Talk:List of active separatist movements in Europe

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Belgium[edit]

Luxembourg (Belgium)[1]

Comores 123 (talk) 06:11, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No! Only source is from 2008. The "political party" creates 2 Google hits, the second is from 2012. Active? No!

References

  1. ^ "Luxemburgse Belgen eisen onafhankelijkheid".

These articles are kind of problematic[edit]

There's an inherent problem with these lists of badly sourced movements - people already inclined towards these subjects will take it at face value, which, given how regularly misinformation is added in here, deforms how one might look at the reality of it. I'm specifically mentioning user Comores 123 here, who has been spreading this kind of misinformation for a while now. Entities like and "Algarve" and "Lusitania" get regularly readded, despite it being blogposts by LARPing single people - the latter "movement" is very literally a person who talks about Roman oppression of the Celtic aboriginal people in modern day Portugal. Even more ... "real" entities, like Lusatia, are either outdated or don't represent any autonomist movement. The "Pied-Noir" movement is made out of a dozen of people and far from an actual movement. The main issue is that people who want to keep this dubious article clean don't want to monitor it all the time, yet a handful of users do seem to have the time and energy to reinsert their unfounded claims whenever nobody is looking. And this clearly contributes to the spreading of misinformation, especially in the vast plains of internet politics. There's an inherent need to lock this article down. --HolonZeias (talk) 19:12, 16 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

September 2023[edit]

@JackyTheChemosh: your claim that It's a separatist movement wishing to secede from Algeria which is entirely in Africa is factually incorrect: the pied-noirs are French nationals and based in France, therefore, the only country they can secede from is France. M.Bitton (talk) 12:42, 24 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@M.Bitton the sources exclusively talk about secession from Algeria not France JackyTheChemosh (talk) 12:58, 24 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Feel free to cite the sources that support the baseless claim (how can you secede from a country that is not yours?). M.Bitton (talk) 13:00, 24 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@M.Bitton Since the sources in this very list article cite "people born in Algeria" and "government in exile", it is very safe to assume their idea of a new country would be in Algeria, and probably not a secessionist movement anyway. This "movement" just doesn't have its place here and forcing it into the article is really annoying, I'll be thus removing it again. --HolonZeias (talk) 16:15, 5 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Where they are born is irrelevant to who they are (French people), where they are based (France) and their claim about seceding from their country (France). Also, what I said in my previous comment hasn't been addressed: how can you secede from a country that is not yours? M.Bitton (talk) 16:26, 5 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It has been adressed in the "it is not a secessionist movement in the first place then" part. If it were a secessionist movement in France, it would have its own region to secede with - not the case. Also, I am very convinced you do not read the sources you consistently try to readd all the time. Other than the non-existent primary source Pied-Noir website, the only extant info, from a Gabonese website, states:

La Vème République française, sans droit, ni titre, les a remis à la Ière République algérienne qui ne les a pas exploités, les laissant se dégrader ou être squattés ou faire l’objet de transactions illégales. Nous pourrions légitimement les réclamer au seul nom de notre Peuple.« La Fédération des Deux Rives demande à ce que ces territoires nous soient restitués afin que nous puissions les gérer dans le cadre du droit international, nous engageant à créer des hôpitaux généraux internationaux et des lieux de santé dans le droit fil des idées humanistes de Jean-Henri Dunant au service de la communauté internationale et des peuples en souffrances ».

They are, in your very own source, asking for the regions, "illegally transfered to Algeria", to be "given back" to the Pieds Noirs. Even Etat Pied-Noir the Wikipedia article (based on the same primary inexistent source and "Infosplusgabon") states that they want an autonomous or independent entity in Algeria. I will be removing this for a last time, as this is getting ridiculous. --HolonZeias (talk) 16:42, 5 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No, the article in question says that they want to establish a state in either France or Spain, which is irrelevant to the fact that they want to secede from France (this is what this list is about). You clearly haven't addressed any part of my comment. Please do so and refrain from edit warring. M.Bitton (talk) 16:48, 5 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
...what? The article does not state this in the slightest; it does not even mention the term Spain at all. The article does not, again, does not state they want to secede from France. Please reread it, and come back if you find anything that would prove otherwise. Also, again, I have adressed your comment - which is again non-sensical as the movement is about a region in Algeria, where they want to secede from as I quoted, not France. The whole "how can it be a movement in Algeria if the country is not theirs" is like saying there cannot a movement in Artsakh anymore as the whole population has fled to Armenia now. HolonZeias (talk) 16:59, 5 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Spain and France are mentioned and sourced in their article. For the last time, you cannot secede from a country that is not yours, just like you cannot renounce the citizenships that you do not possess. M.Bitton (talk) 17:03, 5 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Quote the article then. I have read it - no mention of Spain, no mention of independence from France. The closest thing to "independence from France" would be that they see France in their duty of intervention to restore a Pied Noir region in Algeria. See my direct quote above from this very article, which you have not read.
You seem to have quite a problem with the term "government in exile" to even dare saying that you can not secede from a country you don't currently live in. For the last time - read the news article. In French. Otherwise I can not understand how you come to that conclusion, or how you manage to get the term Spain into it. if you do not I will remove it - the sources don't cite a movement desiring a region in France - except if you consider Algeria to be part of the French heartland, which would be the only - quite imperialist - allusion they are making to in the article. HolonZeias (talk) 17:12, 5 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Taken from Etat Pied-Noir: "They dream of acquiring a separate territory in France or Spain, although they have made no specific territorial claims."
saying that you can not secede from a country you don't currently live in Nope, that's most definitely not what I said.
In any case, whatever their pipe dream might be, the fact is that the only country they can separate from is France, making them suitable for inclusion in this list only. M.Bitton (talk) 17:18, 5 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The source on the Pied-Noir Wikipedia article you are quoting - which cites a region in Algeria as their goal in the Infobox, like I said before, but you willfully ignored - doesn't link to anything, the website doesn't exist and the Internet Archive doesn't bring any results either. Meanwhile, the only existant page actually - the one I've been quoting since the beginning - mentioning a possible Pied Noir region clearly mentions the Algerian lands France has "abandoned". The only thing they want here from France is interfering in modern-day Algeria and give them the country. And again, not France, nor a French region, hence not Europe. And even if it were - in that case the Canaries, French Guyana, or New Caledonia should be included in this article, otherwise your logic just doesn't work. HolonZeias (talk) 17:32, 5 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I repeat: whatever their pipe dream might be, the fact is that, as French nationals who longer wish to remain French, the only country they can separate from is France, making them suitable for inclusion in this list only. M.Bitton (talk) 17:34, 5 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thus I will be adding French Guyana and New Caledonia to this list then, as they are French nationals as well. --HolonZeias (talk) 17:36, 5 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This edit a) doesn't make sense (those are not based in Europe, even though they are French) and b) seems rather pointy (while comparing apples to oranges, i.e., comparing them to those that are based in Metropolitan France). M.Bitton (talk) 18:37, 5 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Weird, seems to be exactly what you are advocating for. The current place of a government in exile or part or most of its exiled movement shouldn't matter, should it? They're all national citizens of France like the Pieds Noirs. HolonZeias (talk) 18:43, 5 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]


Response to third opinion request:
This is different from most 3O requests, in that I am being asked to make a judgment of the validity of content, vs. notability or Wikipedia guidelines. I have no prior familiarity with this topic, do not live in Europe or Africa, and should be a neutral party in this discussion. After reading around a dozen articles, both historical and current, I believe I have come to a fair and correct conclusion. I am going to summarize my findings in bullets, to make it easier for all involved to understand my thought process:
  • The Pied-Nor lived in Algeria during the colonial period but were always considered French citizens and never lost their citizenship to France.
  • At the time of the Algerian Civil War, most of the Pied-Nor left Algeria; many of these refugees were repatriated to France where they were promised restitution for their lost properties in Algeria. The scholarly article I reviewed specifically used the term "repatriated" which means to send someone back to their home country.
  • Thus, the Pied-Nor are French, not Algerian.
  • One million Pied-Nor left Algeria but their numbers now include some five million, meaning that the majority never lived in Algeria. These descendants of the original refugees live around the world, not just in France. However, one million do live in France.
  • The Pied-Nor in France have grown increasingly disgruntled with the lack of the promised compensation from France, limited work opportunities, and what they view as prejudice or bias against them by the general population and the French government. This sentiment is mostly found among the Pied-Nor who were working class or small land owners who returned to France with fewer financial resources.
  • Some Pied-Nor are also unhappy with what they perceived to be militant and violent actions of the French government. They want to live in a nation that has a more peaceful and neutral political stance. This is one of the stated goals of the Etat Pied-Noir in its founding documents.
  • The Etat Pied-Noir or Federation of Two Shores has filed paperwork to be a "provisional government in exile" with the United Nations. This is a political strategy to gain official international recognition and to be treated under existing regulations for political refugees. This also gives Etat Pied-Noir the right to form a new state.
  • Acting as a sovereign nation, the Federation of Two Shores has elected officials; created a flag, anthem, and constitution; and established an embassy.
  • In 2018, an official from the Federation of Two Shores said in this article, “Regarding the territory, we are in the process of buying it. Our research is concentrated between Genoa and Alicante." Note that this would be between Italy and Spain, and would include France.
  • In the same article, the official continues, "We have just signed a sales agreement for the acquisition of 285 ha of land north of Montpellier, near Viols-le-Fort. This will be our first embassy." He also notes that France is the "motherland" of the Pied-Nor. Thus, this is a group of French citizens who are defining their desire to separate from France by establishing an embassy in France.
  • Another article from 2018, says, "They are showing their desire to now have a territory, preferably in France and why not north of Montpellier in Hérault where a plot of land of 287 ha, or seven times the size of the Vatican, has been offered to them. But land and text are not the only conditions for a state to exist."

Thus, the Etat Pied-Noir is a political movement of French citizens with specific complaints against their home country who wish to create a separate country within France or French-adjacent territories. They are not expressing a desire to return to Algeria. I believe this fits the definition of a French separatist movement and is, therefore, appropriate for this article. Note that I am relying on two secondary sources, and not the group's website, in determining where the Etat Pied-Noir wishes to reside. Rublamb (talk) 18:21, 6 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Separatism meaning[edit]

Most of the definitions of separatism I have seen(including from Oxford and Cambridge) seem to consider the term to only include outright secession into a separate state. So I find it odd autonomist movements are included here What makes things more confusing is that the top paragraph of this article considers separatism to simply extend to Recognition of a national minority. Yet this doesn't seem to be repeated in the criteria . So shouldn't autonomist and maybe ethnic rights movements get a separate page from this? Rad da writer (talk) 12:09, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_regional_and_minority_parties_in_Europe
There seems to be a page for all these 3 types of movements interestingly. Rad da writer (talk) 12:19, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Raspberry Klin movement[edit]

Raspberry Klin movement - Independent Kuban is represented on thehttps://www.freenationsrf.org/leadership page is there a reason it is not on this page?

Thingsomyipisntvisable2 (talk) 18:08, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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