Talk:List of countries by incarceration rate

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"Only World Prison Brief figures are used in this article", ...[edit]

... say Timeshifter[1] and Thegoodguy3221.[2]

Why should they?

Neutrality requires that mainspace articles and pages fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources. (WP:NPOV)

— Guarapiranga ☎ 23:04, 28 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The article is called List of countries by incarceration rate. The main table caption says that the source is World Prison Brief. So the limitation is in the focus of the table.
If you want to use other sources then I suggest starting another table. But I will not be maintaining it. If you start it, then you need to maintain it. Good luck with that. You will soon learn why the regular editors are not interested.
If that new table is not maintained, then I will ask the other editors to spin it off to another separate list article. It will soon be deleted at "Articles for Deletion" if it is not maintained.
Using a single source for each table is common in many articles for all the above reasons.
And about neutrality, I don't see any lack of neutrality on the part of World Prison Brief. They are a long respected organization.
And using a single source that is vetting the data according to their own consistent rules is more reliable for comparison purposes. That means we editors don't have to vet hundreds of sources for hundreds of countries. People have tried concerning various country lists, and it can easily be a nightmare. --Timeshifter (talk) 00:45, 29 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  1. The article is called List of countries by incarceration rate.
    Precisely. No specification of source whatsoever.
  2. The main table caption says that the source is World Prison Brief. So the limitation is in the focus of the table.
    Changing a caption is no "limitation" at all.
  3. If you want to use other sources then I suggest starting another table.
    There's no reason why both data can't coexist on the same table. Different sources coexist on the same table at List of countries and dependencies by area, List of countries by GDP (nominal), List of countries by GDP (PPP), List of countries by GDP (nominal) per capita, List of countries by GDP (PPP) per capita... In fact, it is preferable that they do, so readers can easily compare them.
  4. But I will not be maintaining it.
    No one asked you to.
  5. If you start it, then you need to maintain it.
    Where did you pull that policy from??
  6. If that new table is not maintained, then I will ask the other editors to spin it off to another separate list article. It will soon be deleted at "Articles for Deletion" if it is not maintained.
    Sounds like to me you see yourself as the owner of this article (call it "maintainer" if you like), and are willing to wp:game the system to have your way with it (rather than working collaboratively by policy and consensus).
  7. Using a single source for each table is common in many articles for all the above reasons.
    Common but not required. What is required is that data and viewpoints from all reliable sources be accurately, verifiably and proportionately represented.
  8. And about neutrality, I don't see any lack of neutrality on the part of World Prison Brief.
    WP:Neutrality is not about neutrality of the sources—no source is neutral! Rather it requires that Wikipedia be neutral in relation to its sources (which, again, means representing them all accurately, verifiably and proportionately).
  9. And using a single source that is vetting the data according to their own consistent rules is more reliable for comparison purposes.
    Censoring reliable sources is consistently biased; a breach of WP:NPOV.
  10. That means we editors don't have to vet hundreds of sources for hundreds of countries.
    Editors do it everyday at List of countries and dependencies by population, for instance.
  11. People have tried concerning various country lists, and it can easily be a nightmare.
    Again, no one asked you to.
— Guarapiranga ☎ 01:19, 29 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose using other sources in this article. I don't want to waste time arguing with you,and wikilawyering. As evidenced on your talk page, and many other talk pages, you spend a lot of time doing that.
If you want to start another incarceration rate list page using multiple sources feel free to do so. There is no reason that table needs to be in this article, and I oppose it.
That other article can be linked from this article. --Timeshifter (talk) 04:49, 29 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I understand you oppose accurately and proportionately representing all reliable sources in this article. That's contrary to WP:NPOV. Call it wikilawyering if you like, but all editors are bound by WP:POLICY.
There is no reason that table needs to be in this article, and I oppose it.
Yes, there is: WP:NEUTRALITY:

Neutrality requires that mainspace articles and pages fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources.


If you want to start another incarceration rate list page using multiple sources feel free to do so.
You're acting like you own this article. Let me assure you: you don't. WMF does. — Guarapiranga ☎ 05:53, 29 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
As usual you in your many wikilawyering posts you ignore what others say, and misrepresent what they say. Many people have pointed this out to you. Go back and read my previous replies. --Timeshifter (talk) 07:10, 29 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"Crime in" and "Incarceration in" links[edit]

For more info see:

--Timeshifter (talk) 18:30, 4 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

United Kingdom[edit]

I couldn’t find UK 169.255.184.162 (talk) 07:44, 14 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I added a note in front of the main table. It links to this note:
List of countries by incarceration rate#United Kingdom.
--Timeshifter (talk) 12:12, 14 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Name[edit]

All 226 I see in the list are countries. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.249.44.2 (talk) 17:19, 30 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Please see this section of the article: List of countries and some dependent territories and subnational areas by incarceration rate#Territories or other subnational areas.
I was happy though when the article was named just List of countries by incarceration rate. That is the common title for these type of list articles. The other subnational areas are common bonus entries.--Timeshifter (talk) 01:55, 31 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Reverted back to "List of countries by incarceration rate"[edit]

See diff. My full edit summary (some of it was cut off due to length):

Timeshifter moved page List of countries and some dependent territories and subnational areas by incarceration rate to List of countries by incarceration rate over redirect: Reverting undiscussed page move by User:PK2. See talk. Longer name is not normal. See List of countries by intentional homicide rate. It also has territories and subnational areas. This is normal. Long name messes up Google search results for incarceration rates. All one sees is "List of countries and some dependent territories ..."

This was when I did this search:

After changing the name back within minutes it shows up at the top of the search results, along with part of the table. That is a much better search result.

See also: WP:CONCISE and WP:PRECISE. Those are some of the reasons in the page move drop down list.

Please do not change the name back to a longer name without discussion. It is time-consuming to move this page due to having to separately change the archive names too. And the name in the bot wikitext on this talk page.

User PK2 made the change to the longer name around Nov 27, 2022, assuming it was around the same time as his talk page move to the longer name. See diff.

Looking at the page views timeline (see the top of this talk page) there was a drastic drop in page views after Nov 27, 2022. Probably because of the Google search problem mentioned previously. The page views are already back up after reverting to the short name. 2 times higher than during the slump. According to this thread: Wikipedia talk:Article titles#Google limits length of titles in search results. Big difference in page views. --Timeshifter (talk) 00:11, 21 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Article needs full update. Easier if more tables used[edit]

I don't have the time or health to do it. And merging data columns can be tricky if there are different numbers of countries used for different column topics at the source:

  • Count. Rate per 100,000. Male (%). Female (%). National (%). Foreign (%). Occupancy (%). Remand.

Breaking up this wide table into a couple narrower tables would help. For much help see: Help:Table#Tables and the visual editor (VE). --Timeshifter (talk) 21:26, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Incarceration rates and counts fully updated[edit]

This is relatively easy to do because the 2 reference pages (one for rates, and one for counts) necessarily have the same number of locations. Counts are needed to calculate rates. So the columns can be pasted next to each other. See Help:Table.

That is not true for the other columns (see User:Timeshifter/Sandbox220). They have differing numbers of countries. This can make it a nightmare to combine them all into one table without many errors.

Please do not add more columns to the main table of rates and counts. That way it can be updated more often. And it makes for a narrower table that can be easily viewed in cell phones.

If someone wants some of the other columns please put them in a separate table in a separate section of the article. And please create the other tables from the latest data at World Prison Brief. The data at User:Timeshifter/Sandbox220 is way out of date. --Timeshifter (talk) 11:22, 27 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Timeshifter: Thanks, but we need the old table here as well, as it had more data subgrouped by population groups. Also, a historical table is needed, I think. --95.24.65.132 (talk) 06:59, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You, or others, can feel free to create more tables. Just don't combine them with the main table of rates and counts. And be sure to pull up the latest numbers from World Prison Brief. Add note like on the main table: "This table fully updated July 26, 2023. Some individual countries since then". --Timeshifter (talk) 16:36, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"By" in title of article[edit]

I've edited to change the first line of the article to reflect what it is. It's a bold edit as per WP:BRD. This is not a list by incarceration rates but by alphabetical order, it seems to me. A list by incarceration would list each country according to the incarceration rate. I think that's right. If so, the title of the article should be changed too. Emmentalist (talk) 15:24, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is common in titles of list articles. Do not change the article title without consensus. I oppose it. Editors of each list article decide whether to put the table in alphabetical or numerical order. But the title is still the same.
We decided long ago to keep this article in alphabetical order because individual countries are updated in between the full updates. That can change the descending order, thus requiring moving countries up and down the list. Which is often not done.
It is easy to click the sorting icon to get numerical order. --Timeshifter (talk) 15:49, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for this comment, @Timeshifter Not sure I follow, though. The article is obviously a list by alphabetical order, but you're saying we should mistakenly call a list by incarceration because that's what it's been called until now and because the same mistake exists elsewhere? These seem to me reasons to correct the other erroneous pages, not to fail to correct this one. Just to be clear, I didn't change the title of the article. All the best, Emmentalist (talk) 09:21, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just because a list is initially in numerical order isn't a reason to change the article name. It's still a list of incarceration rates. The primary factor is incarceration rates. Order is secondary. And we don't want to change article titles every time a new consensus is reached on the initial order. And sorting puts the list in numerical order. So it actually works no matter how you are defining things. It's a multipurpose title. :) --Timeshifter (talk) 20:54, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's obviously a list of incarceration rates! That's what it should be called! It's equally obviously not a list "by" incarceration rate. We don't need to change the order at all, just take the "by" out of the title. By the way, it's not a numerical list, it's an alphabetical list. The numbers are extraneous since they simply refer to the alphabetical order. For goodness sake. All the best, Emmentalist (talk) 08:16, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Numerical order by the numbers in either the counts or rates column. I don't think we should start renaming all the country lists to one of these type of names depending on the initial sort order (an order that may change over time):
Alphabetical list of countries by incarceration rate
List of countries in descending order of incarceration rate
--Timeshifter (talk) 17:04, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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