Talk:List of Historic Sites of Japan (Aichi)

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Requested move 21 March 2022[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus: This was a very tough one to call. Going by a strict count of supporters and opposes, the supporters are in the clear majority. However, consensus determination also requires evaluating their arguments, assigning due weight accordingly, and giving due consideration to the relevant consensus of the Wikipedia community in general as reflected in applicable policy, guidelines and naming conventions. Supporters of moving the articles generally argued that the titles are not proper names, with some referring to WP:NCCAPS, WP:LOWERCASE, MOS:PROPERNOUN, MOS:CAPS, etc. Opposers of the move generally argued that these historic sites are officially recognised by the Japanese government, and since other articles on Wikipedia capitalise the names of similar articles, these should be capitalised as well.

In the aforementioned policies, and indeed some of the comments made during this discussion, it is emphasized that the capitalisation of article titles should be consistent with the source material. Very few sources were actually cited during this discussion, which makes it hard to judge the weight of statements concerning the source material. Therefore, in regards to arguments about source material, I find the statement by No such user to be the most convincing: this is a clear demarcation problem with no single satisfactory solution, and that citing source material is difficult due to the different profile of those sources when compared to other countries.

Given that other articles on Wikipedia capitalise similar articles, that very few sources were refereed to during this discussion, the majority of commenters argue that these titles are not common names and therefore shouldn't be capitalised, and that citing source material is difficult in this scenario, I find that there is no consensus on what the article titles should be. (non-admin closure) Spekkios (talk) 23:33, 14 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

– Per WP:LOWERCASE, as suggested at Talk:List of historic sites of Japan (Kōchi)#Requested move 21 March 2022. GeoffreyT2000 (talk) 15:18, 21 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support, but move instead to List of historic sites of Aichi or List of historic sites of Aichi Prefecture, etc. (removing "Japan" as unnecessary). These are not proper names. In fact, each article covers multiple different types of designations of historical importance, some of which are not at the national level. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 16:07, 21 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • Note also that the RM proposed at Talk:List of historic sites of Japan (Kōchi)#Requested move 21 March 2022 appears unlikely to succeed, so unless these articles are moved, the result will be inconsistent. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 17:50, 2 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • as It Will Be Across cultural properties Of japan (both within and without Wikipedia (drive-by opiners could try looking at the sources) If This somehow Succeeds: National Treasures, Places of Scenic Beauty, Natural Monuments, Important Cultural Properties, etc, all under the same Act; can anyone also cite an? the weight of? RS for National Treasure of Japan not in capitals? Our Betty, she's a national treasure, as opposed to, the Tamamushi no zushi is one of the National Treasures of Japan (funny how they managed to reach featured list Status), Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 22:47, 2 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      • Oh yes, and approximately one thousand articles such as Ano Ichirizuka, which of course uses capitals for this Historic Site; also, if those who have no interest in actually contributing to the content of these pages are in the majority and hell-bent on bulldozing through regardless, might I prevail upon them at least to defer for a year or two until the individual page drive is largely complete, just in case the editor(s) most active find the whole WP:Randy situation too annoying for words and go and work on something else instead, thank you, Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 23:08, 2 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, and I would prefer the shorter version proposed by BarrelProof, i.e. List of historic sites of X Dr. Vogel (talk) 16:35, 21 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
No, because, as is clear from the article, Historic Sites are designated also at a prefectural level. Historic Sites of Yamanashi Prefecture sounds like 山梨県指定史跡, Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 03:03, 22 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The link in the Monuments of Japan article of this guideline seems to suggest that yes, Historic Site is indeed an actual designation in English. Canterbury Tail talk 17:42, 22 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure that one pamphlet is enough to hang our hats on for English-language sourcing, but it's something. A question: the articles describe several different types of designations of historic importance, at least including designations at the national, prefectural and municipal level. Are all of these designations determined by the national Agency for Cultural Affairs, or are some of them determined at a more local level? —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 19:28, 22 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hello, the prefectural/municipal designations are in accordance with the national law (potentially in conjunction with or via local regulations) but by more local bodies; The agency For cultural affairs' overall statistics include the more local designations, but for information on the designations themselves, one has to refer to the prefectural/municipal government sites, Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 14:41, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Well, a start would be the 文化庁 sources provided in the article overleaf; otherwise refer to the literature in English, including eg the more general recent OUP handbook on international cultural heritage law as well as the Japan-centric studies in your university library. Please provide the balance of evidence that would require this discussion and the disruption of the status quo, Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 03:03, 22 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
NO, because the designations under this system include paintings, and paintings listed against one prefecture might in fact be not only temporarily on displahy in but deposited in another prefecture; Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 14:41, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Well I suggested some, can you not find them? Also, how do you propose to distinguish between Historic Sites and historic sites? Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 14:41, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Right, I could not find any in my own search, and now I can't find where you sugggested some. Maybe you can make a "===Sources===" subsection for us to consider, instead of a vague mention. Dicklyon (talk) 16:24, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Commment Although not AfD, arguments along the lines of WP:WHATABOUT seem to be coming up a lot here. -Kj cheetham (talk) 09:19, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support some form of lower case as per WP:LOWERCASE unless more English sources are found beyond a single pamphlet. Considering articles beyond the ones listed here should be for a wider discussion rather than just this move request. -Kj cheetham (talk) 09:24, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Already found and suggested above, Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 14:41, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support move as proposed & removing Japan as unnecessary per BarrelProof & removing accents. The over-capitalisation appears to fall to MOS:SIGNIFCAPS and should be removed. Per WP:TITLEFORMAT, the current bracket formatting creates an inappropriate subsidiary article relationship. I think it is common enough to refer to these places without "provence". We don't need to be overly precise unless there is an actual conflict in article titles and I don't see that happening. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cinderella157 (talk • contribs) 04:57, 25 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per MOS:SIGCAPS and WP:NCCAPS generally. This is not consistently capitalized in source material, so it should not be capitalized on Wikipedia. We've been over this plenty of times before with equivalent terms in other countries. Japanese doesn't have capitalization; any application of capital letters to transcriptions and translations is happening after the fact per the whim of whatever a particular publisher's house style is. We have our own, and it is to use lower-case for anything that is not overwhelingly found capitalized in sources.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  00:44, 1 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • Why don't you go and amend mossigcaps and wpnccaps instead; also please provide the claimed RS source material which confuses Historic Sites with historic sites, Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 07:45, 2 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose as these are official designations, not random lists of anything that might be historical in any way. I do think we can simplify the titles to be along the lines of "List of Historic Sites of Miyagi" instead of their current titles. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 17:16, 7 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note to closer I closed Talk:List_of_historic_sites_of_Japan_(Kōchi)#Requested_move_21_March_2022 as not moved due to consensus there. If this bundled RM is closed as "not moved", the other article should be moved to "Historical Sites" for consistency of these articles. Natg 19 (talk) 19:57, 8 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Per WP:RMCI#NOTOTHERPAGES, an RM that was just closed shouldn't be overturned by an RM that didn't even list that article. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 05:16, 12 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Source[edit]

If you look at the translation of the relevant legislation in the UNESCO database of national cultural heritage laws, a translation which says it by the Japan Centre for International Cooperation in Conservation and the National Research Institute for Cultural Properties, Tokyo, this uses what you would expect and how it should be, i.e, "Historic Site" etc, Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 15:17, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It looks to me like that translation never speaks of "Historic Site of Japan", nor "Prefectural Historic Sites", nor "Municipal Historic Site", nor just "Historic Sites", other than in the context of the two quoted special designations 'Historic Sites, Places of Scenic Beauty and Natural Monuments' and 'Special Historic Sites, Places of Scenic Beauty and Natural Monuments'. There's not evidence that 'Historic Sites' would be capped in other contexts. Dicklyon (talk) 16:45, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Please read Cultural Property (Japan) then return. Historic Sites, like Places of Scenic Beauty, like Natural Monuments are the three elements that together comprise Monuments of Japan; they were introduced together in the legislation hence are spoken of together in the legislation; this is an utterly ridiculous waste of time, go and be disruptive somewhere else, Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 17:38, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The law of Japan, or a translation of it, and any publications of the Agency for Cultural Affairs of Japan, should be considered self-published and/or primary sources when talking about the programs of the Japanese government. Ideally, there should be WP:independent sources that are WP:reliable sources that discuss the subject with WP:significant coverage in English, in order to make a determination that a particular capitalization is consistently followed. But it seems that finding English-language independent reliable sources may be difficult in this case. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 21:30, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
See, this is exactly what I warned above: "Follow the usage in sources" is a pretty hollow mantra, since sources discussing Japanese historical sites will be of different profile than those discussing, for example, Brazilian ones, [...], producing inconsistent results. Official designations of protected areas, historic sites and like should all be treated WP:CONSISTENTly, whether they are located in Japan, Kiribati, Paraguay or the United States. I don't have a strong preference for either lowercase or uppercase (both have their merits), but going case-by-case and examining sources (beware of WP:COMMONSTYLE fallacy) is counterproductive, since there will be inevitable inconsistency in sources treating essentially the same subjects. If necessary, let's have a RfC somewhere (I'd propose a limited scope only about natural and cultural heritage items) and then apply it consistently. No such user (talk) 09:16, 24 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

More over-capitalization[edit]

Multiples sections include "Sites" over-capitalized (I just fixed). I left headings "Prefectural Historic Sites", though it's hard to imagine that this RM will conclude that "Historic Sites" is a proper name with or without Prefectural or Municipal. We'll see. Dicklyon (talk) 16:33, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You introduced errors, which I have since reverted; please attend for example to this item in the database (the line "Ōtaka Castle ruins" overleaf); in terms of Historic Site designations, this is but one, but three component sites that are themselves historic (each of which has its own jawiki article, each its own Commons category) together form this one (designated) Historic Site. Please desist, Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 19:04, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I did not introduce errors. The only thing you reverted of my was to re-capitalize "Sites" where it stands alone. The page you link is in Japanese, but the English translation I get has lowercase sites, so it's not clear what you're trying to tell me here. Dicklyon (talk) 01:20, 24 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Even though these terms are clearly not proper names, I get the feeling that people might want to capitalize them anyway, as a way of indicating that the terms have a special meaning. That's the impression I got from my generally-opposed RM at Talk:National Historic Landmark#Requested move 18 January 2022. It may be, for capitalization, sort of analogous to the following guidance from WP:THE: "If a term with a definite article has a different meaning with respect to the same term without the article, the term with the article can be used as the name of a Wikipedia article ... For example, "crown" means the headgear worn by a monarch or other high dignitaries, while "The Crown" is a term used to indicate the government authority and the property of that government in a monarchy." In this case, the capitalization is being used to convey the indication that the term is an officially conferred designation. That seems potentially contrary to MOS:SIGNIFCAPS, and it could be a slippery slope, but I think it is what is motivating the opposition to the downcasing. (Being capitalized doesn't mean they are proper names in the grammatical sense, of course.) —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 21:45, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
A reasonable way to do this would be something like "This is a list of sites that have been given the designation 'Historic Sites, Places of Scenic Beauty and Natural Monuments' ...", and then to use the lowercase "sites", "historic sites", etc. elsewhere. Dicklyon (talk) 01:23, 24 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
So are you suggesting we rename this page and the rest to List of sites that have been given the designation Historic Sites, Places of Scenic Beauty and Natural Monuments (Aichi) (Japan) (Historic Sites)? I certainly wouldn't click on one of the red links above, because they are saying they will take me to a random hotchpotch of historic sites, rather than a/this list of Historic Sites, Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 06:48, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That's certainly my concern. The capitalisation allows the reader to distinguish betweeen a list of officially designated Historic Sites vs. a random list of historic sites made up ad hoc by an editor. If there's another not-too-cumbersome way to make that distinction without using caps, I'd be happy with it. Colonies Chris (talk) 16:07, 25 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I proposed another way immediately above your comment. WP style is to not use caps for such purposes. Dicklyon (talk) 17:29, 26 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds like it is not fit for purpose then, Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 23:08, 2 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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