka Chaldean), Turkish, Persian, Kurdish, etc. descent; otherwise, a lot of immigrants from Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, etc. would have to be left off. I have added the two Assyrian Americans who have served in Congress (Adam Benjamin and Anna Eshoo), but I am not aware of any other descendants of non-Arab Middle-Easterner immigrants who have served in Congress; this number surely will increase in the coming years.

Regarding Jewish-American congressmen, there already is a Wikipedia article devoted to such group. I am not aware of any Jewish-American congressmen whose ancestors lived in the Middle East during the past, say, 200 years (if we look back 1,500 years then just about every member of Congress is of "Middle Eastern ancestry"), but if any descendants of recent Levantine Jews or Iraqi Jews have served or go on to serve in Congress, then my personal opinion is that they should be added to this article as well, since otherwise it could be seen as saying that a Jewish Iraqi is not a "true Iraqi."

What do you think?AuH2ORepublican (talk) 19:34, 24 December 2017 (UTC)

There are always going to be definitional issues with a list of this sort, but I don't think people looking for Middle Eastern American politicians would expect to find a list of all Jewish politicians, especially since there's a separate list for that. On the other hand, I have reinserted John Krebs into the list as he migrated to the US after growing up in Palestine; was a member of the class of “Palestine refugees“; and actually held Palestinian citizenship. I feel that it would be perverse to exclude him. Joe in Australia (talk) 02:20, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

@User:Joe in Australia, I understand your point about Congressman Krebs having grown up in the Middle East, in what was then the British Mandate of Palestine (or "Mandatory Palestine"), but listing Krebs in the article will create several problems that would be absent if we were to list, for example, a child of Israelis or even a descendant of 18th- and 19th-century Jews from the Holy Land.

First of all, Krebs's parents were Asknenazi Jews from Germany, so his family hadn't lived in the Middle East for over a millennium. Krebs was not a "Middle-Eastern Jew" in the sense that we use the term to describe a descendant of Israeli Jews or of Iraqi Jews.

Second, Krebs himself was born in Germany, didn't arrive in Mandatory Palestine until he was 6 or 7, and while he had a "Palestinian" passport when he emigrated to America at age 19, he was not a "citizen of a Middle-Eastern country" in the sense that we use the term today, given that he was either a stateless person (having repudiated or otherwise lost his German citizenship) or else a British subject residing in Mandatory Palestine. There was no sovereign country in the Holy Land whose citizenship he could claim.

And third--and what troubles me the most--the term "Palestinian American," as used today (and has been used for the last several decades) comprises Palestinian Christians and Palestinian Muslims, but not Jews from what today are Israel, Gaza and the West Bank. I am afraid that refering to Krebs as a "Palestinian," or even a "Jewish Palestinian," in the "Arab or Middle-Eastern ethnicity" column of his entry would bring about accusations that it is a violation of NPOV to describe a 20th-century German Jewish "settler" in the Holy Land by such term. Whether the term "Palestinian" should be inclusive or exclusive of Jews from the Holy Land is an issue about which I do not wish to opine, and it would create controversy that goes above and beyond the scope of this simple article (a list of Arab and Middle-Eastern Americans in the U.S. Congress).

So what can be done? I can think of two options: Leaving Krebs off the article altogether, or else include him in the article due to his having spent his formative years in Mandatory Palestine but listing him not as a "Palestinian," but as a "New Yishuv." The term "New Yishuv" refers to the Jews who settled in the Holy Land in the late 19th and early 20th centuries after the rise of the new Zionist movement (see Yishuv), which is as good a description as any for Krebs and his parents. While I would prefer that Krebs not be listed at all (since I don't believe that he qualifies), I could live with his inclusion so long as he is described as a "New Yishuv" (or such alternate name that would differentiate Krebs both from European Jews and Arab Palestinians); also, if Krebs is to be included, his correct name should be used so that the link goes to his Wikipedia article and is not a dead link (as is currently the case).

I certainly think that we should hear the opinion of other editors before making a decision. In the meantime, I will return the article to the status quo ante (in which Krebs was not listed) and leave in explanation that there is an open discussion on the subject in the Talk page. When I initially reverted the inclusion of Krebs in the article, I was thanked by @User:Shilonian, and I'm sure that other editors agreed with the reversion, so leaving Krebs in the article probably will result in someone else reverting it without an invitation to the Talk page discussion. To make it easier for interested editors to participate in the discussion, I will copy and paste what we have discussed so far as a new section, under the title "John Hans Krebs."

I look forward to hearing from other editors, and I hope that we can come to a consensus without unnecessary controversy. AuH2ORepublican (talk) 05:15, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

Shouldn't Jews, Armenians, Persians and others be counted?

Most of these people are of Arab (specifically Lebanese descent). Shouldn't we include ethnic Jews (who are of Levantine extraction), Armenians, etc? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.187.211.251 (talk) 18:22, 23 December 2018 (UTC)

Armenians qua Armenians are not Middle-Easterners, given that Armenia is in the Caucasus, which by no means is considered part of the Middle East. Of course, there are a lot of ethnic Armenians in the Middle East (particularly in Lebanon), and if a Lebanese-American with Armenian (or French, or Greek, etc) ancestry is elected to Congress he certainly should be listed in the article.

On the other hand, Persians are Middle-Eastern, and any Persian-American congressmen should be listed here. However, to date, there have not been any Persian-American members of Congress.

As for Jewish members of Congress, this is what I wrote in this article's Talk page soon after the article was created:

Regarding Jewish-American congressmen, there already is a Wikipedia article devoted to such group. I am not aware of any Jewish-American congressmen whose ancestors lived in the Middle East during the past, say, 200 years (if we look back 1,500 years then just about every member of Congress, Jew or Gentile, is of "Middle Eastern ancestry"), but if any descendants of recent Levantine Jews or Iraqi Jews have served or go on to serve in Congress, then my personal opinion is that they should be added to this article as well, since otherwise it could be seen as saying that a Jewish Iraqi is not a "true Iraqi."

Since I wrote such comment, no one had objected to what I proposed. If you feel strongly that persons whose ancestors left the Middle East over 1,500 years ago should be listed as "Middle-Eastern Americans," then, as I warned before, be ready to list a substantial majority of members of Congress (given that most Europeans have partial ancestry from early-medieval Anatolia, Persia and (particularly in Spain and Portugal) Arabia. AuH2ORepublican (talk) 20:41, 23 December 2018 (UTC)

What Europeans have ancestry in Anatolia, Persia, and Arabia?76.187.211.251 (talk) 22:15, 24 December 2018 (UTC)

Are you seriously asking what Europeans have ancestors from Anatolia, Persia and Arabia from *1,500 years ago*? Probably most of them. Are you that ignorant about history, genealogy and mathematics?

In any event, when someone in the U.S. uses the term "Middle-Eastern American," they do not mean someone whose most recent Middle-Eastern ancestor emigrated over a millennium ago. AuH2ORepublican (talk) 00:17, 25 December 2018 (UTC)

As for Anna Eshoo's mother, she wasn't an Armenian Iraqi, she was an Armenian who moved from Armenia to Iraq and later moved to America. And had she been an actual Armenian Iraqi (born and raised in Iraq of Armenian parents), then the proper course would be to add "Iraqi" to the column with Anna Eshoo's Middle-Eastern ethnicity. Had her mother been an Armenian Iraqi we would not add "Armenian" to her Middle-Eastern ethnicities just as we wouldn't add "Irish" were her mother an Irish Iraqi, because neither Armenian nor Irish are Middle-Eastern ethnicities. AuH2ORepublican (talk) 00:51, 25 December 2018 (UTC)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_personal_attacks — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:6001:E7C4:1E00:EC26:AFD2:F003:1B57 (talk) 03:30, 27 December 2018 (UTC) Also, for Europeans, they might only have a tiny percentage of West Asian or North African DNA, except maybe Southerners. For Jews, it is the majority. And please change Irish to Greek.2605:6001:E7C4:1E00:C418:FB0E:3A59:EAB3 (talk) 22:43, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

John Hans Krebs

[In order for persons joining the discussion on whether Congressman John Hans Krebs should be included in the List of Arab and Middke-Eastern Americans in the Jewish Congress]] to gave the benefit of earlier discussions on the subject (both general and specific), I have copied and pasted the prior posts on the subject.] AuH2ORepublican (talk) 05:36, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

Regarding Jewish-American congressmen, there already is a Wikipedia article devoted to such group. I am not aware of any Jewish-American congressmen whose ancestors lived in the Middle East during the past, say, 200 years (if we look back 1,500 years then just about every member of Congress is of "Middle Eastern ancestry"), but if any descendants of recent Levantine Jews or Iraqi Jews have served or go on to serve in Congress, then my personal opinion is that they should be added to this article as well, since otherwise it could be seen as saying that a Jewish Iraqi is not a "true Iraqi."

What do you think? User:AuH2ORepublican|AuH2ORepublican]] (talk) 19:34, 24 December 2017 (UTC)

There are always going to be definitional issues with a list of this sort, but I don't think people looking for Middle Eastern American politicians would expect to find a list of all Jewish politicians, especially since there's a separate list for that. On the other hand, I have reinserted John Krebs into the list as he migrated to the US after growing up in Palestine; was a member of the class of “Palestine refugees“; and actually held Palestinian citizenship. I feel that it would be perverse to exclude him.

Joe in Australia (talk) 02:20, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

@User:Joe in Australia, I understand your point about Congressman Krebs having grown up in the Middle East, in what was then the British Mandate of Palestine (or "Mandatory Palestine"), but listing Krebs in the article will create several problems that would be absent if we were to list, for example, a child of Israelis or even a descendant of 18th- and 19th-century Jews from the Holy Land.

First of all, Krebs's parents were Asknenazi Jews from Germany, so his family hadn't lived in the Middle East for over a millennium. Krebs was not a "Middle-Eastern Jew" in the sense that we use the term to describe a descendant of Israeli Jews or of Iraqi Jews.

Second, Krebs himself was born in Germany, didn't arrive in Mandatory Palestine until he was 6 or 7, and while he had a "Palestinian" passport when he emigrated to America at age 19, he was not a "citizen of a Middle-Eastern country" in the sense that we use the term today, given that he was either a stateless person (having repudiated or otherwise lost his German citizenship) or else a British subject residing in Mandatory Palestine. There was no sovereign country in the Holy Land whose citizenship he could claim.

And third--and what troubles me the most--the term "Palestinian American," as used today (and has been used for the last several decades) comprises Palestinian Christians and Palestinian Muslims, but not Jews from what today are Israel, Gaza and the West Bank. I am afraid that refering to Krebs as a "Palestinian," or even a "Jewish Palestinian," in the "Arab or Middle-Eastern ethnicity" column of his entry would bring about accusations that it is a violation of NPOV to describe a 20th-century German Jewish "settler" in the Holy Land by such term. Whether the term "Palestinian" should be inclusive or exclusive of Jews from the Holy Land is an issue about which I do not wish to opine, and it would create controversy that goes above and beyond the scope of this simple article (a list of Arab and Middle-Eastern Americans in the U.S. Congress).

So what can be done? I can think of two options: Leaving Krebs off the article altogether, or else include him in the article due to his having spent his formative years in Mandatory Palestine but listing him not as a "Palestinian," but as a "New Yishuv." The term "New Yishuv" refers to the Jews who settled in the Holy Land in the late 19th and early 20th centuries after the rise of the new Zionist movement (see Yishuv), which is as good a description as any for Krebs and his parents. While I would prefer that Krebs not be listed at all (since I don't believe that he qualifies), I could live with his inclusion so long as he is described as a "New Yishuv" (or such alternate name that would differentiate Krebs both from European Jews and Arab Palestinians); also, if Krebs is to be included, his correct name should be used so that the link goes to his Wikipedia article and is not a dead link (as is currently the case).

I certainly think that we should hear the opinion of other editors before making a decision. In the meantime, I will return the article to the status quo ante (in which Krebs was not listed) and leave in explanation that there is an open discussion on the subject in the Talk page. When I initially reverted the inclusion of Krebs in the article, I was thanked by @User:Shilonian, and I'm sure that other editors agreed with the reversion, so leaving Krebs in the article probably will result in someone else reverting it without an invitation to the Talk page discussion. To make it easier for interested editors to participate in the discussion, I will copy and paste what we have discussed so far as a new section, under the title "John Hans Krebs."

I look forward to hearing from other editors, and I hope that we can come to a consensus without unnecessary controversy. AuH2ORepublican (talk) 05:15, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

Rahm Emanuel

I have added Rep. Rahm Emanuel whose father was born in the Middle East. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.252.85.218 (talk) 19:28, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

Please see discussion on John Hans Krebs (above). AuH2ORepublican (talk) 23:01, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

This page has been nominated for an AfD

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_Arab_and_Middle_Eastern_Americans_in_the_United_States_Congress. Please check it out, vote, and comment. All I ask is that you read my rationale carefully before voting. GergisBaki (talk) 18:25, 29 July 2019 (UTC) How do we access this? 188.247.79.63 (talk) 08:01, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

Moving forward

Now that the "Articles for Deletion" process has concluded, with the consensus being that we should keep the article (see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Arab and Middle Eastern Americans in the United States Congress), I think that we should seek consensus on some of the problems with the article that were identified during the AfD process. I'm inviting the editors who commented at the AfD--User:GergisBaki, User:Steeletrap, User:George Al-Shami, User:PlainLawSam08, User:Joe in Australia, User:QuestFour, User:BD2412, User:Al Ameer son, User:John Pack Lambert, User:CaptainEek--to comment here regarding outstanding matters.

I believe that the major issues remaining are (i) whether the term "Arab Americans" is so problematic that it should be removed from the title and instead specifically include the terms "Lebanese Americans, Syrian Americans and Palestinian Americans" in the title (with "Jordanian Americans," etc. being added when persons with such Arab ethnicity are elected to Congress; (ii) whether Somali Americans should be listed in the article despite Somalis not being Arabs and Somalia not being an Arab country (albeit a country that belongs to the Arab League due to shared religious and cultural ties to Arab countries across the Red Sea); (iii) whether Americans who descend from non-Arab native peoples of Arab countries, such as Assyrians/Chaldeans or Kurds from Syria or Iraq, should be included in the article; and (iv) whether the problematic term "Middle Eastern Americans" should be substituted with "Assyrian Americans" (and, if Kurdish-Americans are elected to Congress someday, "Kurdish-Americans") if (iii) is answered in the alternative. If any of you believe that there are any other outstanding matters, please list them in this section of the Talk page so that we may discuss them.

I ask each interested editor to comment on the four issues that I listed above. My opinion on these four questions are (i) the term "Arab Americans" should be kept, and adding the names of specific Arab ethnicities to the title (they already are included in each entry within the article) is unnecessary and cumbersome, (ii) Somali Americans should not be listed (in fact, I believe that such exclusion was unanimous among those discussing the issue at the AfD page), (iii) Americans who descend from non-Arab native peoples of Arab countries should continue to be listed in the article, since they have similar experiences as their Arab countrymen when they immigrate to the United States, and (iv) we should replace "Middle Eastern Americans" with "Assyrian Americans" in the title (and add, for example, "Kurdish Americans" to the title if and when a Kurdish American is elected to Congress).

There also is a more minor issue that I brought up at the AfD discussion page. I noticed that the Arab American Institute's "Arab American Roster" (see https://www.aaiusa.org/arab-american-roster) lists Congresswoman Debbie Mucarsel-Powell (D-FL), who immigrated to the U.S. from Ecuador at age 14 (Mucarsel is her maiden name, and Powell her married name), as an Arab-American elected official. I did some Googling and found that (i) the Mucarsel family in Ecuador is of Lebanese ancestry and (ii) Debbie Mucarsel-Powell was described as being of "Ecuadoran and Lebanese descent" in NBC News's article on the 2018 elections: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/latino-minority-voters-helped-drive-democrats-gains-u-s-house-n933706. I don't think that the fact that her Lebanese ancestors immigrated to Ecuador instead of to America should be held against her, anymore than John H. Sununu's Lebanese ancestors having immigrated to El Salvador (where his mother was born and raised) should be held against him. (John H. Sununu's father was of Palestinian ancestry, so his son, Senator John E. Sununu, would be listed in the article anyhow, but the principle still holds.) I think that Debbie Mucarsel-Powell (who is a naturalized U.S. citizen, and thus an American) should be added to the article and listed as a Lebanese American, but welcome the opinion of all interested editors.

I trust that we can achieve a consensus on these remaining issues. AuH2ORepublican (talk) 15:02, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

• In (i) I agree; on (ii) I disagree because the Arab American Institute does list Omar; (iii) I generally agree, (iv) I disagree because Middle Eastern Americans is a census-defined term and that opens up the unnecessary and cumbersome name in (i). Reywas92^Talk 19:25, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

User:GergisBaki, User:Steeletrap, User:George Al-Shami, User:PlainLawSam08, User:Joe in Australia, User:QuestFour, User:BD2412, User:Al Ameer son, User:John Pack Lambert, User:CaptainEek and User:Reywas92: You all have contributed in the recent oast to the discussion on what changes should be made to this article (and perhaps its title) in order to avoid the use of incorrect terminology or classifications and potential controversy. The current title keeps being misconstrued to encompass Jewish Americans, who have their own article and whose immigrant experience in the U.S. is different from that of immigrants from Arab countries. The issue of whether Americans of Assyrian/Chaldean ancestry (and of Kurdish or other non-Arab ancestries that are historical communities in Arab countries) should be included, as well as what name to use describe them ("Middle-Eastern" was disfavored by most in the "Articles for Deletion" discussion that I linked above, also remains outstanding. Another issue on which consensus needs to be reached is whether Somali-Americans should be listed despite being neither Arabs nor from an Arab country; Ilhan Omar currently is listed because, as User:Reywas92 points out, Somalia is in the Arab League and Omar is included in at least one reliable source that lists Arab-Anerican legislators. Please read this entire Talk page section and provide your input so that we can make decisions by consensus and make the scope of the article clear to everyone. AuH2ORepublican (talk) 12:11, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

Who is Middle Eastern?

As we all witnessed, the Middle East is not necessarily a set term. The region should be defined here for the sake of clarification. Not everyone on this list comes from an Arab country (with the appointment of Stephanie Bice coming up). I was wondering if this article should just say “List of Middle Eastern Americans in the United States Congress”, although I also wonder should this article is renamed that, we would be including potential North African members, unless they’re given a separate category?2603:8081:160A:BE2A:106C:7EAB:F4FF:5470 (talk) 13:58, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

When the article was created, it referred only to Arab members of Congress. I pointed out to the editor who created it that the term "Arab" would exclude non-Arabic speakers from Arab countries, such as Assyrians from Syria and Chaldeans from Iraq, which would treat two immigrant groups from the same country differently. The editor then changed the name of the article to include "Middle Eastern Americans" as well. (The first section of this Talk page discusses the origin of the title.) Subsequent discussion in the Talk page and, with much more detail, in a robust AfD (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_Arab_and_Middle_Eastern_Americans_in_the_United_States_Congress), has honed down, with partial success, what is meant by "Middle Eastern American" in this article. I wish that a brighter line had been drawn by consensus, but what we have is that all Arabs irrespective of region and non-Arabs if they are native peoples of Middle-Eastern countries are included in the article, which would include, say, Arab Moroccan Americans because they are Arab albeit not Middle Eastern (none have been elected so far, but an Arab Moroccan American was a strong contender in the Democratic primary in a Massachusetts congressional district, and had she won she would have been included in the article). So taking "Arab American" away from the title would only create more problems, and would go against the original intent of the article.

I truly welcome any input that you may provide to try to develop a consensus regarding the "hard cases" (Somalis, modern Israeli Jews, etc.). There was a lot of participation from editors in the AfD, but not after it closed without a consensus for largescale changes to the article. AuH2ORepublican (talk) 14:30, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

In terms of Armenians, in theory, if there was an Armenian-American member who’s family was indigenous to what is now Turkey, their ancestry would be listed as Turkish? Would this also apply to Greek-American members who’s ancestry is Anatolian? You wanted to include non-Arabs from predominantly Arab countries, but there are also minorities in countries considered Middle Eastern but not Arab per se. What if instead, the article was renamed “List of Middle Eastern and North African members of Congress”?2603:8081:160A:BE2A:8C08:C317:CC2E:9F6A (talk) 18:15, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

Most Greeks have Anatolian ancestry, but Turkey isn't really part of the Middle East (it was part of the Greek world in antiquity and has been linked closely with Europe since the Fall of Constantinople in 1453), and the Greek and Turkish immigrant experience in America has been far different from the immigrant experience from Arab countries. And given that the whole point of the article was to list Arab-American members of Congress, taking the "Arab" out of the name would be inappropriate, and it was rejected in tbe AfD. AuH2ORepublican (talk) 04:43, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

What a silly concept. Turkey is the middlest part of the Middle East, Eleuther (talk) 14:08, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

Rahm Emanuel

Keeping Emanuel off the list is anti-semitic. Are you to say that all the Jewish Israelis are not middle-eastern because some have ancestors from Europe? If your ancestors are from Israel then you are of Israeli descent and therefore of Middle Eastern descent. In fact DNA testing shows that Jews, including Ashkenazi Jews, have Levantine DNA strands. Why? The reason is that Jews descend from Judeans who were native to Israel. I'm not saying EVERY Jew should be added, but those of Israeli descent absolutely should be added. Otherwise, it's racism. Pennsylvania2 (talk) 17:13, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

No one disputes that Ashkenazi Jews (and Sephardic Jews, for that matter) have "Levantine DNA strands" from over a millennium ago; by the way, so do many non-Jewish Europeans. But the consensus that was established for this article was that Levantine Jews and Iraqi Jews should be included, since they are native peoples of the Middle East, whereas Israelis who immigrated there from outside the Middle East (irrespective of their religion) should not be included. Please read the discussion (above) on the case of Congressman Krebs, who was raised in what is now Israel but who was not included because his family came from Europe. Please also read the AfD for this article (also linked above) so that you can get a sense of how difficult it was to obtain a consensus about anything related to this article.

Regarding the specific case of Congressman Emanuel, it isn't that he has "some ancestors from Europe," it's that all of his great-great-grandparents were from Europe. Yes, his father was born in Jerusalem (then part of Mandatory Palestine), but to Moldovan Jews from what was then the border between Russia and Romania, and his father's original surname was Auerbach. Like all persons of Jewish ethnicity, Rahm Emanuel certainly descends from the Ancient Hebrews, but he does not descend from Levantine Jews, Iraqi Jews or any other Jewish populations of the Middle East from the past 1,500 years or so.

Also, please refrain from describing as "anti-Semitic" the consensus that was developed regarding criteria for inclusion. Please note that the original article listed only Arab Americans, and that only when I pointed out that it would discriminate against, for example, Chaldeans and Iraqi Jews for Arab Iraqis to be included but not members of those other native peoples of Iraq that the article's creator changed the name to include "Middle Eastern Americans" (in hindsight, given the controversies, not the best choice of terminology) and I then added the first two non-Arab members to the article (two Assyrian Americans, descended from non-Arab native populations of Syria). So the term "Middle Eastern Americans" was included in order *not* to discriminate against non-Arabs from Arab countries. AuH2ORepublican (talk) 21:28, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

What about David Levy Yulee who had a Moroccan father. That is middle-eastern and he should be added. Pennsylvania2 (talk) 01:23, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

David Levy Yulee's family were Sephardic Jews who were expelled from Spain in the 15th century and settled in Morocco. They were not Levantine Jews. Also, Morocco is not in the Middle East. AuH2ORepublican (talk) 02:52, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

Armenians as West Asian Americans

Some West Asian Americans like are Armenians and Azerbaijanis, as well as other West Asian groups are considered as being of West Asian/Middle Eastern origin or White people/European American origin while in some cases like other trans-continental regions or people who do not fit into the current racial classifications of the United States may be considered as part of other racial and ethnic groups. ItsLife1 (talk) 20:28, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

No, Western Asian is not the same as Middle Eastern. Armenians are neither Arab nor Middle Eastern. I see no need to redefine this article to expand it. Reywas92^Talk 21:40, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

I agree; adding Armenians would go far beyond the scope of this article. AuH2ORepublican (talk) 20:54, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

Undone revision

Hello @AuH2ORepublican:,

You seem to be misguided by my edits on lists of Congresspeople. I have in fact been editing this list and several other all at once. When I claim they are being changed to look like "similar articles," the examples I had in mind are List of presidents of the United States, List of vice presidents of the United States, and List of justices of the Supreme Court of the United States, to name a few. You should also note that an important change I made on each of these edits was to properly list the House representatives' districts, rather than just the states, given that only senators represent the entire state. I also noticed on the page you reverted specifically that there were issues with sorting alphabetically by name, which I also fixed. We should consider reinstating my edit.

Thrakkx (talk) 19:50, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

@Thrakkx:, with all due respect, I don't see how articles listing Article II and Article III officers are "similar" to articles that list ethnic minorities in Congress. Before your "complete overhaul" of the article on LBTQ members of Congress, there were over a dozen articles listing members of Congress, and all of them included full color shading for the political party of the member. Moreover, in the case of articles in which specific ancestries or tribal affiliations were included in a column (to wit, the ones for Native Americans, Hispanics/Latinos, Arabs/Middle Easterners and Asians/Pacific Islanders), such column has always been right next to the member's name, not all the way to the right. Those were large-scale changes that you shouldn't make without discussing your proposal in the Talk page of each article--and please keep in mind that these are separate articles with separate histories--and obtaining a consensus from the editing community. Please note that it is pretty important to distinguish, for example, whether an Arab-American Representative is of Lebanese ancestry or of Iranian ancestry, and pushing such information all the way to the right after dates of service is not something that should be done willy-nilly, particularly based on the presentation in "similar articles" that (i) you just overhauled and (ii) did not have an equivalent to the ancestry column.

As for your comments regarding congressional districts, that has been discussed in Talk pages for one or more articles listing members of Congress, and there wasn't a very strong opinion on either direction. Yes, representatives are elected by district, not (except in single-member states or under exceptional circumstances in the past) statewide, but providing that someone represents the 43rd district of California or the 11th district of Ohio does not really say anything to 99% of readers. Personally, I tend to prefer such information being provided--I'm in that 1% minority of readers that knows what counties are in the FL-02 and in the MI-08--but even you realized the pitfalls of trying to include such information, which is why you gave up and wrote "several districts" for a dozen or so NY and CA congressmen in the article listing Jewish members of Congress.

So please discuss your proposals in the Talk page of each article, and obtain a consensus, before making such changes. You should have done the same for the articles that list members of Congress belonging to particular religions, but I'm not going to revert those (someone else might, though) because those articles didn't have an ancestry column for you to move. I do think that you should change back how the party designations are colored in those articles, and discuss it in their Talk pages, since shading the entire cell, believe it or not, is how the party was shown in every single article that listed members of Congress until you started editing them a few days ago.

I thank you for your interest in improving the Congress articles, and your willingness to do perform difficult tasks like listing every district number that members in each article have represented. However, your idea of what "improves" an article may not be shared by the editing community writ large, so you should obtain a consensus before going full bore and making large-scale changes. AuH2ORepublican (talk) 21:44, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

@AuH2ORepublican: I will try to reply to this long response. That's fine that you don't find "Article II and III" officers in a similar boat to Congresspeople, but you may find that few members of the general public will feel the same, let alone understand what Article II and III officers are. I will point out that in my transformation of List of LGBT members of the United States Congress, I was thanked by one of the people watching over the article, because my changes helped resolve some of the issues regarding out Congresspeople that had been discussed in its talk page, and also simplified the article's layout. I apologize if you dislike my changes, and I encourage you to consider fixing the issues in this article that I pointed out. I made bold edits. Thanks for your input.

P.S. As for "giving up" on the Jewish list, I have trouble with rowspan; it messes with my head. I'm coming back to that page. You'll notice I did the same with the Mormon list and fixed it later on.

Thrakkx (talk) 22:03, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

@Thrakkx:, I agree with the editor that thanked you regarding the "coming out" information that you provided regarding LGBT members of Congress. The changes that I "disliked" had to do with your removal of coloring for the party designations, replacing it with a thin line to the left that makes it a lot more difficult to tell when scrolling down if one of the parties has dominated. And, of course, my reversals to other articles (not for the LGBT article, which I did not revert, nor did I for the religion articles) was not because I "disliked" your edits, but because you made large-scale changes without discussing it and obtaining a consensus in the Talk page first. Yes, you can be Bold, but if you go too far someone will object and you'll end up having to convince people in the Talk page anyhow, which is why, before spending too much time on edits, I like to run it by the Talk page first. AuH2ORepublican (talk) 22:13, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

@AuH2ORepublican: My parting advice for you is: when you revert someone's edit, and they come to the talk page to discuss that decision, consider writing in such a way that doesn't send a condescending and attacking tone (and if you didn't mean it that way, make sure your words cannot be interpreted as such). Part of the experience of obtaining consensus is positivity :) Thanks Thrakkx (talk) 22:44, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

I like consistency, though these were relatively consistent already and these weren't all needed for all these pages, but they do still look nice so thanks for your effort. Namely a couple things I don't like is the centering of the notes, which looks weird with the combination of long and short text, and the removal of background color for incumbent members. Agree with AuH2O that ancestry column should be right next to the name as the primary information the pages provide. What I did like about the LGBT list was combining the tables into one for a simpler layout, but I do think the notes need to all be left-aligned. Unfortunately I'm not aware of a way to code alignment for a whole column so unless it's done for the whole table (which I don't think was bad before) it has to be formatted on each cell. With respect to districts, it's fair to include the number, but it would be better to spell the word out as well. Reywas92^Talk 22:17, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

I agree with you, which is why I made the changes: they look nicer. The party information is still conveyed visually. Thrakkx (talk) 22:44, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

Members of Congress of Turkish descent

Should members of Turkish descent start to be included in this list as according to Wikipedia and multiple articles/sources, Turkey is in the middle east? Soapallsm (talk) 17:24, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

"Middle Eastern Americans" was added to the article's name (at my suggestion, which I now regret) in order not to exclude descendants of non-Arab native populations of Arab countries (such as Assyrians/Chaldeans). There was an AfD regarding the article's name and who should be included, and no real consensus was reached. Maybe there should be a new AfD. In the meantime, there haven't been any Turkish Americans elected to Congress (although there are a few 2022 candidates with a chance of winning). AuH2ORepublican (talk) 19:15, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

Please note that Soapallsm is yet another Marquis de la Eirron sock and as a result has been blocked --Slp1 (talk) 17:14, 20 April 2022 (UTC)

@Slp1: Yes, I saw that; that Marquis sure gets around. If you're the one who caught those ten or so socks a few days ago, thank you for putting in the work; I've had to report the Marquis's sock-puppets on many occasions, so I know how time consuming it is. But this one wasn't obvious to me; he's getting sneakier, but eventually he just can't help himself and will start editing LGBT politicians and party-switchers and politicians convicted of crimes and give up the game.

BTW, I saw that you reverted the sock's one edit to the main article, but I reverted your reversion because that was a case of a stopped clock being right twice a day (he returned longstanding and relevant information that had been deleted, I believe inadvertently, when some footnotes with reliable sources were added to the column); it's a change that I would have made had the sock not gotten there first. I reverted because it was quicker than adding back the info to each entry; I hope that you don't mind.

Cheers, AuH2ORepublican (talk) 00:19, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

Discussion: Somalia is not the Middle East.

Hi All, I would invite discussion on the possibility of removing the Honorable Representative Ilhan Omar from this list as she is Somalian and not Arab or Middle Eastern. I hate to lecture you but just as a matter of basic geography, Somalia is not in the Middle East, but is located in the Horn of Africa. And Somalia was not settled by the Arabs. I think whoever included Rep. Ohmar in this article doesn't understand the distinction between an Arab and a Muslim. A Muslim is an adherent to the faith of Islam while Arab's are an ethnic identity. Best regards, ~Whig 20:51, 6 March 2023 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Whig4life (talk • contribs)