Talk:List of educational programming languages

Eiffel anyone?[edit]

What about Eiffel? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.130.71.87 (talk) 07:26, 11 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know if Eiffel was ever intended educationally. It seems to me from its inception that it was intended for commercial use. It is only recently that eiffel has been free for academia. Why would you propose Eiffel? jbolden1517 ^Talk 20:10, 11 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Eiffel should not be included. He was probably thinking of the teaching language Blue which was coded ~1997 and based on Eiffel. Blue was forked and re-coded by one of the main developers based on Java and renamed BlueJ. BlueJ is on the list. See Eiffel for more info. Dtgm (talk) 14:45, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Eiffel was created because Bertrand Meyer was frustrated, that other OO languages were not suitable for teaching (There was not a clear one to one relationship between OO concept and language concept). He wrote Eiffel and used it for teaching for many years. Because of its design, of being simple, as opposed to simplified, it is also a very good language for professionals. It still remains one of the best languages for learning Object Orientation, but probably not a good first language. ctrl-alt-delor 08:29, 2 July 2018 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.150.89.62 (talk)

Doubtful Selection[edit]

This collection appears quite doubtful to me. If this is about programming languages that were designed for educational use, Pascal is the first coming into my mind. But also Logo and Squeak fit in here. As for easy programming, Basic (free version: Gambas) has to be mentioned.

Another turf are educational developing environments (EDE) presenting a reduced and simplified to 'adult' programming languages as Java or C++. Here we must mention JavaKara and GreenFoot.

Python[edit]

I'm somewhat mixed on Python. On the one hand it is a good choice as an educational language which is mainstream. On the other I haven't seen much evidence of heavy University focus nor do I see evidence of a focus on education. But I do know it is involved in the OLPC project as a language. So.... let me just open this up to comment. What do you all think about Python? jbolden1517 ^Talk 18:44, 12 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I really added it as a 'suitable' educational programming language. I know it wasn't created primarily as such though. --CharlesC (talk) 20:43, 12 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Charles, exactly my point. Look at the first line of the article, this is a list of "An educational programming language is a programming language that is designed primarily as a learning instrument and not so much as a tool for writing real-world application programs." I don't see how python meets that criteria. You'll notice C++, Java, C, Perl, HTML aren't on the list of the same reason. I think it is worth mentioning one of the scripting languages and Python strikes me as the most educational. So anyone I took your paragraph and made it more about python and education. Feel free to alter. jbolden1517 ^Talk 14:50, 13 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Looks fine, thanks. Whoops, didn't notice list was alphabetical too. --CharlesC (talk) 15:58, 13 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Python is not an educational programming language. I don't see why it's on here. An educational language is one that was 'made for educational purposes. Python does not fit this criterion. The only thing that makes it even loosely "educational" is its pretty syntax. It doesn't belong here. — ^Fatal Error 20:04, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm thinking of putting python back in. With GVR and Sugar we have a python path that makes sense. Since this was previously deleted I'll wait for any comments. jbolden1517 ^Talk 02:15, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

But... why? Python is not an educational programming language. — ^Fatal Error 05:41, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well the thing is I can see a path now. The situation is analogous to Greenfoot/Java, Scratch/Smalltalk, Logo/Common LISP. GVR is unquestionably for small children. Sugar takes the idea of the Smalltalk UI and gets it to the level that 8-10 year old can program their own UI objects (on a 3rd world computer). So I think that creates a path. jbolden1517 ^Talk 13:16, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Found more links at python edu,native speakers jbolden1517 ^Talk 14:21, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That's an "A and B, therefore C" argument, which falls under WP:SYNTH. Python itself is not an educational programming language, even though it may be used by universities. If you look at the articles for Greenfoot, Guido van Robot, etc, they all state in the first sentence that they were developed for educational purposes. Python was not.

We could add a section of non-educational languages used for education by universities, if you'd like. I think that would be fine. — ^Fatal Error 20:46, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sure but neither are Java, Common Lisp or SmallTalk. That's the point of the path. Sugar and GVR will play the role Greenfoot, Scratch and Logo. jbolden1517 ^Talk 13:46, 5 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oh... I think I misunderstood you. You want to add a "Python-based" path? If I'm interpreting you correctly, that would be fine. Sorry for any misunderstandings. — ^Fatal Error 23:02, 5 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oh yeah, this is slightly off-topic, but thanks for the Haskell ref; I knew Haskell is popular among universities but I didn't know it was made with education in mind (The History of Haskell doesn't mention it). — ^Fatal Error 23:04, 5 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

OK good I'll add the python path. Also a few more languages to the meat of the article. As far as Haskell designed for education and research as well as apps, that's goal #1 on the ref (#6 in the article currently) which is at [1]. There is also another mention at [2], where he indicates purely functional is of greatest importance for education. jbolden1517 ^Talk 00:42, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

How many Python-based languages do we have? — ^Fatal Error 02:45, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hmmm.... Seems to depend on exactly how we count. A heck of a lot of dialects, but to quote Weber "a language is a dialect with an army". I think for a computer language, a new language is a dialect with a community that doesn't speak the parent language. Python doesn't have that yet but seems to be trying to create it. I'm starting an investigation to figure out how to handle this. What I am starting to see as the way I'd like to handle is:

We have a lot of mini-languages in Python designed for education
We need to cover Sugar in more depth because this is genuinely important (I think). Because Alan Kay is involved in E-Toys and E-Toys formed a core part of Sugar the constructivist stuff moved over. I'm trying to think about how to explicate this without WP:OR
We have some dialects that either have or look they are starting to break off. But they don't have an army (separate community)

So right now no good answers, just questions jbolden1517 ^Talk 07:09, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well the reason I asked is I don't think it would be appropriate to add a Python based path without a sufficient amount of languages. If we only have two, that's not going to be enough to warrant its own section. Let's see how many we can find before we create the section... — ^Fatal Error 23:15, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Notes[edit]

Just a list of refs for now. Not looking for responses just using this as a mini- to do list

List?[edit]

Since this article is nothing but a list, I suggest moving it to List of educational programming languages. If we have an article in its place, it should thoroughly explain what an educational programming language is, their history, etc. As is, all the article is doing is listing languages. Thoughts? — ^Fatal Error 20:07, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Honestly I'd rather have a more thorough explination, history.... If you want to add that stuff it would be great! jbolden1517 ^Talk 09:34, 21 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well my point is that it should either be an actual article or just a list, we shouldn't have both on the same page. And seeing as how the content is not yet developed, I suggest moving this to the page I suggested above, and then creating a new page here with the actual content (once some is written). I'd write it myself but I know close to nothing about the subject (other than what it is...which we already have). — ^Fatal Error 09:57, 21 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that it would be always better to improve the content rather than to move the article or to delete the content. Macaldo (talk) 08:26, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's been two years and the actual content of this article has not been improved. I'm going to move the article to List of educational programming languages. — ^Fatal Error 23:09, 21 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

HLA[edit]

What about HLA (which the developer insists does not stand for "high-level assembler")? http://homepage.mac.com/randyhyde/webster.cs.ucr.edu/index.html

Game Maker[edit]

No mention of Game Maker? It is one of the most common educational languages. In Australia it is the most commonly used in grades 5 to 10. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.4.229.4 (talk) 22:46, 25 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Its not in the cat. It sounds like an EPL is it? jbolden1517 ^Talk 17:47, 27 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's got a scripting language built in called GML (Game Maker Language) that is based loosely on Delphi, only with considerably more flexibility (allowing the code to end up looking more like BASIC or Java). But it's definitely a great tool for teaching game development. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.175.90.218 (talk) 04:57, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. GML can also be used to create normal applications (though it's terribly slow). My GML skills, when peaked, were highly advanced and made it easier to enter (Delphi) programming, so I have to +1 on the educational part. --Daniel-Dane (talk) 10:39, 22 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

kodu and mama in chart[edit]

I'm deleting the refs since the age spread is too large and I don't know if either is popular enough. Plus they are both commercial. To the people who are adding them do you have any WP:RS about their usage over such a large spread of ages (7-20?). jbolden1517 ^Talk 17:45, 27 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

ABC (programming language)[edit]

Ought to be included? Described as a teaching language. 92.15.11.6 (talk) 17:11, 14 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Gamestar Mechanic?[edit]

Shoud be included! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.66.64.245 (talk) 12:21, 13 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Scratch - Smalltalk learning path?[edit]

IMHO, Scratch should be moved to another section rather than being in the "Smalltalk-based" learning path. Early versions may have been created using Smalltalk. However, the language's beautiful graphical interface doesn't lend itself to a single learning path. Its more of a tool that teaches the concept of imperative programming. Users can go onto practically any language from there. What does everyone else think? I recommend a "Multiple Path" category. --DevinCook (talk) 19:01, 26 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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Wolfram not an educational programming language[edit]

I have removed some ads for Wolfram here: [3], [4], [5] for the reasons given in the edit summaries. Main reason: i.m.o. this not an educational programming language. It does not serve to educate the art of programming, but rather to work with a commercial product. Feel free to discuss. - DVdm (talk) 19:20, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. Re-removed it- Spacepine (talk) 01:44, 4 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Trimming[edit]

I've removed languages that weren't designed primarily for education purposes. I've also and renamed the main section to types of educational programming languages, and removed any reference to learning paths. Given that people learn to code using a variety of languages, some education based, some not, it is misleading to suggest that there is any one sequence of learning. Probably going to resructure the rest of the article too, input is welcome. --Spacepine (talk) 05:05, 4 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Requirement of Resources[edit]

While this article is quite informative, the lack of resources and citations is quite disappointing.

I was assigned this task as a newcomer, but while cleaning up the grammatical errors and adding links, I noticed that there are dangerously few citations, especially in the "Children" section (which I think should definitely be renamed. I was wondering if a more seasoned editor could maybe try to cite this information, to improve the quality of this article?

Thanks!

-- Moonlit witch (talk) 17:50, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]