Talk:List of Eagle Scouts/Archive 1

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Administrative

Naming

based on Wikipedia:Naming conventions, this list should be moved to List of Eagle Scouts. Gentgeen 06:03, 31 Dec 2003 (UTC)

That appears to have been done. --Amoore 01:04, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Regarding removal of names

To quote Eagle scout:

Once an Eagle scout, one is always an Eagle scout.

Therefore, the killers can not be removed from the list and can not have their Eagle status revoked, as this conflicts with the Boy Scouts of America's rules. Segekihei 01:48, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Eagle Scout category and bios

I'm making sure that everyone on the list who has a Wiki article has the fact that they are an Eagle Scout in their write and have the Eagle Scout category on their page. Rlevse 11:26, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Disambiguation (dab)

I just finished fixing the articles that linked to Eagle Scout, changing them to Eagle Scout (Boy Scouts of America): these pages will now show up from what links here on the Eagle scout rank (Boy Scouts of America) page.

  • I did not change user or talk pages.
  • I did not change pages that refer to the US and Phillipine Eagle Scout in one link. I might go back and clean those up later.
  • Cleaned up Queen's Scout and Eagle (disambiguation)
  • The one exception was Michael Moore: his page is currently protected due to some controversy.

I also made minor changes where the article stated "former Eagle Scout".

I also added the tag for Eagle Scout category for pages that did not have them.

  • I did not add the Eagle Scout tag for McMahon and Judge as that page involves two people.
  • I see that Rlevse added the tag.

I also fixed SMS (comics) to link to Eagle Awards (a UK comic book award) instead of Eagle Award (a redirect to Eagle Scout). --Gadget850 12:22, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Gadget850 and I were working on almost the same task at the same time. I just finished mine. What I did was go through this whole list (except Moore which is locked) and ensure their article mentions they are Eagles and have the Eagle category, as well as, if applicable, their Disinguished Eagle Scout status and add that catergory in. Yesterday I made the DESA category and list. I also created articles for some who were missing articles (but not all of them). Rlevse 16:47, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Eagle scout and Eagle Award now do not have any incoming links: I am going to submit these for deletion. --Gadget850 12:26, 9 January 2006 (UTC) No, I'm not. Per Redirects for deletion they don't need to be deleted. --Gadget850 03:22, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Now that I finished fixing the dabs, a number of people now show up from what links here. I have added all the new ones except McMahon, --Gadget850 03:22, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism, Reverts & Protection

Protect?

I think that this will do absolutely zero good, but I think that this page should be protected. The page has been vandalized several times in the last month or so, presumably by the same user using different IPs/usernames...Segekihei 23:48, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Reversion

I've just reverted the edits by User:Sisterina. I've re-added the removed names (I'm sorry, but they were given the title Eagle Scout before going on to do the things they did), and removed the added names as neither appears to be notable ("Alvin Joseph Michael Reed" returns 3 hits from Google, and "Finis White" returns 41, most of which appear to be geneology material). --Sillydragon 05:49, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)

"Finis White"+scout returns 3, but one of those is a Wikipedia mirror. See also Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Finis White. Dbiv 18:49, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)
See the requests for page protection for more on User:Sistertina and her desire to have Mr. White and Mr. Reed added to this list. Also see the Eagle Scout article for more on her determination to have these two men in the Wikipedia.

Anonymous Vandal

Gentlemen, Please note that anon vandal 71.143.6.66 among his other similar aliases is repeatedly vandalizing this page and making unsubstantiated, unsourced entries. I respectfully inform you. CantStandYa 04:09, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Have we hit 3RR yet? Thesquire 08:01, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Unfortunately he can't be banned because it appears he is using an anonymizer to generate new IP addresses. CantStandYa 05:29, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

People rumored to be Eagle Scouts

It might be useful to have a list on this page as well of people who are rumored to be Eagle Scouts but aren't -- the ones listed in the above-referenced rotten.com article (Manson, Bill Gates, Oliver North, G. Gordon Liddy) for starters. Mindspillage (spill yours?) 01:00, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

This might be useful, as long as their real status is also indicated. For example, Bill Gates made Life Scout, but not Eagle. Thesquire 22:07, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
first, rumered is prob a bad word. rumered implys that this is not a cut and dry thing. you either are or you are not. this is not a secret organization who doesnt let its memebership be known. also, you will not be able to say who is and who is not. if I was to say that i do think person x is an eagle, how would you confirm? basiclly this list we have is our best idea of who is based on data we find without a true way (as in checking bsa records) for accuracy. you are opening a can of worms if you start such a list. person y gets on that list, someone says, no im sure that they really are. then how do we decide? Cavebear42 17:47, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Cavebear, I think you misunderstand me. I'm assuming there actually is a way to confirm whether or not someone is an Eagle Scout, either that the BSA directly says so or that a reputable source has said so. I think having a list (separate, at the bottom, clearly denoted as not being Eagles) would be useful to stop the spread of misinformation, so that people don't wonder whether or not their names are simply omitted. (I may be bold and put it there later, but now merely a quick reply...) Mindspillage (spill yours?) 20:32, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I do see your point but im saying that there is not a way (that i know of) to confirm or deny such things. i see that it could save the frequent removal of names which do not belong, but i wasnt aware that this was a problem (aside from the vanity we experianced earlier). my point is that we dont have a list of people who are not jews but are thought to be on the list of jews nor do we have a list of songs that are misinterpeted and therefor dont belong on the list of songs about suicide. there are a great deal of lists here and putting people up who are not eagles are giving credit where credit is not due in a move against what the norm is here. i would want to see more pages, as examples, setting a president for attempting to clear up common misconceptions before we proceed with such a move. Cavebear42 22:56, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Along this line, I've found sources that indicate Hank Aaron wasn't an Eagle Scout. However, official website of the BSA lists him as a Silver Buffalo and he has appeard on a stamp honoring scouting. Is there a chance someone mistook these accomplishments as signs he was an eagle scout?Eaglescout1984 04:58, 05 August 2005 (GMT)

I did a bit of formatting to split this into a separate heading, adn forced the TOC so it would be visible. (Thanks Habap for fixing that stub) --Gadget850 20:47, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Ted Bundy, Eagle Scout?

I've heard multiple times that Bundy was an Eagle Scout. I'm currently looking for a reputable source supporting this. Worldtravller 19:47, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for looking it up first. If you haven't already done so, see the CRITERIA at the top of this page (which Bundy would meet). I know he was a Scout and probably a SM/ASM, possibly an Eagle. YIS, Randy, Rlevse 20:04, 21 February 2006 (UTC), Scouting project and portal coordinator. Rlevse 20:04, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Charles Manson

I removed Charles Manson since I don't think he ever was an Eagle Scout and was added as a slashdot prank.

If we can find (credible) evidence that he completed his scout training, I'm all for adding him back in. --Amoore 16:24, Mar 8, 2005 (UTC)

Henry Fonda, Jimmy Stewart, and Walter Cronkite

I saw so much conflicting info on whether these three people were Eagle Scouts, that I finally sent a letter to NESA about it. Terry Lawson, of Eagle Scout Services, NESA, BSA responded to me in a letter dated 09 June 2005 that these men are NOT Eagle Scouts, so please stop putting them in the list (they should be in the "incorrectly regarded as" list. Re: Fonda, he was a Scout and a Scoutmaster, but not an Eagle Scout (and yes, I know his daughter, Jane, incorrectly states his is one of us in her book). I also know Jimmy Stewart was a strong supporter of Scouting too--I think he was a Scout himself. As for Cronkite, I don't know if he supported Scouting or was a Scout. Bottom line is, NESA says they weren't Eagle Scouts, and that's what we should go with--that's what I'd call an official source, not books or web pages. If anyone would like to have a scan of this, leave a msg on my talk page on how to send it to you. Rlevse 16:34, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Good work. As a supporting document, it might belong on WikiSource. Yes, Stewart was a Scout and a Scouter, but not an Eagle.--Gadget850 17:10, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Good idea, Gadget850. I've put it up on [1] in an article called "Erroneous Eagle Scouts". It's also on my user page there (also Rlevse). The article also mentions Michael Moore. Rlevse 23:25, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

I got Jimmy Stewart's IMDB [2] page corrected! --Gadget850 ( Ed) 18:57, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Jim Rogers

I fixed the link for Jim Rogers. It was pointing to a Jim Rogers b. 1942 (too old for our guy) and had a middle initial of "B". Our Jim Rogers was b. abt 1950 (Eagle in 1965) and has a middle initial of "D". As it's a common name, wiki probably needs a disambiguation page for it. Rlevse 14:58, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Mormons

There seems to be a revert war going on about wheter some people should be listed as "Mormon Eagle Scouts" or not. Perhaps if Mormonism is so important and fundamental to Eagle Scouting, those scouts should be moved to List of Mormon Eagle Scouts. (yeah, I'm kidding.) Is there a good WP policy that pertains here? --Amoore 01:04, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

What is it that makes Mormon Eagle Scouts special? Is there a particular religious connection? -Willmcw 01:59, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
Not too much of a war, just me and User:Grazon making two reverts, several days apart. I don't see any good reason to list that these killers are Mormons, and it associates their Mormonism with their killing. --DDerby-(talk) 07:36, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Mormon Eagle don't always even want to be in the BSA.

grazon 08:51, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Mormons typically disliking the BSA, does not make every Mormon eagle notable. Even so, it may be an interesting fact about them, but the way it is currently worded seems to tie their mormonism to their status as killers. Perhaps to be fair, the article could mention all Eagle Scouts who are/were Mormon (and perhaps other religions if the religions have similar problems with the BSA?), but I don't think it's worthy of mention unless there's some controversy tied to the specific individual. Either way, until all such entries are noted, these two mentions of Mormon killers should be removed. --DDerby-(talk) 09:18, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
I've met several Eagle Scouts who were ambivalent, but that isn't of importance to this list. Until we've got a more concrete, relevant reason for including one religious designation, the "Mormon" tag should be removed. -Willmcw 21:19, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
As far as I know, the LDS Church uses Scouting as its youth program for male children. This means that a large fraction of BSA membership is directly affiliated with the LDS Church, and more than one person has speculated on how big an impact this has on BSA's various stances (anti-gay, for example). However, this has no bearing on whether or not certain people are eagles, and thus has no business being mentioned in this list.
Personally, I have not heard anything about Mormons not liking the BSA, but this may or may not be the case. Again, though, this has no bearing on whether or not certain people are eagles, and thus has no business being mentioned in this list.
A number of people still hold fierce predjudices against the LDS Church, for reasons both real and/or imagined. Not only does this have no bearing on whether or not certain people are eagles, and thus has no business being mentioned in this list, but the repeated mention/inclusion of the qualifier "Mormon" may be a violation of NPOV. As such, I come down unilaterally against tagging anyone on this list as Mormon. Thesquire 09:20, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
I am both a Mormon and an Eagle Scout, so I want to add that I have seen absolutely no indication that Mormons or LDS church leadership have anything but the most positive regard for the Boy Scouts. The Boy Scouts of America are a key part of the program for male youth in the church in the United States. High profile Church leaders, especially Thomas S. Monson, attend scout jamborees. Many church members actively participate in local council leadership, and are distinguished in their service such as by receiving the Silver Buffalo, etc. To draw any conclusion that the church or its members are opposed to scouting is a bad idea. Perhaps there are individuals Mormons who oppose scouting for some reason I can't even guess at, but I believe they are in the minority --RockRockOn 17:27, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
Seeing your comment makes me wish I had noticed this discussion and commented earlier. The comment by User:Grazon seems to be mistakenly interpretted by DDerby. I don't think he meant, to paraphrase, Mormons and/or the LDS Church typically dislike the BSA. I think he may have been referring to individual Scouts feeling unhappily pressured into participating in their Church's troop (by parents or church leaders). However, there are Scouts in many troops that don't want to be there. The generilization that this is only Scouts who are Mormon is a stereotype. I am not a Mormon but I am also unaware of any friction between the LDS leadership and the BSA leadership. Regarding the original discussion, I do not believe the word Mormon should be placed next to Eagle Scouts who are Mormons names' as, although it may be a fact, its unneeded presence is borderline NPOV. L1AM (talk - 'tribs.) 20:51, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Fictional

Snoopy

The Snoopy entry was bugging me, but I did not have the heart to kill it. When I found out that Archer was an Eagle, I created the new section. I was a bit ambivalent about it at first, but they do pass the notability test. --Gadget850 01:42, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Indiana Jones

Indiana Jones - From the article on The Last Crusade:

  • In the Boy Scout Scene, Indiana Jones is a Life Scout. There at least two are claims as to why this is:
    • 1) He was supposed to be an Eagle Scout, but the badges are not given out to anyone other than Eagle Scouts - So he had to be just one under. (Critics of this theory note that a costume department with a big budget could have just had one made.)
    • 2) Indiana Jones was a Life Scout in honor of Eagle Scout Steven Spielberg's father who had passed away recently and who earned the rank of Life Scout in his youth.

I'm not sure how to best word the Harison Ford entry and the Indiana Jones entry to best get this across. Also, in the movie he is a Life Scout but that dosen't mean the character never reached Eagle. --L1AM 01:14, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Malcom Reed

Listed in fictional section because he was called an Eagle Scout in the series (see footnote in article); note: although technically, as a Brit, he should either be a King Scout or a Queen Scout depending on the reigning monarch in that future--but that presupposes that system in still place in the future, they all may have changed to Eagle Scouts in the future. Also, he could also have dual citizenship. Also, keep in mind this is in TV/Movie land and they don't always get everything right-;) Rlevse 17:52, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Distinguished Eagle Scouts

I've created List of Distinguished Eagle Scout Award recipients, with a redirect from Distinguished Eagle Scouts, along with a Category:Distinguished Eagle Scouts. I'll be working these while adding with this list, to get them all up to date and linked, along with recipient bios. Rlevse 16:07, 7 January 2006 (UTC)


Notability

Instead of trying to develop our own criteria for notability, I propose that we follow the Notability guidelines. Thus, if the Eagle Scout is notable enough to rate a WP article, they are notable enough for this list. Hopefully, this should resolve some of the controversy we have seen over certain individuals.

If however, the individual does not rate a WP article, then the article should be sumbitted to Articles for deletion. If the article is deleted, then that individual should be removed from the list.

In consideration of this:

  • Michael J. Turon: in my opinion, this is a vanity article, it fails the Google test, and should be submitted for deletion. I will do this in the next few days if there are no objections. Submitted for deletion. Article deleted, list entry deleted. --Gadget850 01:19, 10 January 2006 (UTC) updated --Gadget850 ( Ed) 10:11, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
  • McMahon and Judge: I'm a bit abivalent about this one. It's not a good article as is, but has the potential to be better if someone took an interest. I have not yet added McMahon to the list.
  • William H. Gates, Sr. should be returned to the list. He has been on and off, but his article does meet the notability standard.
Concur with Gadget. Turon is a young scientist and has done nothing exceptional. McMahon and Judge are similar to Sheehan--died in combat and notable out of newsworthiness and have a wiki article; the article is weak, but worth keeping for now. I added a mil bio stub. Gates is a DISTINGUISHED EAGLE SCOUT and that alone warrants being on this list. Rlevse 16:56, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
I've added DESA tags for those on the list who are Distinguished Eagle Scouts.Rlevse 18:56, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Proposed guideline:

  • If the Eagle Scout meets the criteria per Wikipedia:Notability (people) to rate an article, then he is notable enough for this list. If it is believed that the article does not meet the criteria, then the article should be recommended for deletion per [Wikipedia:Articles for deletion|Articles for deletion]]. If the article is deleted, then the Eagle Scout in question should be removed from the Eagle Scout list.
  • A notable Eagle Scout who does not have an article should be added to the list using the same criteria. Development of a biography for such persons is encouraged. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 02:05, 14 January 2006 (UTC) updated --Gadget850 ( Ed) 10:45, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Agree. Yes, at a minimum we should do that.I'd even support following Wikipedia:Notability criterion, which is even higher. Rlevse 02:34, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Agree. The actual notability guideline that would be applicable would be Wikipedia:Notability (people), but since this is the guideline supposedly used for all of Wikipedia, this shouldn't be a higher standard than the one Gadget's proposed. -- Thesquire (talk - contribs) 02:48, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
Updated the proposal a bit per your comments. If we come to a consensus on this, I recommend we put it at the top of the talk page as a guideline. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 10:45, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

NOTE:Requirements codified and placed at top of page.Rlevse 16:43, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

dale isn't important

suing a famous group does not make one famous.

Lawsuits have made many people famous. Especially Supreme Court cases. -Willmcw 06:30, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes but he wasn't famous before the lawsuit and he lost so it isn't a landmark case.

grazon 15:38, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Boy Scouts of America v. Dale isn't just any lawsuit in regards to the BSA. "Landmark case" status is a POV matter, but every case has a winning and losing side so that is not the determinant. Dale and his lawsuit have had more effect on the BSA than, for example, "Percy Sutton, attorney, businessman (chairman of the board of City Broadcasting Corp.)" -Willmcw 17:48, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Percy's name is found on multiple generic lists of Eagle Scouts.

grazon 18:04, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Percy and Dale aside, this list is obviously too short. Though there are some red links, my guess is that there are scores or hundreds of additional blue links that could be added. There have been more than a million Eagle Scouts, after all. Could we add some of those "generic lists" as sources and work up from there? This list should be probably twice or five times as long as it is now. I also suggest that we try to make sure that biographies included in this list mention their subject's BSA rank. Cheers, -Willmcw

good idea.

grazon 18:41, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

I like "litigant": it's a bit more NPOV and it might pacify some of the deletists (or maybe not). --Gadget850 20:45, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

  • Is Dale still even an Eagle Scout? I thought he was the only person to date to have the Eagle rank revoked. 24.22.109.65 00:14, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
    • Once an Eagle, always an Eagle. He had his adult membership revoked, which is different. -- Thesquire (talk - contribs) 04:08, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
      • I do believe his NESA membership was revoked as well. Worldtravller 16:25, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
        • Probably true since NESA requires members to be "in good standing with, the Boy Scouts of America" [3]. However, he is still an Eagle Scout. — L1AM (talk - 'tribs.) 22:47, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Casey Sheehan

Currently, his entry reads:

Casey Sheehan, OIF casualty, son of anti-war "Peace Mom" Cindy Sheehan

Recently, an anonymous user, 155.84.57.253, has been removing the reference to his mother. Since his being noteworthy rests entirely on his mother's actions, it is my opinion that including her in his entry on the list is entirely appropriate. Any challenges to this need to be discussed here before altering his entry. Thesquire 02:18, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

People should be here on their own merit (or notoriety), not because his son is a billionare (Gates) or because his mother is politically active. Both Gates and Sheehan should be dropped from the list. CantStandYa 03:51, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

I can understand removing Gates from the list, but Sheehan's centrality in recent political controversy merits his presence on the list, at least for the time being. It's not like he's just Cindy Sheehan's son; he's her son whose death in service to his country compelled Cindy to action. When Cindy stops being notable, Casey will too, but until then it seems pertinent to include him on the list as a notable Eagle Scout. Thesquire 04:13, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
I agree with TheSquire: he is the catalyst for his mother's actions. I would change it to:
Casey Sheehan: US solider, died in combat during Operation Iraqi Freedom, son of Cindy Sheehan
FYI, for purposes of evaluating consensus, please note that 155.84.57.253 (talk · contribs) and CantStandYa (talk · contribs) are the same editor. -Willmcw 22:51, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
I get the NESA publication, Eagletter, and every month at the back it lists Eagles who have died serving in the military. I know offhand that Capt. Tristan Aitken of the U.S. Army, Capt. Russell Rippetoe, of the U.S. Army, and Capt. Benjamin Willson Sammis, of the U.S. Marine Corps have died in OIF and I'm sure there are others. It seems like Sheehan is on here because of his mom but maybe they should all be included like CantStandYa/155.84.57.253 says "on their own merit". L1AM
I disagree with that interpretation of CantStandYa's proposed criterion, because we'd then have to include the very, very long list of Eagle Scouts who were killed while serving. Sheehan's death is more notable because it was the immediate trigger for his mother's heavily-reported actions. Thesquire 09:08, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Again, I have to agree with TheSquire. Casey Sheehan, by himself, does not meet the notability test: he meets it only because of his mother. If she had not decided to take up the cause, we would never have heard of him. We all acknowledge that his death is tragic, but among the other 2000+ casualties, he simply does not standa out on his own.

Just to give you my point of view: I am a combat veteran of the 1991 Gulf War, some of my soldiers died in combat, and one of my former scouts died in Iraq this past spring. --Gadget850 14:48, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Casey Sheehan is not newsworthy, his mom is. If we added all the Eagle Scouts who died in combat, we'd have hundreds of pages. He would belong on any list of war dead, but he is not famous. Rlevse 20:09, 5 January 2006 (UTC) PS: However, since there is a Wiki article on him, I went and added the Eagle Scout category to his article, which no one had yet done. Rlevse 02:12, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

There is obviously a big split on whether on not to include Casey on this list. I see absolutely no consensus on the issue whatsoever. Since when does being the son of a newsworthy person make you famous and noteworthy yourself? I find it quite interesting that Femoyer, an Eagle Scout who was awarded the Medal of Honor, is not on this list and this discussion/adding/removal over Sheehan goes on. I find the criteria for including him shakey at best. No one has previously added Femoyer (one of only two known Eagles to receive the MOH), but Casey is inclued because of his mom? BTW, I'll add Femoyer when I get to the "F" section. The other Eagle Scout MOH recipient is Paige. Rlevse 13:02, 7 January 2006 (UTC) PS: I correct myself, there are three known Eagle Scout MOH recipients: Eugene Fluckey is the other one. Rlevse 00:28, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Femoyer and Paige were on my todo list: go ahead and add them. I believe that if an individual meets the notability criteria to have a WP article, then they are notable enough for the Eagle list. I've been checking the "what links here": my last several additions were from that and from the redirects. --Gadget850 15:31, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Gadget's criteria - rather than come up with a separate definition of who is notable for the purposes of this list, rely on the noteworthiness of the Eagles articles themselves. -- Thesquire (talk - contribs) 02:16, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
I still don't think Casey Sheehan warrants being on this Eagle Scout list, but in the interest of keeping the Scouting spirit among us Wiki Scouters, I'll agree to the standard that if they have or warrant a Wiki article, they can be on the list. Also, the concrete nature of this "self-imposed rule" is easy for us all to follow. I think we all agree we need a standard to keep the list manageable--after all, having all 1.3 million of us on it would be unmanageable to say the least. Rlevse 12:48, 8 January 2006 (UTC)


Candidates

I am uncomfortable with political candidates being listed on the page. Does candidacy alone make someone notable? evrik 21:26, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

See the inclusion guidelines at the top of this page and see Wikipedia:Notability (people). If you feel that the articles for Fawcett and Filson are not notable, then by all means recommend the articles for deletion. Lesh does meet the Google test [4] for notability. We had reached a concensus some time back to use the WP standards: this keeps our hands clean regardless of individual POV. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 23:33, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

If they are a candidate and lose, I'm okay with delisting them from our list, but their own separate article may or may not be worth keeping--standard Wiki rules would apply. If they win a state or national office, I think they should be on the list here, with an article. If they are a current candidate: is there something else they are notable for? If so, keep, if not, I could go either way on that one. I would not object totheir removal from the list. Fawcett may be otherwise notable, Filson probably isn't. Rlevse 01:21, 22 March 2006 (UTC) PS: I don't think Bobby Henderson is all that notable, but his case is so unusual and interesting I don't mind it being there-;). I don't think Sheehan is either, his mom is, but many think otherwise, oh well. Rlevse 01:27, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
I rather agree with you on the notability, and five years from now we might find those articles gone. I'd rather go with the WP standard than hack out one of our own and go through the edit wars of the past.--Gadget850 ( Ed) 01:39, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
See your point, but if someone has been elected to a state or national office, they'll meet the WP standards. Modify the need criteria I put up as you see fit, Ed. Rlevse 10:54, 22 March 2006 (UTC)


High ranking folks in other countries

http://users.aol.com/randywoo/bsahis/famous.htm

Nothing new there: I compared it long ago. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 02:30, 4 February 2006 (UTC)


Pending deletions

deleted Anthony P. Marzocca: This entry will be removed on 16 Feb 2006 if a citation is not provided. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 17:37, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Ditto. It does not meet the criteria for inclusion at the top of this talk page.Rlevse 17:43, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Emma and Ferguson

Thank you for your interest in this article. Please format your footnotes per the page standard. Ferguson looks like he may meet the criteria for inclusion (see top of the talk page), but Emma appears not to. Please provide more info on Emma or he will be deleted. You may want to get an account and write Wiki articles on them too. Rlevse 11:19, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Recent Additions and Suggested Changes

I just added Edgar Cunningham (first black Eagle Scout) and Alexander Holsinger (one millionth Eagle Scout). I also removed Randall Newton because the didn't meet that inclusion criteria. I'd also like to propose that instead of just putting "John Doe, athlete (baseball)" the team the person played for, the position they played or anything else a little more specific. (See Albery Belle or William Bradley on list) Also instead of just "astronaut" the flights they were on might also be included i.e. Apollo 11, etc.Worldtravller 19:28, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

  • Unfortunately, Cunningham fails the Google test. There are only two hits, and the one is a newspaper article [5] that he might be the first black Eagle Scout.
  • Alexander Holsinger is credited as the millionth Eagle Scout per Scouting Magazine, but other than that he fails the Google test.
  • There are other tests for notability per Wikipedia:Notability (people). If these entries can pass any of the other notability tests, then they should stay. If they are indeed notable, then articles should be developed. If not, then we should probably make mention of them in the EagleScout article.
  • The entry should be a very short synopsis that allows the linked article to do the work of telling the story. Also, by keeping it short, we don't get a lot of edit wars like we used to.

--Gadget850 ( Ed) 20:28, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

One line summary is plenty for this page (99% of the time) and Worldtravller is right that more than "astonaut" is warranted, but Ed is right to not be too wordy. Holsinger is no more significant than any of us, numerically speaking, so I'm removing him. Cunningham, IMHO, is historically significant and notable in that regard; but I'm changing the wording on him to reflect he may not be the first. Fourteen years is a long time for someone else to have made it, but also recall there were not many black Scouts back then.
  • Worldtravller: you whacked out the footnoting when you made these entries. You put in the ref but not the note part. I fixed it. Rlevse 22:24, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
Also Scouting didn't appear everywhere at once. It would have taken time for it to spread. I thought I had included everything when I put the footnotes in. Guess I didn't copy the format of the others as well as I thought I did. Thanks though. Worldtravller 01:20, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Lists and cites

I suggest that we NOT use lists such as The Congress and Scouting as the cite. Even though this particular list is from BSA, I have my doubts about some on it, such as Gordon Smith. If a politician's web site[6] does not show him as an Eagle Scout and DESA then I have my doubts.

Also: Cites should be added ONLY for red-link individuals. If that person has an article, the cite should go in the article. Adding cites here for everyone is going to get huge. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 19:15, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Upon reflection, I don't think we should have those lists in the references section. I know some of them are inaccurate (Hank Aaron is on many of them). Perhaps they should be moved to the talk page as a starting reference. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 21:00, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Every DESA through Dec 31, 2002 is verifiable with my page at: [7], which I built from an official BSA hardcopy from Terry Lawson. I have a few awarded after 2002 listed too. So, we can easily verify all but the most recent awardees. I agree with Gadget850, let's only use external links if they don't have an article. If we have an external link, let's list it on his article page, not here, otherwise our refs will be unmanageable. Also, make sure the link numbers in the "incorrectly regarded as" section stay updated. Rlevse 21:25, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Since Evrik converted the footnotes to Cite.php, the numbering scheme is now automatic. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 14:23, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

To sum up:

  • Do not use any of the many lists on the web as a cite. Always get an independent cite.
  • For people with articles: Add the cite to the person's article, along with the Eagle Scout category and, if awarded, the DESA category..
  • For people without an article: Add the cite to the entry. Consider starting at least the stub of an article.

--Gadget850 ( Ed) 14:23, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

  • For the three "incorrects" we have a letter from Terry Lawson on, leave those cites in. Rlevse 18:33, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Sure. I do believe I added the cite to each of the articles some time back. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 19:41, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
I procured the letter from Lawson, not you Ed-;) Rlevse 01:54, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Yes you did get it from Lawson. I added it as a citation to the articles on Cronkite, Stewart and Fonda. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 14:18, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
  • How did this article get tagged as Category:Articles lacking sources? Because it had so few citations. I was not happy when I finished trying to organize the citations on the page. I think they need to be redone again.
  • I think we should use lists such as The Congress and Scouting as a citation. Not everyone lists their Scouting experience the same because of political reasons or just personal preference. The BSA is pretty meticulous about stating someone’s involvement.
  • I disagree that citations need go in an individuals article. If we have the source, we should cite it here. I don’t know what to do about the citations, maybe we should make a page called List of Eagle Scouts/Citations?

When the page gets redone, I would advocate using some sort of op.cit reference, or pattern the references after those now being used in the Incorrectly regarded as Eagle Scout section. evrik 21:21, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

    • Making a List of Eagle Scouts/Citations would not work as the cites would be on a separate page. I just checked a few Featured Lists dealing with people; some of them have a cite for each person and some don't, so there is no requirement therefore. There are thousands of notable Eagles, if we list and cite each one, the length would be unmanageable. A tabular form of cite may work, but for now I prefer the form the article is in as of the minute I write this. Rlevse 01:54, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

PS: I'm putting the official BSA list(s) in the References section, as evrik has a good point there. Rlevse 02:02, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

OK. BSA and NESA should be good lists. The NNDB list is suspect IMHO. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 14:31, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
I don't trust NNDB either, I have found several errors in it. They are bad about updates too. Rlevse 18:04, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Another list

I stumbled onto NNDB.com, a relational database of noteworthy names. One of the items you can select on is Eagle Scout [8]. I've found a number of people on this list that are not on the WP Eagle list. I just need to verify the veracity of Eagle and see if they have a WP article. As usual, there are some inaccuracies, for example, Walter Cronkite is listed (I submitted an update). --Gadget850 ( Ed) 01:38, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

I've seen that list too. I don't trust it. If we can, we need to verify Hank Aaron. I've seen some conflicting reports on him. His Silver Buffalo is legit, I know. Rlevse 02:01, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that's why this is last list I am hitting. Everything gets independent verification. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 03:04, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Categories

I just did a quick tour: current BSA people categories are:

--Gadget850 ( Ed) 14:36, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

  • Shouldn't that be on the wikiproject page? evrik 15:10, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Fallen Eagles

Rotten dot com

Has anyone else looked at the site Rotten dot com? There are several people on the list whjo aren't on the wiki list. evrik 14:55, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Per page guidelines, we are not to use internet lists to add people to this article. (save a few stated exceptions such as the one confirmed DESA list and BSA lists) as many are inaccurate. Rlevse 19:54, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Another serial killer

Guidelines

I would like to update the guidelines. I went through the current version and clarified and codified several items. Please review the proposal and discuss here. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 18:47, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

I like it, much more readable and professional looking. Granted, mine was a rough draft (the one currently on the page). Rlevse 19:56, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
Excellent work, Gadget. --Habap 20:22, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Ooops. Forgot the Lawson note. I'll add that in. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 20:36, 30 March 2006 (UTC) added --Gadget850 ( Ed)

Done. Recommend that this be adapted to the other lists.--Gadget850 ( Ed) 14:36, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Notable?

Jack Bowen

Jack Bowen, The Dream Weaver : One Boy's Journey through the Landscape of Reality

  • Author, Olympian
http://www.almanacnews.com/story.php?story_id=1272
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/032132823X/002-3727814-8814445?v=glance&n=283155
1996 Olympic team
http://www.h2opolo.com/pologuide/profiles/bowen.html
http://www.dreamweaverphilosophy.com/jack.html#author
  • Is this a question? --Gadget850 ( Ed) 17:41, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
    • Yes, hence the question mark. evrik 17:51, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, he seems to meet the notability criteria. Can it be confirmed that he is an Eagle Scout? --Gadget850 ( Ed) 18:14, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

  • He just announced it on KQED during an interview. He was living on Coronado Island (off San Diego) when he got it. I just checked his homepage. Maybe I will mail him to verify. evrik 18:26, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

William Schwarz

I just removed this entry

I don't think it passes the notability test.

--evrik 18:26, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

While I agree on the notability (and given the editor's name it smacks of vanity), we shouldn't delete it right off. Per our guidelines above we should tag it and give some time for development. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 18:35, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Maynard

Will be deleted in two days if proof of notability not submitted. Rlevse 18:16, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Request for cite

Here is a boilerplate message to advise editors of a request for cite. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 18:54, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

You added an entry to the List of Eagle Scouts. Please see the guidelines listed on the talk page. You will note that the entry needs either a full article or a citation and must pass the notability test. If the entry is not cited within two days it will be deleted per the guidelines.
If you desire to identify yourself as a Wikipeida editor who is an Eagle Scout, please use the Eagle Scout userbox. For some examples of userboxes, take a look at the user page of Gadget850 or Rlevse. For a full listing of Scouting-related userboxes, see Scouting.

Very nice, Ed. I made a few tweaks.Rlevse 21:31, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Looks good. I'll probably move this up into a message box later. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 22:32, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
  • I hate to be a fly in the ointment, but I think we should move the addition to the discussion page, and include that in the boilerplate. We can say something like:
We've moved your entry to the talk page while you document the Eagle Scouts's notability.
Just my two cents. -- evrik 23:42, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
I think that if we simply add the {{citation needed}}tag to the entry, then anyone who looks will know the entry is suspect. I would rather assume good faith than bite an editor. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 01:47, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

William Keeler

This one is legit. His real name is William Henry Keeler, Cardinal is his title in the Catholic Church. He is also a DESA. Found him on my own/BSA DESA list and several web hits, easily verifiable as the person listed him on the DESA list too. See Church page on Keeler and other web sites, such as mine own. Rlevse 20:55, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Featured list

With a modicum of work, this could be a featured list. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 17:21, 16 June 2006 (UTC)


New layout

I've been working a new layout for this article. Please take a look at User:Gadget850/Sandbox2 and let me know your thoughts. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 14:30, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

I love it!Rlevse 14:33, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Please note that this is more than just converting to a table format. I have also updated and cleaned up the descriptions. I removed a lot of US or United States references that I felt were redundant, since the topic implicitly implies the US. The only down side is that the table format will be confusing to a novice editor, but we should be able to work that. BTW: Each table has a hidden comment that may help new editors. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 01:43, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

  • I really like it. evrik 15:46, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
  • I like the pictures added: very good improvement. I like the non-US words. I like the additional info. I like the icon for DESA much better than the cursive DESA. But I don't like the table, as it:
    • is not the Wikipedia normal bulleted list, for easy recognition that this is an alphabetical list
    • is not easily editable by novice users, who may well be daunted in either making a mess of it all, or not adding info into the page in the first place
    • wreaks havoc with the various browsers on the odd-sized screens (I now work on a 1283x980 window, and tomorrow on a narrow tall window) or simply the 800x600 screens.
  • Wim van Dorst (Talk) 21:54, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

OK. I updated the "E" section, keeping it as a bullet list. I made the eagle a bit smaller so as not to mess up the line spacing. Would it be better with the eagle to the left of the name? I also added (deceased) to some entries- do we want to do this? --Gadget850 ( Ed) 02:38, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

  • Yes, Ed, this is really a good improvement, in line with my wikifeeling. Eagle behind the name, and all information added that you can find. When it even wraps to a second line, that is no problem, as the layout is well handled with the bulletted list. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 21:58, 14 July 2006 (UTC).
    • I both the table and bullet formats. The table because it's more even and structured and the bullet for fewer format issues. I also vote for adding deceased if it applies. I prefer the gold eagle coming first, then the name. Rlevse 22:07, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Check the tables again for that size issue: I removed the width from the description column. On deceased: use (deceased), use the years (1946–1984) or use the genealogy symbol, a square with a slash [9]. Upon reflection, I will add US back for entries such as US senator vs. state senator. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 23:17, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

  • Reassessing the value of tables in the list of Eagle Scouts, I keep stating that they are not useful, in my humble opinion. The resulting page is blocky, and overweight. I personally much prefer bulleted lists for these kind of lists. Sorry, Ed, I don't think tweaking the sandbox page will change anything about this personal view of mine. But that's just me. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 22:34, 17 July 2006 (UTC).
Hey- your opinion here. I've just been fiddling with the table syntax (a bit different from HTML) and was curious how it looked to you. I would really like more feedback on this, but so far only you and Randy. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 00:57, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
I like the tables, more balance and structure.Rlevse 01:03, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Vote

I would like to get a consensus on this, please. A table format like User:Gadget850/Sandbox2 or a list format as it is now. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 16:19, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Vote table or list:

  • table Rlevse 16:31, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
  • list --evrik 16:06, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Presuming that Wim would have voted for list, I'm closing the vote. With no consensus, I'm going to go with enchanced list. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 12:44, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

  • OK. Everyone had a chance and it was fairly done.Rlevse 15:54, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

New format

The biggest change is in the use of the gold eagle instead of the DESA text and the addition of a few thumbnails. I have also gone through and updated each entry, as several had aged and were no longer quite correct. I would like some feedback on this, so let me know what you thing. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 14:39, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

As each section is edited, I am adding a comment at the top:

Please see the requirements listed on the talk page before editing. Entries that do not meet these requirements are subject to removal.

I don't know if it will help, but it is probably more noticeable than the note that was at the top. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 16:26, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Formatting: 

  1. Gold Eagle image if DESA, space
  2. name
  3. space (deceased) if dead
  4. semicolon;
  5. Description sentence: First letter cap, end with period. Wikify, but don't repeat previous links.

Rlevse 14:20, 4 September 2006 (UTC) & Gadget850

Cleanup

While going through this, I have gone through each article and have updated the list entry to match. I have also noted the following issues:

  • J. Willard Marriott is tagged as an Eagle in his article, where J.W. Marriott, Jr. is not. It looks like Jr. should be noted as Eagle and DESA, but not Sr. Any verification on this?
  • Ray Suarez needs an Eagle category added to his article. The article is currently tagged with a copyvio, so we need to wait until that is cleared to cat it.

--Gadget850 ( Ed) 17:56, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Jr. is the DESA, not Sr. Please fix both. I fixed both. See any that need the project tag?Rlevse 18:12, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
I saw you got to them first. I think I'm done with this phase. Next is to tackle the to-do lit at the top of the page, then run through your DESA list. For example, a random search shows Ray Malavasi and John D. Waihee III have WP bios. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 19:25, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Maintenance

I just went through the Eagle Scout and DESA categories and matched them to the list. Several articles have the Eagle cat but are missing from the list- I have noted these above so that they can be verified. I fixed a number of cats where the name was mispelled or some similar error. I added the cats to several articles that where they were missing. Sam Skinner has two articles- I switched the list to the better one and tagged both articles for a merge.

--Gadget850 ( Ed) 16:29, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

The Wikipedia is a SCAM

Charles Manson is certainly a notable Eagle Scout, but every time he gets added here, he gets deleted. Therefore, the entire Wikipedia is a sham. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.214.156.48 (talk • contribs)

Do you have a cite such as a newspaper article? You may note that Russell Henderson and Charles Whitman are listed here as they have been verified. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 23:46, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Featured List

We have done a LOT of work on this article of late, and I would like to promote it to a featured list (FL). Some things we need to make this happen:

  • Go through the requirements at What is a featured list?
    • The basic reqirements are : useful, comprehensive, factually accurate, stable, and well-organised. I think we meet all of those. We have not had an edit war in quite a while, and hopefully the guidelines we have developed have resolved this.
  • Finish going through the DESA list before we put it up for FLC.
  • Redlinks need to be resolved- it looks like some featured list candidates are having issues with this.
  • We need to ensure any images used have the proper tags. Astronauts and politicians should be easy as those should be government photos. While the images are not central to this article, I think they are nice.
    • Marsalis is questionable, as this is from an album cover, and can only be used in the article on the album. removed
    • Sid McMath has an obsolete tag- I asked the uploader to take a look at it. fixed

Please let me know your thoughts on this. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 13:52, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Excellent status/reality check and I agree. I'll help as time permits. Rlevse 14:12, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
I count four red name links. How many do you think are worth making (stub) articles of vs deleting? I think this and a good lookover for format errors is all we need to list at FLC. The DESA list is pretty well worked for ones we can prove, though a few possible/probables may be left we could add later. Rlevse 14:26, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm for removing them and putting them on an archived list of known but not notable. If someone want to add them, then they can create an article. I am also inclined to remove the images from the incorrectly regarded section as it distracts from the focus of the article. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 13:26, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Do we really need the separate DESA criteria here? This looks to be covered my the main citeria. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 13:46, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
See my edits just done. My suggestion is you give it one last eyeball on format, consistency, etc and then list for FL. Rlevse 14:07, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Chris Smith

I investigated Chris Smith some time back. He is on the BSA and the Congress list (and the deprecated NNDB list), but I can't independntly verify that Chris Smith (US politician) is the one. He is on the list of possible Eagle Scouts that are unverified on the Investigated entries list. I welcome any citation that shows that he or some other Chris Smith in Congress is an Eagle Scout. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 20:25, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I lean to removing him, it's a very common name. Rlevse 20:30, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
Done until we can get verification. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 21:02, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Photos on Eagle page

  • Mike Rowe
    Mike Rowe
  • Percy Sutton
    Percy Sutton
  • Manuel Rivera
    Manuel Rivera
  • Beasley Reece
    Beasley Reece
  • Michael Bloomberg
    Michael Bloomberg
  • Albert Belle
    Albert Belle
  • Marion Barry
    Marion Barry

Here are some alternate photos we may want to consider using. --evrik 20:27, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

We had the Sutton photo in once, but he's the one in the background--MalcomX is in the front; so we took the photo out. Bluford you can barely see. Barry is a known crack user. On a positive note, I really like the Rivera one and the Rowe one. Reese and Belle-I'm neutral on their photos. I say we let Gadget850 choose which ones to use in the final version before he lists it at FL candidates. Just my two cents. Rlevse 21:28, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Another Selection

Lawrence_Ferlinghetti

I do like this photo ... --evrik 20:30, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Nice photo, but it's wide format and that may be an issue. Again, I defer to Gadget on final choice.Rlevse 21:28, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

We also have to consider the image useage. For example, I once had the image for Wynton Marsalis up, but it is an album cover and is only allowed to be used in the article for the album (so technically it is wrong in the article on Marsalis). The Ferlinghetti image is nice, but I'm not sure the copyright tag allows use. The Reece image might be a use issue as well.

The Belle photo is from his arrest and it just doesn't grab me. Barry is not so much about controversy as it is about yet another guy in a suit. Government photos are fair use, but they are just so boring- we have a preponderance of suits and astronauts. I'm going to be rather busy today, so I might not get to this speedily. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 13:20, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I added Bluford- at least it is different. Ditto for Rivera. I changed the A and B sections to 90 px to match the rest of the list. I would like to save some space for Cunningham when we get a photo. We could probably squeeze in another D, F and H. I really do think that images in the Incorrectly Regarded section removes focus on the article. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 19:54, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Remove it if it bothers you. I think it's a great shot that is only used on one other scouting page. --evrik 20:09, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I was going to move it to the pop culture page, but you got there first :-) The problem is that IJ is not an Eagle Scout, but the use of the photo (cool photo BTW) looses that focus. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 20:16, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I see Gadget's point and since Evrik and I agreed to let him decide on the photo usage here, I say we stick to that. I feel it's Gadget's call. Rlevse 22:11, 29 October 2006 (UTC)...PS half of Bluford is in the C section. Rlevse 22:13, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to go on and remove the IJ pic. Some of the photos are off a bit by section, but I don't see that as a problem. I wish Ozzie Nelson had a proper photo, but his article uses an album cover.

I need to go through this and check grammar and the like, but I am not going to have time. I have to go out of town on business through at least Wednesday. I would rather wait until I get back to put this up for FL as I will be better able to edit and defend it.

A question on the name: leave it as is, or change it to "List of notable Eagle Scouts". --Gadget850 ( Ed) 23:03, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

What are other similar lists named--with the 'notable' in them or not? I'd follow the standard practice. Bluford and Pierce dip well into the next letter section, but I leave what to do with them to you. Rlevse 10:55, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
  • I wuld say notable, is there a flagpole that it could be run up to get outside opinions? --evrik 16:34, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
I think the B pictures push too far into the C section, other than that I think it's good to go for FL candidate. Rlevse 16:17, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Article Name

I am not sure if this argument as arisen yet, but I think that the article should be named List of notable Eagle Scouts. With its current name, it should include non-notable Eagle Scouts which, as I see, is not the purpose. This would avoid confusion (if any) and be a more accurate title for its purpose. J.Steinbock 19:08, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually it has come up. See the posting right above yours. THe more I think of it, the more I agree. Rlevse 19:11, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Move/rename

Propose this article be renamed to "List of notable Eagle Scouts" as it more cleary defines the scope of the list. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 19:33, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Done Checking redirects. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 15:00, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Gold dots

I don't like the gold dots. I like the gold eagles much better. Rlevse 17:30, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Too small. I vote for letting Gadget850 decide this too. Rlevse 17:54, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm working on it. Resizing the current image is not going to work well. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 18:24, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

OK- uploaded a new 15 px PNG version. This does fit better. If accepted, I will update the whole article in one swoop. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 18:42, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
15pix png seems okayRlevse 18:35, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Citations

Here is the big job: Each entry needs a citation. See List of Telecaster players for an example. Many of the cites are going to be reused. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 18:48, 7 November 2006 (UTC)


A list of named cites used in the article so far
  • Astronauts:
<ref name="astro-bsa" /> A-G entries
<ref name="astro-bsah" /> H-z entries
  • <ref name="congress-bsa" />
  • <ref name="eagle-bsa" />
  • DESA list:
<ref name="desalista" /> A-B entries
<ref name="desalistc" /> C-F entries
<ref name="desalistg" /> G-K entries
<ref name="desalistl" /> L-Q entries
<ref name="desalistr" /> R-S entries
<ref name="desalistt" /> T-Z entries
I may get to help tonight, maybe not, definitely tomorrow. Rlevse 21:35, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I really need help on the entries marked citation needed. I am trying for an independednt cite and I;m just not getting any good hits. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 11:53, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

What do you mean by independent--non BSA or what? For Willie Banks I found this [10]. Rlevse 13:23, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

The ones I have tagged do not have a cite in the article and I could not find one with a quick search. A lot of searches pull up derivitaves of WP articles or any number of the questionalble lists. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 15:07, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

no refs

For ones we can't find refs for, we need to move to talk page's "Potential entries requiring investigation" section. Rlevse 12:32, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Once we finish the bulk, we should go back through these. Again, these are entries I could not verify with a quick search. If there is still an issue, then move them to investigated. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 13:28, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
The reason I am marking these is so that they stand out when we go back to check them. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 13:36, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
A problem with searches like "Joe Cool" "Eagle Scout" is that Wikipedia is so sucessful. There are so many hits to derivatives of WP that it overwhelms the unique hits. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 13:34, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Yep, that really irks me too. Rlevse 14:19, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to move the uncited entries to the investigate list until we can get more information. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 19:18, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Incorrectly regarded as Eagle Scout

We now are down to cites for the non-Eagles. We really need Hank Aaron.

I have done some searching, and the only real reference for Harrison Ford either way is in this article! As I recall Hooks was only added because his article said he almost made Eagle and editors were adding him- his article no longer shows that. I'm going to remove them for now.

A cite for Charles Manson would be nice as well. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 15:12, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Donald Rumsfeld/Robert Gates

Looks like Rumsfeld is stepping down as SoD and Gates is nominated. I suggest we update the list after this has happened. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 19:10, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

  • I just made a change that reflects today's reality. --evrik (talk) 19:17, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
I haven't seen anything on the effective date, so lets just wait a bit. Gates has to go through confirmation. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 19:50, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
Rumsfeld isn't out until January. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 01:30, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
I added a comment in the entry- hopefully that will take care of this. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 21:35, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
  • You're assuming people read. --evrik (talk) 21:54, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
I make a lot of assumptions about good faith. As an Eagle Scout, I'm supposed to.  :-) --Gadget850 ( Ed) 22:41, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Image layout

I'm considering a new layout. Take a look at sandbox2 for a draft. I did down through P just to get the idea. Instead of trying to fill things up, I'm going for a bit more balance. Frankly, a lot of the photos we have right now are so similar that there is not a lot of ocntrast. Just give me a yea or nay on this. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 19:04, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

OK, first, I don't like the layout of that other FL candidate you mentioned. As for your sandbox2, there are some things I don't like: the alpha letters and starting points of a Eagle line sometimes show up 1/3 of the way across the page, you get to see fewer pics (I like seeing what people actually look like), and I don't like the pics swapping sides as you go down the page. What I like about the current layout is the smaller gold eagles and the consistent pattern of alpha letters, starting line points, and consistent pics. Just my humble 2 cents. Rlevse 19:15, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Nea I like the current layout and image size. Look at what I did with the "W" section on the test page. Maybe that's an alternative? --evrik (talk) 19:19, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
    • that version of the W section makes the wasted white space even bigger. Rlevse 19:34, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
  • I just tried it with the T section and adjusted the margins a little bit. --evrik (talk) 19:45, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I think I'll leave it as is for now, Maybe we will revisit this later. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 22:42, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

1 in 1000

"Only about 1 in 1,000 of all Eagle Scouts have been presented this prestigious award."

I removed this as it is rather misleading. There have been about 1.7 million Eagles Scouts and just under 1700 DESA- that does work out to 1 in 1000. But, Eagle was first awarded in 1912 and DESA in 1969, thus we should only count the number of Eagles since 1969. We would have to do some calculating, but I don't think it is a notable figure, as we have the actual numbers. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 23:55, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Not true, there was a time in the beginning after DESA that the early Eagles were eligible-- see my desa list and Michael H. Antonacci as one example. Rlevse 00:00, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
OK- I got to thinking again (dangerous) and I realized the fallacy in my thoughts. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 04:09, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Presidential Medal of Freedom

We need a cite for this or it is going to have to go. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 23:59, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

take it out, it's mere opinion. Rlevse 00:00, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Done --Gadget850 ( Ed) 04:09, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Rename/move (2)

Disambiguate the title my moving to List of notable Eagle Scouts (Boy Scouts of America) Please oppose or support:

  • support that suggestion makes sense and your proposed rename follows the pattern of our other articles that are in that situation. Rlevse 10:58, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
  • oppose Name of article is fine as it is. --evrik (talk) 15:23, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
    • neutral not thrilled with the proposed name. --evrik (talk) 16:47, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
  • comment: I should have made it clear that this came up during the FLC. There are at least three Scouting groups that use Eagle Scout. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 16:15, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Support due to 3 Scout group confusion and naming per other project articles in this situation. Sumoeagle179 02:19, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Given the support both here and on the FLC discussion, I am making the move and fixing redirects. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 16:52, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

NPOV

The NPOV tag was placed on this article by User:166.214.156.48. No reason was given. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 01:08, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

that's why I just took it off, you can't slap such a tag on an article and run off without leaving a reason.Rlevse 02:05, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Agree. I just want to document the issue and our reasoning. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 03:19, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

  • It has to be related to the FA article. --evrik (talk) 15:13, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Al Gore

I know that Al Gore is often cited as being an Eagle Scout in the press, for example here and here. I'm not sure if it's true, but I think it should definitely be added to either the correct or incorrect list. Kyle J Moore 19:24, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I've not heard this before. While the WP is a solid source, I'm curious why it's not in his bio. Rlevse 21:03, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Have you tried a google search? It doesn't help. --evrik (talk) 21:17, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
  • The two sources given do not say he is an Eagle Scout, but they do make a comparison. One compares him to Mr. Clean, but I don't see him cleaning my kitchen floor anytime soon. Gore does not show up on any of the multitude of lists, so I don't think he needs to be added. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 15:00, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
  • I just got a call from his press person. As far as they know, he wasn't even a Scout. Maybe we should place him under the Incorrectly regarded as Eagle Scout section? --evrik (talk) 16:46, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Folks should go on the list only if they show up on other lists incorrectly as an Eagle Scout or if there is a pesistent rumour about someone like Manson or Angelo. Hank Aaron fits this as he shows up on a number of those lists. Hooks was only on the list because his article used to say he almost made Eagle (that is gone now) and a couple of editors added him and someone moved him to the incorrect list. Otherwise, the thing could eat the article. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 03:15, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Kudos

Kudos to Gadget850 and Rlevse on all the fine work on this article. I see it's up for Featured List, I'll vote for it. Sumoeagle179 02:26, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

WE MADE IT. Thanks to everyone who contributed! --Gadget850 ( Ed) 01:56, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

  • Congrats. --evrik (talk) 02:15, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Congrat Ed, you put a lot of work into this! Sumoeagle179 02:35, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
    • Well done Gadget! Rlevse 02:36, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
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