Talk:List of NFL players born outside the United States

Issues

@Rockchalk717: I did what I could to clean this up. The main issue is that I couldn't find any comprehensive list of currently active foreign NFL players, so it's gonna require a bit of research to fill in the missing names. Research that I'm not really willing to do at the moment. But the sources I added should be sufficient for this to pass WP:LISTN. Lizard (talk) 15:46, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

@Lizard the Wizard: Sounds good. I usually don't have an issue doing clean up but when an article has this much cleanup that is needed, I find myself getting frustrated and most of the time I give up lol. That was also the issue I ran into attempting to do some cleanup.--Rockchalk717 04:05, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

@Rockchalk717: How about this: since there's a ton of sources discussing the history of foreign NFL players but basically none listing them, we de-listify the article and title it something like "Foreign players in the National Football League", à la Black players in professional American football. It would make managing the page a whole lot simpler, but would require a lot of expansion. Expansion that, again, I'm not willing to do. But it's definitely doable; the two highest scoring players in NFL history were born overseas. And then there's hall of famers Ernie Stautner (Germany), Ted Hendricks (Guatemala), Leo Nomellini (Italy), Steve Van Buren (Honduras), Tom Fears (Mexico), and Jan Stenerud (Norway). Lizard (talk) 15:19, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

@Lizard the Wizard: There is a lot that's for sure, you forgot Morton Andersen who's on his way to Canton who was born in Denmark. But that sounds like a pretty good plan to me.--Rockchalk717 04:36, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

Morten is included in "the two highest scoring players in NFL history." There's also a couple Canadians in the hall but I consider them semi-foreign. Lizard (talk) 04:42, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

In creating the historic list of foreign-born players, Pro-Football-Reference allows you to sort players based on country of birth. See, e.g., American Samoa, Australia, Canada, Cuba, Denmark, England, Germany, Ireland, Italy, Mexico, New Zealand, Nigeria, Poland, Russia, South Africa, Spain. Cbl62 (talk) 18:12, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

Yes, this doesn't need to be limited to active players, as the page currently states. It's OK to have an incomplete but (theoretically) growing list (WP:NODEADLINE).—Bagumba (talk) 12:44, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

@Lizard the Wizard: There's no reason we can't expand on the history and still have a list too. It doesn't need to be one or the other. If it was more of an embedded list, we could rename the article to not start with "List of".—Bagumba (talk) 12:41, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

So you'd say a list of all foreign players ever would be viable? Lizard (talk) 12:58, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

Assuming that you could write a standalone article like Foreign NFL players that met GNG, it seem like the list would be warranted as an embedded list. Now I haven't actually looked for sources, but I'd be surprised if they didn't exist.—Bagumba (talk) 15:06, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

Incidentally, I looked over the existing sources on the page, and they already seem sufficient to meet LISTN.—Bagumba (talk) 13:59, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

History

I'll add a "History" section and go from there. Lizard (talk) 14:10, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

If anyone could find who the first foreign player in NFL history was, that'd be swell. Lizard (talk) 14:21, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

Can safely expand the lead to at least three (or four) paragraphs without needing to fork off an actual section.—Bagumba (talk) 14:23, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

I plan on adding much more once I figure out who the first foreign player was. Lizard (talk) 15:21, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

Here's every foreign player who played in the NFL's first season (1920) according to PFR: John Barsha (Russia), John Kvist (Sweden), Jim Bryant (Canada), Perce Wilson (Canada), Tommy Hughitt (Canada), Wilkie Moody (Congo), Phil Nesser (Germany), Birtie Maher (Ireland), Bob Nash (Ireland). Lizard (talk) 02:57, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

Ah, thanks for catching that about Flores/Plunkett. Sources typically don't differentiate what constitutes a Hispanic/Latino when it comes to birth places so I didn't even think to check. Lizard (talk) 15:43, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
@Bagumba: Are Samoans considered foreign? I'd imagine so. With their prevalence in recent decades it'd be nice to dedicate a sizable section for them on this page. Lizard (talk) 03:03, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

American Samoans are U. S. nationals. Not sure if there is an NPOV concern with calling them foreigners? The NBA league labels anyone born outside of 50 states as international, but somehow the Wikipedia article is named List of foreign NBA players.—Bagumba (talk) 05:06, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

I actually consulted that article to see about U.S. Virgin Islanders. Seems that article could use a name change. Lizard (talk) 05:36, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

Seems like all the soccer "List of foreign ..." articles use national team representation to define "foreign", which would not apply to football. I don't suppose there are exhaustive foreign NFL lists that we can leverage a common definition from?—Bagumba (talk) 11:24, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

Probably not. And it doesn't help that a lot of sources are ambiguous when it comes to actual country of birth, e.g., a list of Samoan players would likely include Polamalu even though he was born in California. Lizard (talk) 14:59, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

Looks like John Lee of your UCLA was the first native Southeast Asian in the NFL. Sources differ on his birth name though; PFR says Min John Lee but another source says Min Long Lee. His Wikipedia page say I Min-jong but that's conveniently unsourced. Lizard (talk) 15:55, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

Except Korea is in East Asia, not SE.—Bagumba (talk) 16:51, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

Shame on the LA Times then. Lizard (talk) 17:00, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

@Cbl62: I've pretty much written all I plan to write, will maybe expand the lead a bit. Are there any other foreign players that come to mind that'd be worth detailing? Preferably any that would fit the flow of the prose. Lizard (talk) 07:50, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

None off the top of my head. Good work on this. Cbl62 (talk) 14:02, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

Anyone object if we open up the list to include all players, not just the ones still active?—Bagumba (talk) 07:58, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

Ech. I dunno, that'd be a mighty large list. The whole purpose of the title change was to convert the article into a prose-centric one. Lizard (talk) 08:11, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

Although I'd be all for a list of countries by total players such as the one on PFR. I'd say list them in bullet point and columns format, like here except in alphabetical order. Lizard (talk) 08:28, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

On second thought, a sortable table would be more useful. Lizard (talk) 08:34, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

Prose and complete list can co-exist just fine. FWIW, WP:SAL says lists can be as big as 32K. Moreover, if we get a more comprehensive list, it would be easier to spinoff more specific lists like List of Latvians in the NHL.—Bagumba (talk) 08:39, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

There's already the horribly formatted List of Hispanic professional American football players (which was written in half English/Spanish until recently). Lizard (talk) 13:03, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

There is List of Canadians in the National Football League, which has all historical players. As an encyclopedia, it seems we should maintain a historical perspective instead of just churning active players in and out. It preserves people's work also.—Bagumba (talk) 07:56, 11 August 2021 (UTC)