Talk:List of Freemasons (A–D)/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Origin of page

Creating page... this page is the result of a split of our former List of Freemasons articles. That page was getting overly long and so has been divided into smaller alphabetical chunks. Blueboar (talk) 16:18, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

Talk Page Instructions

This talk page is for discussing entries to this specific list article - ie entries for List of Freemasons (A - D). For centralized discussion on generalized issues or questions (that might concern all of our "List of Freemasons" articles) please post at the main article talk page: Talk:List of Freemasons. Thank you Blueboar (talk) 12:11, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Atatürk?

To support the claim that Atatürk was a Freemason, three sources are presented, but only one passes WP:RS, as the other two are self-published websites and non-reliable in any case. The third source is not available online, though it would be interesting to have a quote to know what it claims, exactly. Searching for "Macedonia Risorta Atatürk" in Google Books provide few results, but one of those reads (from snippet view, own translation): "The issue is more complex, because the loggia 'Macedonia Risorta' has been accused of having recruited him retrospectively". So at very least, it shouldn't be presented as an uncontroversial fact.--eh bien mon prince (talk) 12:00, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

We have discussed the Ataturk entry multiple times already (see the archives at Talk:List of Freemasons). Each time there was solid consensus that the sources were reliable enough for us to include him on the list. Unless there is some new evidence to be considered, I don't think that consensus will change. Blueboar (talk) 12:53, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

I don't see how or where you proved that those citations are reliable. They are indisputably self-published, and one of them is a dead link.--eh bien mon prince (talk) 17:23, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

From their website: "Palestine Lodge No.189. Palestine is a growing lodge located in Catonsville, MD." Published on a wordpress-y website. How exactly was it decided that they are a reliable source on the history of masonic lodges in Turkey?--eh bien mon prince (talk) 17:32, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Look at the bottom of the page at the Palistine Lodge website... they are actually acting as a re-publisher. The original published source was "Freemasonry Today" - The Official Journal of the United Grand Lodge of England... and that original publication was a transcription of a talk given by a former Grand Master of the Grand Lodge of Turkey... ie someone we can call an expert on the subject of Turkish Freemasonry. That's why it is reliable.

I have removed the Abby Lodge website (which seems to have repeated dead link issues)... and have replaced it with a citation to Jasper Ridley's "The Freemasons" (see the snippet). This is hardly a self-published source. Blueboar (talk) 18:03, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

I did notice that it claims to be copied from another source, and this raises the question if a) this claim is reliable, and the article is really from that source (a search for 'Semih Tezcan' on the Freemasonry Today website returns no hits) and b) if the source itself is indeed reliable. It's a small-circulation magazine, so I doubt it. Jasper Ridley is an obvious improvement, but all the claims that are not supported by his book should be removed, and a proper quote added (I can't access the preview to verify). The same goes for the other book quote, I don't see why the 'quote needed' tag should be removed.--eh bien mon prince (talk) 18:19, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Um "Freemasonry Today" has a circulation of over a quarter million subscribers in the UK and US. That's not a small-circulation magazine. Have you tried searching the Freemasonry Today website for "Kaya Pasakay" or "Freemasonry in Turkey"? (note... The original publication may date from the days when Freemasonry Today was printed in dead tree format... before the Journal went digital... in which case it may not be scanned into their archives.) As for Hamill... I see no need for a quote. We cite the specific page in the book where the information can be found... Go to a library and check out the book. See our WP:Verifiability policy... Information simply needs to be verifiable, it does not need to be easily verifiable. Blueboar (talk) 18:41, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Freemasonry Today doesn't have an article, which would be unusual for a publication with that many subscribers. Anyway, its reliability for this matter is not ascertained, and for now the real source is the Palestine Lodge of Catonsville, MD, which means it can't stay in the article. As for adding the quote, you're not required to add it, of course, even if it would take you a few seconds to do so if you have access to the book (and how you could check its content otherwise?). But that means that I'm equally allowed to tag it with a quote needed tag, which I intend to do.--eh bien mon prince (talk) 18:52, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Please stop vandalizing the list by removing this entry... you have admitted at WP:RSN that Jasper Ridley is a reliable source... S. Brent Morris and John Hamill are two of the most respected Masonic historians in the world (Morris is editor of the Scottish Rite Journal and was the first American to be elected Master of Quatuor Coronati Lodge - the oldest and most respected research lodge in the world... Hamill is the Librarian of the United Grand Lodge of England). Pasakay is a former Grand Master of the Grand Lodge of Turkey. These are experts with access to the relevant records. They are highly reliable sources. While they may disagree on the name of the lodge that Ataturk joined, they are united in agreeing that he was a Freemason. That is more than enough to include Ataturk on the list. I have had enough of this... If you continue to remove the entry, I will report you to WP:ANI. Blueboar (talk) 11:50, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

The opinion of other editors at the WP:RSN request that you started led me to reconsider my position on your sources. If you want to go WP:FORUMSHOPping and open a ANI report go ahead, but that will only harm your reputation, not change the outcome.--eh bien mon prince (talk) 12:11, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

OK... the editors at RSN found a source they consider reliable... I have used that. Hopefully this is now settled. Blueboar (talk) 13:26, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Creating a "Past discussions on disputed entries" archive?

To avoid having to go through the same discussions over and over again... perhaps we should create a special "Past discussions on disputed entries" archive. We could put a permanent link to this archive at the top of the talk page (and perhaps even in hidden text next to the entry in the article) at the top of the talk pages at each of the alphabetical sub-articles. That way future editors would be able to check the consensus before they raise the issue yet again. Blueboar (talk) 12:53, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

OK... I have created an archive page (see: Talk:List of Freemasons (A - D) /Archive - Past discussions on disputed entries)... now I just need to figure out how to link it in the archives search box. Blueboar (talk) 13:46, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Buzz Aldrin and Salvador Allende

Again, another example of a self-published masonic website (in this case http://www.calodges.org) used to source a claim that a prominent figure was a Freemason. Similar claims (WP:REDFLAG) can only be supported by quality sources, like scholarly publications.--eh bien mon prince (talk) 12:40, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Re-added Aldrin with four cites. In the future, please discuss this list on the main list's talk: Talk:List of Freemasons. Secondly, if you think a person is not listed with a good cite, replace the bad cite with "citation needed" and then discuss it on the talk page. Don't just delete the entry. Eric Cable | Talk 19:12, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

The replacement sources are not reliable, they're all self-published from masonic sources. On top of that, since Buzz Aldrin is still alive, claims about him should be made according to WP:BLP. Deleting the entry was the right thing to do, and it still is, until adequate sources are provided.--[[User:|eh bien mon prince]] (talk) 11:26, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

If you consider the BC&Y website unreliable, you are going to end up removing about half of this list (which would be very disruptive)... and challenging key statements in almost all of the other articles under the Freemasonry WikiProject. We use it extensively. The Project considers it one of the most reliable Masonic web sites that exists.

Before you do that, however, you might want to re-read WP:SPS... Self published sources are acceptable when the author qualifies as a subject matter expert. Trever McKeown (the editor of the BC&Y website) most definitely qualifies as a subject matter expert. Blueboar (talk) 14:51, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

As the issue with Underlying lk has not yet been completely solved, I took the liberty of re-adding Allende and Desmons with their old sources and also supported by one new source.--The Theosophist (talk) 00:06, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Nelson W. Aldrich b.1841

There are two entries for Nelson W. Aldrich. Someone with more information than I might be interested in editing these into one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.198.217.133 (talk) 22:21, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks.

Done Fiddlersmouth (talk) 00:33, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Adding 14 under B all listed in Denslow

Adding the following fourteen under the letter B who are all listed in Denslow:

Henry D. Bradley (1893 - December 14, 1973), Publisher of the St. Joseph News-Press who was the first member of the Bradly family which controls the News-Press & Gazette Company media company. Member of Sanford L. Collins Lodge No. 396 of Toledo, Ohio.
Willis W. Bradley (28 June 28 1884 – 27 August 1954), United States Naval officer, recipient of the Medal of Honor, and U.S. Representative from California. Scottish Rite 32°, Knight Templar, and Shriner. National president of National Sojourners.
John Bradstreet (21 December 1714 – 25 September 1774), British Army Major General who served during King Georges War, the French and Indian War, and Pontiac's Rebellion. Also served as the Commodore-Governor for Newfoundland. Mason in Novia Scotia.
Hugh Brady (29 July 1768 – 15 April 1851), American general from Pennsylvania who served in the Northwest Indian War under General Anthony Wayne, and during the War of 1812. Initiated 9 June 9 1797 in Lodge No. 22, Sunbury, Pennsylvania and withdrew 15 January 1805.
James H. Brady (12 June 1862 – 13 January 1918), United States Senator and Eighth Governor of Idaho.
David Legge Brainard (21 December − 22 March 1946), American arctic explorer and Brigader General. Member of Marathon Lodge No. 438, Marathon, New York.
Thomas E. Bramlette (3 January 1817 - 12 January 1875), 23rd Governor of Kentucky. Was Master of Albany Lodge No. 260, Albany, Kentucky.
John Branch (4 November 1782 – 3 January 1863), U.S. Senator, 8th Secretary of the Navy, the 19th Governor of North Carolina, and sixth and last territorial governor of Florida. Member of Royal White Hart Lodge No. 2, Halifax, North Carolina.
James T. Brand (9 October 1886 – 28 February 1964), 31st Chief Justice of the Oregon Supreme Court. A judge at the Nuremberg trials.
William W. Brandon (5 June 1868 – 7 December 1934), 37th Governor of Alabama. Member of Rising Virtue Lodge No. 4 at Tuscaloosa, Alabama.
Samuel Brannan (2 March 2, 1819 – 5 May 1889), American settler, businessman, journalist, and prominent Mormon who founded the California Star newspaper in San Francisco, California. Member of California Lodge No. 1, of San Francisco.
John Brant (27 September 1794 – 27 August 1832), Mohawk chief and government official in Upper Canada. Member of Union Lodge No. 24, Ancaster, Ontario.
Charles Wesley Brashares (1891 – 1982), American Bishop of The Methodist Church and the United Methodist Church. Raised in Harmony Lodge No. 38, Gorham, Maine. Demitted.
Alva J. Brasted (5 July 1876 – 27 May 1965), 4th Chief of Chaplains of the United States Army. Member of Sojourners Lodge No. 51, Washington, DC.

thanks. Eric Cable | Talk 18:55, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Adding 20 more all listed in Denslow

Adding these individuals all listed in Denslow:

Thanks. Eric Cable | Talk 20:13, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks Eric.

I note that the list is getting long(ish) again... not sure if we are at the stage (yet) where we have enough for a separate list of each letter of the alphabet... but it's getting there. Thoughts? Blueboar (talk) 02:15, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Nothing stops us from having 29 separate lists and transcluding them into one master list. We should probably redirect all the talk pages to a master talk page if we go down that route. WegianWarrior (talk) 04:39, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

I don't think we need a page for every letter because some letters like Q, U, X,Y, and Z are very short. LIke the idea of Wikipedia:Transclusion though. I may experiment with it in my userspace. Eric Cable | Talk 14:09, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Adding 16 more to B listed In Denslow.

Adding 16 more to B listed In Denslow:

Eric Cable | Talk 14:11, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Robert the Bruce?

OK, Denslow has Robert the Bruce listed as...

"Robert le Bruce (1274-1329) King and liberator of Scotland. Opposed to Edward I of England as King of Scotland in 1296 and fought against him in 1298, but adhered to him during invasion of 1302-4. He murdered John Comyn in 1306 and was crowned as Robert I, King of Scotland, at Scone in 1306. In the same year he was defeated by the English and took refuge on the coast of Ireland, excommunicated and outlawed. He returned the following year and in two years wrested most of Scotland from the English, routing Edward II's army at Bannockburn in 1314. He repulsed the English time after time until Edward III recognized the independence of Scotland and Bruce's right to rule by the treaty of 1328 at Northampton. He died of leprosy. He is traditionally said to have introduced Freemasonry into Scotland and in 1314 established the Order of Herodom for the reception of those Knights Templar who had taken refuge in his dominions from the persecutions of the Pope and King of France. As part of a combined order, he is said to have established the Royal Order of Scotland at the Battle of Bannockburn in recognition of the Freemasons who helped him defeat the English. His descendant, Lord Elgin q.v., is present head of the Royal Order of Scotland and the possessor of the great sword of Robert le Bruce."

Which seems like a bit of a stretch to me. I will leave him off. Eric Cable | Talk 13:42, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Agree... for one thing, even if we accept all that, it does not actually say the Bruce himself was a Freemason ... it says that the Bruce was a patron of the Freemasons. There is a difference. Blueboar (talk) 02:22, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

This is the foundation myth of the Grand Order of Scotland (Templars omitted and masons inserted). They do NOT claim that it is the literal truth. I think this is a bit of fun, in the tradition of grandiose claims of past patrons and members dating to the earliest manuscripts. Fiddlersmouth (talk) 00:11, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Yeah... shall we also list Adam, Moses, and Euclid?... and let's not forget Kings Solomon, Hiram, and Athelstan. Blueboar (talk) 01:44, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Adding 30 more from Denslow to B

Adding...

Aaron V. Brown (15 August 1795 – 8 MArch 1859),11th Governor of Tennessee and 17th United States Postmaster General. Junior Grand Warden of the Grand Lodge of Tennessee in 1825.
Albert G. Brown (31 May 1813 – 12 June 1880), 14th Governor of Mississippi. Member of Gallatin Lodge No. 25, Gallatin, Mississippi.
Daniel Russell Brown (28 March 1848 – 28 February 1919), 43rd Governor of Rhode Island.
Egbert B. Brown (4 October 1816 – 11 February 1902), Union general in the Trans-Mississippi Theater of the American Civil War. Member of Toledo Lodge No. 144, Toledo, Ohio.
Fred H. Brown (12 April 1879-3 February 1955), 59th Governor of New Hampshire.
Gustavus Richard Brown (17 October 1747 – 20 September 1804), One of the doctors summoned to attend to George Washington the night he died. One of the organizers of St. Columbia Lodge No. 10, [[Port Tobacco|Port Tobacco, Maryland, and was the fifth grand master of Maryland in 1797.
Jacob Brown (9 May 1775 – 24 February 1828), Commanding General of the United States Army from June 1821 until his death. Received degrees in Ontario Lodge at Sackets Harbor, New York and later a member of Watertown Lodge No. 49, Watertown, New York.
Joe E. Brown (28 June 1891 – 6 July 1973), American film actor active from 1928-1964. Member of Rubicon Lodge No. 237, Toledo, Ohio and of Al Malaikah Shrine in Los Angeles.
John Brown (9 May 1800 – 2 December 1859), American who led an anti-slavery revolt in Harpers Ferry, Virginia in 1859. Freemason who later became an Anti-Mason.
John Brown, Represented Virginia in the Continental Congress and United States House of Representatives. Introduced the bill granting Statehood to Kentucky and would become the first Senator from that state. Member of Lexington Lodge No. 1, Lexington.
John C. Brown (6 January 1827 – 17 August 1889), 19th Governor of Tennessee and Confederate general. A member of Pulaski Lodge No. 101, Pulaski, Tennessee and was Grand Master of the Grand Lodge of Tennessee in 1869.
Norris Brown (2 May 1863 – 5 January 1960), U.S. Senator from Nebraska.
Prentiss M. Brown (18 June 1889 – 19 December 1973), U.S. Representative and Senator from Michigan. Member of St. Ignace Lodge No. 369, St. Ignace, Michigan. Received the Scottish Rite (Northern Jurisdiction) 33°in October, 1955.
Thomas Brown (24 October 1785 – 24 August 1867), Second Governor of Florida. Raised in Hiram Lodge No. 59 of Virginia in August, 1807. Became a member of Jackson Lodge No. 1, Tallahassee serving as secretary in 1833 and master in 1855. Grand Master of the Grand Lodge of Florida in 1849. Grand secretary of the Grand Lodge of Florida from 1834-35.
Charles Farrar Browne (26 April 1834 – 6 March 1867), American humor writer, better known under his nom de plume, Artemus Ward. Received the Masonic degrees in Manhattan Lodge No. 62, New York City in the fall of 1863.
Edward E. Browne (16 February 1868 – 23 November 1945), U.S. Representative from Wisconsin.
Gordon Browning (22 November 1889 – 23 May 1976), 38th Governor of [[Tennessee]. Member of Huntingdon Lodge No. 106, Huntingdon, Tennessee.
Charles B. Brownson (5 February 1914 – 4 August 1988), U.S. Representative from Indiana. Raised in Mystic Tie Lodge No. 398 of Indianapolis in 1950.
Nathan Brownson (14 May 1742 – 6 November 1796), Physician and statesman from Riceboro, Georgia. Delegate to the Continental Congress in 1777 and was Governor of Georgia in 1781. Member of North Star Lodge of Manchester, Vermont.
Walter Bruchhausen (29 May 1892 – 11 October 1976), United States federal judge.
Wilber M. Brucker (23 June 1894 – 28 October 1968), 32nd Governor of Michigan. 6th United States Secretary of the Army. Rasied in Salina Lodge No. 155 on 15 September 1915 and later served as Master of that lodge.
Henry Bruckner (17 June 1871 – 14 April 1942), U.S. Representative from New York.
Clement Laird Brumbaugh (February 28, 1863 – September 28, 1921) was a U.S. Representative from Ohio.
D. Emmert Brumbaugh (8 October 1894 – 22 April 1977), U.S. Representative from Pennsylvania. Member of Woodbury Lodge No. 539 at Roaring Spring, Pennsylvania. Scottish Rite and Shriner.
Martin Grove Brumbaugh (14 April 1862 – 14 March 1930), 26th Governor of Pennsylvania. Member of Mt. Moriah Lodge No. 300, Huntington, Pennsylvania.
Avery Brundage (28 September1887 – 8 May 1975), Fifth president of the International Olympic Committee. Member of North Shore Lodge No. 937, Chicago. Scottish Rite and Shriner.
Duke Ferdinand of Brunswick-Wolfenbüttel (12 January 1721 – 3 July 1792), German-Prussian field marshal (1758–1766) known for his participation in the Seven Years' War. Initiated in 1740 in the Lodge of Three Globes in Berlin and received his Master's degree in 1743 at Breslau.
George W. Brush (4 October 1842 – 18 November 1927), Captain of a black company in the 34th Infantry Regiment U.S. Colored Troops in the Union Army during the American Civil War and received the Medal of Honor.
Henry Brush (June 1778 – 19 January 1855), U.S. Representative from and member of the Supreme Court of Ohio.
Joseph R. Bryson (18 January 1893 – 10 March 10 1953), U.S. Representative from South Carolina.

All listed in Denslow.

I may finish this project by the time I'm dead. Eric Cable | Talk 20:28, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Adding the last 35 names listed in Denslow from the letter B

Adding these indivduals all listed in Denslow. I am now finished with the letter B in Denslow. Eric Cable | Talk 17:56, 18 May 2015 (UTC)