Talk:List of Taiwanese inventions and discoveries

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Bopomofo should not be listed here[edit]

Bopomofo was created by Wu Zhihui in 1912. Though Wu is citizen of Republic of China, he was not citizen of Republic of China (Taiwan) yet on the time.--Reke (talk) 03:33, 31 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You're playing word games. Republic of China is the same thing as Republic of China (Taiwan), it's just that today Taiwan is the main island that ROC controls, doesn't mean ROC was somehow a different country. Today we commonly refer ROC as Taiwan, and ROC still follows its Constitution of the Republic of China, established in Nanjing. This argument is not valid.Kazuha1029 (talk) 03:38, 31 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
That will be strangeness. A citizen of ROC who never came to Taiwan and dead before 1945 can be list as a "Taiwanese" (Notice, the article title is "List of Taiwanese inventions and discoveries"). --Reke (talk) 03:45, 31 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The method was adopted by the ministry of education, which was created during pre-war times, and that same ministry of education still exists today in Taiwan, hence Taiwanese. It's the same government from before vs today. Bopomofo is exclusively used in Taiwan for Taiwanese Mandarin as well as Taiwanese Hokkien, and to this date is still in use and strongly encouraged by the Taiwanese government. If that's not Taiwanese I don't know what is. Further, please note that the term "Taiwanese" to refer to people in Taiwan changed over time. Up until the 70s people generally still considered themselves as Chinese and the rightful government to mainland China. The word Taiwanese here refers to ROC today. And by that you should look at its entire history, including times in the mainland, not just recognizing its inventions only after it has taken over Taiwan from the Japanese.Kazuha1029 (talk) 03:58, 31 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Whatever Taiwanese means, it should not be defined only as "citizen of Republic of China". Or Mao Zedong have ever been a citizen of Republic of China. Do you think it's reasonable to list "People's Republic of China" in the article?--Reke (talk) 04:14, 31 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure what you mean here. If Mao invented something during ROC times then yes it'd be ROC invention. If you later on made an invention in PRC times, it'd be PRC invention. Please note that Wikipedia defines Taiwan being a common name of Republic of China, so there's nothing wrong with the way the article stands and has been the consensus for a long time, until you showed up.Kazuha1029 (talk) 04:27, 31 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Mao has ever been a citizen of Republic of China.
  2. PRC is invented by CCP led by Mao when Mao still was a citizen of ROC.
  3. So, PRC is invented by Taiwanese Mao.
Do you agree this?--Reke (talk) 04:34, 31 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Your argument is completely ridiculous. Invention means: "An invention is a unique or novel device, method, composition or process. The invention process is a process within an overall engineering and product development process." Mao can't "invent" PRC, that's not what the word means. Republic of China = Taiwan, this is reiterated by President Tsai Ing-wen and is the current position of Taiwanese government. And by extension, ROC's history = Taiwan's history. If you only include ROC history post-war, then you're effectively cutting off a big chunk of ROC's history and the contributions made by the current Taiwanese forbearers. This is inappropriate. Further, if we only confine the definition as "Taiwan", ok, so what does that mean? Japanese Taiwan? Dutch Taiwan? Or Taiwan since pre-historic times? And is it only the island of Taiwan? Or would you include the islands controlled by ROC? If you include those islands controlled by ROC, then why are you not recognizing ROC for its entire history? You're only disagreeing but not proposing a better solution. I do not agree with your approach.Kazuha1029 (talk) 04:45, 31 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It doesn't matter what invention means. Even the PRC not be "invented", I don't think anybody will agree it is "created" by Taiwanese, because Taiwan is same as ROC today. Taiwanese is an idea about NATION, and ROC is a STATE. Yes sometimes we don't need to make a distinction between those, but sometimes it will make some strangeness conclusion as "RPC is created by Taiwanese."--Reke (talk) 04:58, 31 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Well, you gave a bad example regarding "invention", now you say it doesn't matter when you can't defend your argument, ok. Like you said, "Taiwan is same as ROC today", so what's the issue with bopomofo being Taiwanese because it's created by ROC? We seem to finally be coming to consensus now. Bopomofo (Zhuyin) is exclusively used in Taiwan, used for Taiwanese Mandarin and Taiwanese Hokkien, it's the most popular input method amongst Taiwanese youths which generally support Taiwanese independence, and it's still being taught at every elementary schools in Taiwan - I don't think there's any question as to why it isn't Taiwanese. Thank you for your contribution.Kazuha1029 (talk) 05:02, 31 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It's used by Taiwanese but not needed invented by Taiwanese. To recognize bopomofo is invented by Chinese won't change its importance to Taiwanese.--Reke (talk) 05:12, 31 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Like said, Taiwan = Republic of China, Taiwanese = People subjected to Republic of China. It's incorrect to call it a Chinese invention which implies it being PRC.Kazuha1029 (talk) 05:16, 31 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Quote from Taiwanese people:
    Taiwanese people may be generally considered the people of Taiwan who share a common culture, ancestry and speak Taiwanese Mandarin, Hokkien, Hakka or indigenous Taiwanese languages as a mother tongue. Taiwanese people may also refer to the indigenous peoples of the areas under the control of the Government of the Republic of China since 1945, including Penghu, Kinmen and Matsu Islands (see Taiwan Area).
    So Taiwanese could not include citizen of ROC before 1945, even Taiwan is ROC today.--Reke (talk) 05:22, 31 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    The article says: " or citizens of Republic of China (Taiwan)." And thus it includes anyone who were citizens of ROC.Kazuha1029 (talk) 05:29, 31 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • I think it's better to change the sentences of this article. Cause it has some problems if citizen of ROC before 1945 is included.--Reke (talk) 05:34, 31 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Okay but what do you propose? This has been the consensus and remained this way for a long time. I don't think there was any problem. To Chinese people, they wouldn't consider Bopomofo to be Chinese, and most Taiwanese people agree this is a Taiwanese input system, so what's the problem? I added revisions to clarify, should be very clear now.Kazuha1029 (talk) 05:42, 31 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Taiwanese do not include the Republic of China before 1949--葉又嘉 (talk) 05:46, 31 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please read the arguments above and provide constructive thoughts, rather than personal opinion. Your past contributions in English Wikipedia is equally limited, and many of them reverted so please do not do the same here.Kazuha1029 (talk) 05:49, 31 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Agree to 葉又嘉. It's more reasonable if since 1949 (or 1945 could be discussed).--Reke (talk) 05:52, 31 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Disagree. I've already made the article clear and 葉又嘉 did not provide any valid reason. You also failed to convince me why it should be deleted despite the article has already been improved. You further did not try to provide an alternative solution. Both of you had made 0 contribution to this article, and the first thing you do is to try to carryover a change that you deem to be fit from Chinese Wikipedia over your own political ideology.Kazuha1029 (talk) 06:02, 31 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • My reason is that it's better to follow Taiwanese people. The time when Bopomofo was invented is so much earlier then Second Sino-Japanese War, nobody would think it is invented by Taiwanese and will be used for Taiwanese someday in that time. List it in here is so senseless.--Reke (talk) 06:08, 31 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • And I told you my position above already above. Your presentation method is senseless to me too. Bopomofo is Taiwanese, used by Taiwanese, and issued by the Ministry of Education (which is also Taiwanese). Calling it Chinese implies PRC which is inaccurate. I would recommend you to leave it the way it is which is the existing consensus.Kazuha1029 (talk) 06:13, 31 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
        • Nobody said Bopomofo implies PRC, a Chinese could be some other regimes in history of China, including Republic of China between 1912 to 1949. And I all agree you that Bopomofo is used by Taiwanese and issued by Taiwanese government, but it doesn't prove the inventor should be a Taiwanese. We use a lot of things that aren't invented by Taiwanese person. The most important thing is when it was invented, Wu didn't become a Taiwanese yet. The Republic of China didn't rule Taiwan in 1918, or even didn't consider to ask Japan give Taiwan back yet.--Reke (talk) 06:29, 31 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
        • Like I said, Taiwan = ROC, I have reiterated this many times, this is also the official stance of Gov of Taiwan. Republic of China has existed since 1912, it makes no sense to say "oh prior to 1945 is Chinese, and after that is Taiwanese". And like I said, up until the 70s people still generally consider themselves as Chinese (ROC), not PRC. Taiwanese = Republic of China it's simple as that. Since we can not convince each other and going circles in our arguments. Let's just leave it to its current consensus.Kazuha1029 (talk) 06:34, 31 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
          • Though Taiwan is ROC today, you can't deny when enwp define "Taiwanese", it doesn't include the area before 1945. I'm considering to invite more editor of enwp to join the discuss. Maybe it will be helpful.--Reke (talk) 06:40, 31 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
          • You're actually very annoying. I've deleted it as you wish. You have won.Kazuha1029 (talk) 06:46, 31 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Iterative military updates don't add much.[edit]

None of the weapons listed here were transformative either nationally or internationally. They didn't invent the world's first assault rifle, so why are there 4 marginally different assault rifles here.

Ditto for the rest of the weaponry. 61.69.238.136 (talk) 01:46, 26 March 2023 (UTC) Also, for the same reason, I don't think TSL and Taiwanese braille belong unless they are radically unique. (TSL is a 'dialect’ of Japanese signlanguage, I know nothing about braille) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.69.238.136 (talk) 01:49, 26 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

These are indeed Taiwanese inventions, whether they are "unique" per your view that's your opinion. The fact they have their own dedicated Wikipedia pages proves notability already. Something like T91 assault rifles are standard issue equipment in Taiwanese military and also exported to other countries, I fail to see why you think something like this is not "international". By your logic, something like AK-47 is not a notable and transformative invention because it is not the world's first assault rifle either, how absurd. Similarly, why does it matter if TSL and braille is based on some other dialect. American English is also a dialect of British English so we shouldn't make a distinction there? Kazuha1029 (talk) 17:49, 26 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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