Talk:List of monuments and memorials removed during the George Floyd protests/Archive 4

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Subheadings are not accurate

If you have a heading Spanish imperialism (I wouldn't capitalize imperialism), Columbus should be under It.

"Other" includes items related to indigenous people.

deisenbe (talk) 19:16, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Wasn't Columbus Italian? Kire1975 (talk) 22:09, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

good point. i've moved the columbus section and commented out the spanish imperialism heading so that the indigenous peoples section is structured similarly with respect to columbus as the confederate section is with respect to virginia. if we decide to move some of the items under the "other" section, the imperialism heading can be easily commented back in, and the columbus heading demoted a level. feel free to undo this restructuring if you disagree.

also, i think columbus was italian, but was financed by spanish monarchs, so he would probably also fall under "spanish imperialism". dying (talk) 23:46, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Not only did Columbus have Spanish financing, he was sailing in Spanish ships, with Spanish crews, with whom he conversef in Spanish, departing from and returning to Spanish ports. He corresponded in Spanish and kept his naval log in Spanish. I haven't checked exhaustively, but I'm unaware that we have even one line that Columbus wrote in "Italian". (I put Italian in quotes because the concept of an Italian language, called Italian, was unknown in Columbus's day.) Italian Americans — not Italians — latched onto him as a symbol at a time they felt they needed one. To say he was Italian is misleading.deisenbe (talk) 11:44, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

If being born in Genoa to Genoese parents no longer qualifies someone to being described as Italian, what does? XavierItzm (talk) 06:42, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

@XavierItzm: Christopher Columbus is worth a read. If the lead is accurate, I wouldn't describe him as being or speaking Italian either. Being Genoese and speaking Ligurian (which appears to have separated from the branch containing Italian language at the Romance language subdivision), among other languages, maybe. —[AlanM1 (talk)]— 20:00, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Holy hair splitting, Batman! Now erasing whole nationalities. I'm sure the Ligurians will be excited to hear their forebears are no longer considered to be Italian. XavierItzm (talk) 21:50, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

A more important question than whether they are considered Italian, is whether they considered themselves Italian, in the fifteenth century. deisenbe (talk) 07:24, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

i think it is hilarious how much attention this discussion about whether columbus was italian is getting, especially since i had thought i rendered the point moot after restructuring that section, but i would like to point out that, when using the word "italian" to describe columbus, i used the word as an adjective referring to the the italian people rather than the modern westphalian nation state of italy, especially since columbus not only predates the founding of the kingdom of italy, but also the peace of westphalia itself, while the name of italy has been around for at least 3000 years. i am not sure how much weight i would give arguments based on what language he used, since i don't think the italian people were called that because they used the italian language.

also, i prefaced my original conjecture on columbus' description with the phrase "i think", not because i was unsure whether the city of genoa could be arguably considered italian, but whether he considered himself genovese in the first place, not only because most historians only seem to agree that he was born somewhere in the republic of genoa, which included areas outside of modern italy during columbus' time, such as corsica, but also because he did not seem to spend much time in the city of genoa anyway, hoping from place to place in europe and africa during his youth as one would expect an explorer to have done.

by the way, although this is not dispositive, the columbus article currently states that he was italian in the lead's first sentence.

anyway, sorry for writing all of this. i admit, it might have been overkill. dying (talk) 17:02, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Notes

Background section

IMHO the reader of this list article needs context. This all didn't happen out of nothing. So I started the following:

Main article: Removal of Confederate monuments and memorials

New Orleans had begun removing slaveowners' names from its schools, even George Washington, in 1992. The names of Jefferson Davis, Robert E. Lee, P.G.T. Beauregard, Judah P. Benjamin, and others were removed,

Aside from that precedent, the movement to remove monuments to the Confederate States of America, its leaders, and its military is commonly said to have begun with the Charleston church shooting of June 17, 2015. The perpetrator, Dylann Roof, is a white supremacist who posted the Confederate battle flag on his website. Responding to public sentiment, the Legislature of the State of South Carolina, by the required 2/3 vote, repealed the statute requiring the flying of the Confederate battle flag at the South Carolina Capitol. It was removed on July 10, 2015.

Following this, a series of monument removals and renaming began. The same year, the City of New Orleans began a campaign to get five monuments removed; they were removed in 2017. Baltimore removed three monunents; ....

I'll finish it if it isn't going to be immdediately deleted. deisenbe (talk) 22:43, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

I like the template:main at the top. Quite an extended version of removal history is in the article Removal of Confederate monuments and memorials. Though we think of it as another list-article, it isn't. It's a full blown article (with a lengthy list at the end). I hesitate to put too much into the lede of List of monuments and memorials removed during the George Floyd protests, because it might be considered a WP:CONTENTFORK. I would leave the sort of historical content, as is in your sample, for the Removal page. In this list-article, one might mention briefly that removals have occurred for many decades, but that there have been several "waves" of removals since 2015 (this being one of them), and point them towards the removal article for a more in-depth look at the topic. Normal Op (talk) 00:27, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

Gosh, Deisenbe, you're like the top editor of the Removal-page. How long have you been working on this topic? Normal Op (talk) 00:58, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

Two years. I started the original List of Confederate monuments and memorials, and wrote most of the text at the beginning of the Rejovsl list. Also see Silent Sam. ¶ Go ahead and do what you propose for the lede. deisenbe (talk) 02:08, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

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Ethiopian statues

The statues that have been toppled or damaged in Ethiopia were a result of the shooting of Hachalu Hundessa. Perhaps they were influenced by the iconoclasm going on elsewhere, but the Bust of Haile Selassie and the Statue of Ras Makonnen should probably be removed from this list as they are not related to George Floyd. gobonobo ^{+ c} 02:40, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

I agree, I was confused as to why it was included in the article, specially after reading the related news link. Seems much more related to ethnic conflict in Ethiopia than to the George Floyd protests directly 177.225.145.89 (talk) 15:52, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

Not sure of the source of confusion: the conflict in the USA, and indeed the actual death arose from ethnic conflict in the USA. We have the removal of the statue of the British Imperialist, Cecil Rhodes. The toppling of Ethiopian imperialists happens as part of this global movement. Leutha (talk) 08:51, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

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Statue of Christopher Columbus (Central Park)

An IP editor updated Statue of Christopher Columbus (Central Park) to say the statue has been removed. I added a 'citation needed' tag and we should keep an eye out for official confirmation. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 20:06, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

A statue was removed from a park in Buffalo, NY today, but I haven't been able to find any references to a Central Park removal. I would expect a removal from Central Park to get coverage in nation-wide news sources, yet I was unable to find coverage of this supposed removal in even local media. I imagine this was just a factual slip-up. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 20:30, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

Spirit of Eagle, Possibly, or this just happened today and hasn't been confirmed by press yet. Thanks for noting the Buffalo statue. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 20:32, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

i'm assuming, at this point, if the statue in new york's central park had actually been removed, there would have been a mention of it somewhere, even at least on social media, nearly 10 hours after the edit was first made, but i can't find anything at all. i'm currently assuming that it was a good faith contribution by an editor who mixed up the two statues, accidentally connecting the mention of a columbus statue in new york being removed with the one in new york's central park. i'm now worried that its mention on that page may contribute to the spread of misinformation, even with a citation needed tag, so i'm going to comment it out. feel free to revert my decision if you feel otherwise. thanks for noticing this, Another Believer, and for raising the possible connection to the statue in buffalo, Spirit of Eagle. dying (talk) 05:57, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

In the future, I think we should place the burden of proof on those claiming a specific monument has been removed. This article is unusually politically charged (compared to the average Wikipedia article) and any misinformation here has a disproportionate likelihood of causing harm to public discourse or disrepute to Wikipedia (just imagine what would have happened if some right-wing meme had denounced the removal in Central Park and cited the claim to this article). To be clear, I am not suggesting that we strike every entry with just the slightest flaw or to otherwise behave in a needlessly cut-throat manner. However, I think that if there is an uncited removal that we are unable to verify after a reasonable search, then it is entirely appropriate to remove it until sourcing is found. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 18:19, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

agreed on all points. i have been trying to do the same with the name changes article. dying (talk) 19:04, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Double agreed! Thanks, Spirit of Eagle. Normal Op (talk) 21:47, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

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Statue of Virgin Mary decapitated and other similar incidents

I think these are related to the George Floyd protests and belong here. Someone disagrees, so it's here for comment, .

Here is an article on some of them: https://www.thecatholictelegraph.com/attacks-on-catholic-statues-continue-over-weekend/68007 deisenbe (talk) 11:39, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Perhaps we could have a new section for Christianity related monuments? (I'm personally convinced by the source). Spirit of Eagle (talk) 02:39, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Arthur Ashe Monument

Resolved

[1] Richmond is removing the Arthur Ashe monument from Monument Avenue due to a request from his family. Ashe was a famous African-American tennis player; his family was worried that the statue would be attacked in retribution for the removal of all of the other (Confederate) monuments in Monument Avenue. Should this be added to the list? The removal wouldn't have occurred but for the protests, although the connection is kind of attenuated. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 04:31, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

Spirit of Eagle, BTW, I just created a stub for Statue of Arthur Ashe. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 04:44, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

This should be on the list,since the decision to remove the statue took place during the period. Not everything that happened during the period was pretty. Some was ugly. deisenbe (talk)

[2], False alarm. Ashe's family claims that this was merely a contingency plan, and that the want the statue to stay (the city announced it would follow the wish's of Ashe's family). Ironically, this means that Ashe, a black tennis player, will have the last statue in an avenue once dedicated to leaders of the Confederacy. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 03:07, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Also, I've updated the Arthur Ashe statue article. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 03:39, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Should we have a section on the removal of Christian monuments?

There have been a number of Christian monuments and statues that have been removed during the protests and I think it would be appropriate to group them together in their own sections. I have concerns which made me bring this here instead of boldly creating the section myself. First is the sourcing: we would need a descriptive header for the section, and the only reliableish sources I have been able to find are Catholic (not independent of subject) or conservative-leaning (bias). I'm honestly fine using these to establish some basic facts for the description, but felt the need to check in. Second is the issue of determining what goes in. Some of these are less obviously connected to the protest and it may be difficult to determine what fits. I'm fine with stating this in the description and removing monuments if they are determined to be entirely unrelated, but again wanted to check in. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 03:39, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

What to do with statues that get torn down during the middle of the night by unknown people

We have a few statues (Frederick Douglas, the Virgin Mary, and the 77th Union Infantry memorial) that were toppled during the middle of the night by unknown perpetrators. While some media sources do speculate that the topplings are connected with the protests, we have no meaningful evidence of this or to dismiss equally plausible motives (like apolitical vandalism) as the cause. I do not believe it is appropriate to list these monuments in their current location; this falsely implies the statues were unquestionably removed by protestors. Personally, I would prefer moving these statues to a "speculation" section which would list the statues and explain why there is a speculated connection. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 03:40, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

The point is not who tore them down or why. The Heg statue was torn down by people who had no idea who he wss. They're on the list because the events took place during the time period. That's the connection. deisenbe (talk) 20:02, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

I'm going to backtrack on my position and agree with you with two reservations. First, if there is ambiguity regarding the removal, this absolutely needs to be stated in the description column. Second, if the removal is truly unrelated to the protests (i.e. a city's WWII courtside WWII memorial is removed during scheduled renovations so it isn't actually crushed by machinery and there is no evidence of pre-text), then it should not be listed. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 02:38, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

I've re-added the statues. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 04:36, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

UDC

what the heck is (the) UDC? seems to be govt agency(-ies) taking these down in various states, yet term not ONCE expanded!

googling mostly leads to Univ DC. and the "United Daughters of the Confederacy"(!) -- is it indeed them trying to get out in front of the issue? 66.30.47.138 (talk) 05:44, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Yep, it is in fact the United Daughters of the Confederacy. Long story short, they are a pro-Confederacy group responsible for the erection of a ton of Confederate monuments. From a lot of the sources, it sounds like they've seen the inevitable on certain statues and taken them down before the government or protestors do. I agree the term should be explained somewhere. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 15:46, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

The Promised Land, Portland, Oregon

This IP edit suggests removal of The Promised Land (sculpture). Confirmation needed. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 13:40, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

Sourcing needed, but I can confirm the artwork has been removed:

• 
• 

---Another Believer _(Talk) 01:02, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

I'm signing off

I started this list and have contributed to it much more than anyone else.

I was finding incidents by searching for Confederate, rename, and statue in news.google.com. Note that on that site you can specify with when:8h or when:2d how far back the search should go.

They have gotten so numerous that I'm getting nothing else done, and I have other things to do. So I'm going to stop. The big changes are over – Richmond, Alabama, the Mississippi flag, the Navy and Marines. (Your results may vary.) The only ones still being hammered out as of today are the military base names and the Charlottesville statues, but it's clear which way the wind is blowing. Then there are left, of things of some national significance, just the statues in the Capitol. My own state of Florida, and others as well, have already been removing Confederate figures. (No one wants the statue of Edmund Kirby Smith that is being removed – his birthplace St. Augustine doesn't want it, it was going to go to a county museum but there is a big local stink over it, so I doubt it's going there.) There will be more, but these take years. Florida's was decided in 2018, but the replacement statue still isn't ready.

Yesterday there was something, and I didn't save it, about someone's project of setting up a national database of Confederate removals.

The older List of Confederate monuments and memorials and Removal of Confederate monuments and memorials need to be updated, some has but not all.

deisenbe (talk) 19:52, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for all of the work you have done on this page. You've done an incredible job documenting the removals, and the page has become an incredibly useful source thanks to your efforts. We'll try to keep things updated now that you are stepping back. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 02:52, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Thank you so much deisenbe! This is hands down the most useful and comprehensive list of its kind. Kudos. gobonobo ^{+ c} 07:16, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

Additional statues

Resolved

I ran this list again and two additions:

• A Confederate statue was removed from Farmville, VA
• Christopher Columbus park in San Antonia Texas was renamed

Spirit of Eagle (talk) 04:35, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

The Farmville statue has been added, and the name change will be voted on sometime in August. The news recovering makes it sound like the change is a done deal, but until we have something official we can't add it in. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 02:55, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Mission San Gabriel Arcángel

Why is the fire at the Mission San Gabriel Arcángel included here? I'm aware that the mission's history is controversial, but I can't find a reputable source definitively stating the cause of the fire, much less whether it was intentional and/or related to the protests. The fire may be accidental and its timing merely coincidental. Until a credible allegation of protester involvement is made, I think it should be removed from the list. Carguychris (talk) 15:56, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Quite frankly, we need clear standards on what gets included and how. Back when the removals started in early June, it was very easy to make this determination but at time went on the motives have become increasingly harder to pin down. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 19:34, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

I agree about the need for inclusion criteria generally, but in this particular case, the word "removed" in the article title clearly specifies an intentional and deliberate act by humans. This is not necessarily the case for the mission fire; every credible source I've found says that the cause is undetermined and under investigation, so the fire may be an accident or an act of God. Until more facts become known, the fire should be left off this list, per WP:CRYSTAL. Carguychris (talk) 20:29, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

I completely agree. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 02:04, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Associated Press list

Resolved

Associated Press drew up their own spreadsheet of the Confederate monument removals. It includes removal dates and geographic coordinates. Looks like their count so far is 63. I've yet to cross-check it against this list. gobonobo ^{+ c} 07:27, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

I took a quick glance, and it appears that there were some cannons removed from Richmond. Good find by the way. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 21:09, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

I just finished going through the list. It looks like we are missing:

• Maryland Remembers (Annapolis, Maryland)
• Judah P. Benjamin Memorial (Charlotte, NC) [3]
• Richmond Cannon (earthwork defense plaque) (Richmond, VA)[4]
• Richmond Cannon (second line of defenses) (Richmond, VA) ^^

Spirit of Eagle (talk) 03:56, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

I crossed out the "Maryland Remembers" listing, as this appears to be a plaque that already appears in the article (the plaque has the phrase "Maryland Remembers" in a prominent position). Spirit of Eagle (talk) 02:09, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Cannons added. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 02:34, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Benjamin marker added. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 02:43, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Should temporarily removed monuments be included?

Recently, the Judah Benjamin marker (an incredibly obscure marker in Charlotte) was removed from the list. The justification for the removal was that the the sourcing states that the removal is only temporary pending a more in-depth study. My question is whether temporarily removed monuments should be included on the list. I personally believe that the temporary removal of a long-standing monument is noteworthy and that this does fall, quite textually, within the article's scope. However, others may certainly disagree and I wanted to get some additional opinions. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 04:29, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

i agree with your reasoning. in addition, i don't believe there currently is a requirement that the removal be permanent, and there are clearly at least three other examples of removals currently on the list that appear to have been intended as temporary removals (which can be found by searching for the word "temporarily" in the article). also, simply because a memorial was intended to be removed permanently does not mean that it can't be eventually restored to its original location anyway, and if that were to happen, i am not sure if it would be appropriate to remove the corresponding entry from this list. furthermore, i think it would be impractical to determine whether each removal from this list was actually intended to be permanent.

if some sort of distinction needs to be made, i believe mentioning it in the "Means of removal" or "Description" column, as seen in what appears to be the current practice, should suffice. dying (talk) 06:00, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

Dying, Yes, I think temporary removals should be included, but also think it'd be helpful to differentiate temporary and permanent removals in some way. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 14:33, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

Full disclosure, I removed Spirit of Eagle's addition. I understand the perspective that temporary removals are noteworthy, I initially thought there was a distinction between other entries on the list being temporary to protect vs temporary to study. But the more I think about it, I believe all should be noted, but an additional color may need to be used to indicate if any of the statues are returned to their original location later on. MikiLove24 18:00, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

Perhaps we could create a "Re-installed" section once some of these monuments go up? Granted, we may run into the issue of distinguishing a relocation from an installation, but I'm fine crossing that bridge once we get there. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 02:18, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

I concur about adding a "Reinstalled" section later, if/when any such installations actually take place. I disagree with adding colors or sections at this time; per WP:CRYSTAL, we are not in a position to evaluate the credibility, feasibility, and/or likelihood of uncertain future reinstallation plans. Doing so would be speculative and would violate Wikipedia guidelines. Noting the possibility of future reinstallation in the "Description" column is adequate for now. Carguychris (talk) 19:19, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

Benjamin marker

I've re-added the Benjamin Judah marker in light of the above conversation about temporary removals. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 02:39, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Old Market House will be removed

Resolved

[5] A slave market, built 1795, will be removed from Louisville, Georgia following a vote by city council. It will likely face some legal issues and they don't have plans for where it will be relocated, but the removal order is official. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 03:27, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

Building added. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 03:42, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

2 more statues in Portland, Oregon

• https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/10/12/columbus-day-protest-roosevelt-lincoln-statues-portland-toppled/5965214002/

Statue of Abraham Lincoln (Portland, Oregon)

Theodore Roosevelt, Rough Rider

---Another Believer _(Talk) 12:35, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

Lincoln:

• 
• 
• 
• 
• 
• 

Roosevelt:

• 
• 
• 
• 
• 
• 
• 

---Another Believer _(Talk) 01:54, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

Monument to Christopher Columbus (Paseo de la Reforma)

Should Monument to Christopher Columbus (Paseo de la Reforma) be added? ---Another Believer _(Talk) 22:47, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

Yet another in Portland, Oregon: Statue of Harvey W. Scott

Shall we add Statue of Harvey W. Scott? ---Another Believer _(Talk) 17:02, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Source

• https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/splc-160-confederate-monuments-year-76059165

---Another Believer _(Talk) 14:16, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

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Statue of Christopher Columbus (Chula Vista, California) at AfD

• Statue of Christopher Columbus (Chula Vista, California)

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Requested move 6 April 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Consensus against the move as proposed. Some alternatives have been proposed, but none of them gained a clear consensus. (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 20:44, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

---

List of monuments and memorials removed during the George Floyd protests → List of monuments and memorials removed due to the George Floyd protests – Some of these actions took place after the protests were over, depending on how that is defined. — Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 21:25, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

Actually I think this might be a good idea.Slatersteven (talk) 15:55, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

• Some were damaged, not removed. Peter James (talk) 16:09, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
  • Then even more need for a rename.Slatersteven (talk) 16:22, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose as proposed: It's not much easier to tie many removals directly to Floyd than it is to define the timeframe of the Floyd protests. As implied by the recent comment by User:Bubba73, it makes more sense to move this page to List of monuments and memorials removed due to the Black Lives Matter movement. Carguychris (talk) 16:40, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

  That is better.Slatersteven (talk) 16:43, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

  The manner of Floyd's death, captured on video, triggered a global protest movement, and changed public perception of the Black Lives Matter movement. Renamings and monument removals didn't happen because of the Black Lives Matter movement or even other police killings in 2020. Without Floyd's death, these changes don't happen, though other events were compounding factors. Minnemeeples (talk) 16:58, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

Perhaps; I'm certain that, in 2121, historians will still be disputing the influence of Floyd's death on the BLM movement and the removal of these monuments. However, proposals to remove many of these monuments predated Floyd's death, so it's dubious to assert that these removals occurred "due to" the Floyd protests (as BarrelProof argues below). The protests were often only one of several factors influencing the decision makers. Carguychris (talk) 20:19, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

I proposed "due to" because of List of changes made due to the George Floyd protests and List of name changes due to the George Floyd protests. If you have a problem with "due to", perhaps you should suggest changes to those lists' names. I see your point, though.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 20:38, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

Renaming those other lists would be a good idea. As far as I can tell, their current titles are not the result of consensus discussions like the one we are having now. On top of the problem of trying to figure out whether something happened because of George Floyd protests, there is another problem here of needing to figure out exactly what is a George Floyd protest and what is not (and whether a monument-specific protest or multi-issue protest or broader topic protest or generally disorganized civil disturbance is considered primarily a George Floyd protest or something else). — BarrelProof (talk) 22:24, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose: The proposed title asserts a cause-and-effect relationship that would often be impossible to establish. It is easier to identify a period of time than to reach a clear conclusion about why something happened. — BarrelProof (talk) 18:45, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

Thank you; that is a more eloquent way of making the argument I was trying to make in my first sentence.Carguychris (talk) 20:19, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

See my comment above about the other list names.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 20:39, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

• Comment: As long as the consensus is that the George Floyd protests are still active, I have no problem with keeping the name.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 21:05, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

I agree. It will likely be easier to reach consensus after the Chauvin trial is behind us, as this may provide a definitive closure date. Carguychris (talk) 14:57, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose - It remains to be seen whether the protests are over and whether it's during or due to. Guettarda (talk) 22:48, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose For a lot of these monuments, causation is unclear or ambiguous. We can find reliable sources saying they were removed within the context of the George Floyd/Black Lives Matter protests, but claiming that all of these monuments would not have been taken down but-for the protests is original research. I would support changing the name to "during the Black Lives Matter" protests though as this is probably a more accurate description. (The killing of George Floyd was clearly a catalyst and a major element of the ongoing protests, but trying to separate one element from another will be virtually impossible). Basically, I see the protests as a broad event and don't think we should be splitting hairs. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 03:06, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

I agree with the two comments above.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 18:01, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

• Support, but I think the title could be improved. Not every removal can be attributed directly to George Floyd’s killing or specific protests, but the wave of removals, both spontaneous and official, was a movement that followed in the wake of and overlapped with the protests. And the double object is redundant, so for WP:PRECISION and WP:CONCISEness I suggest List of memorials removed after the killing of George Floyd. —Michael Z. 21:38, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

SPLC list of Confederate monuments removed in 2020

The Southern Poverty Law Center published a list of 168 monument and other removals across 20 states in the year 2020. A lot of descriptions are minimal (there are a ton that provide nothing more than "Confederate Monument" and the state they were removed from, so I think it would be most useful to go state by state. I've added a list below of everything missing from our three removal articles, which I give all editors permission to edit. If you add in any entries, please cross them out on this list so other editors can keep track of everything.Spirit of Eagle (talk) 01:16, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

States:

• Alabama
  • A monument (not plaques) at the University of Alabam
  • Edmund W. Rucker Elementary School (name) (Not enough sources to include. Fort Rucker building a new elementary school that would have this name, but appear (based on my original research) to have gone with another name).
  • Nott Hall at the University of Alabama (name)
  • Morgan Hall at the University of Alabam (name)
  • Confederate Veterans Memorial This is almost certainly the Confederate Soldier Memorial, which was removed in late October and which is already included on the list. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 04:35, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
• Arkansas
• Arizona:
  • Picacho Peak Confederate Monument (stolen)
• California
  • Jeff Davis Peak (now Da-ek Dow Go-et Mountain)
• District of Columbia
  • Robert E. Lee statue (I'm assuming from the Capitol Rotunda)
• Florida
  • Robert E. Lee Monument (removed September)
  • Stonewall Jackson Middle School (renamed “Roberto Clemente Middle School”)
  • Confederate Monument removed in September
  • Confederate Monument removed in October
• Georgia
  • Clarke County Confederate Monument (removed in August) (Seems to be referring to Athens Memorial already on list; Athens is a Georgia City comprising the entirety of the former Clarke County).
  • Two COnfederate Drinking fountains removed in August
  • Confederate War Memorial removed in November
• Indiana
• Kentucky
• Louisiana
  • Robert E. Lee Junior High School (renamed to Neville Junior High)
• Maryland
  • Jeb Stuart Trail (renamed “Northern Edge Trail”)
• Missouri
  • Kennard Classical Junior Academy (renamed Classical Junior Academy)
  • Price's Great Raid Monument
• Mississippi
  • Jeff Davis Elementary School (renamed Back Bay Elementary)
  • Mississippi Gulf Coast Community College Jefferson Davis Campus (rename “ Harrison County campus”)
• North Carolina
  • Henry Lawson Wyatt Memorial Fountain (removed June; distinct from Henry Lawson Wyatt Memorial)
  • A Confederate Soldiers Monument removed in August (in addition to one already on this list)
• Pennsylvania
• South Dakota
  • Gettysburg police uniform emblem (should be listed in other changes article)
• Texas
  • Robert E. Lee Elementary School (renamed “Sunrise Mountain Elementary" in August)
  • Confederate Park Drive (renamed “Veterans Way” in September)
  • Confederate Park (renamed “Liberty Park” in September)
• Virginia
  • Jefferson Davis Statue (removed in June; distinct from monument on list)
  • Virginia Defenders of State Sovereignty Confederate Soldier (June)
  • Princess Anne County Confederate Heroes (removed July)
  • Fitzhugh Lee Monument at VCU Monroe Park campus (July)
  • Lee Memorial Park (renamed “Petersburg Legends Historical Park” in July)
  • City of Remington Seal (August)
  • Williamsburg Confederate Monument (August)
  • Robert E. Lee Portrait (September)
  • Daughters of the Confederacy Plaque (September)
  • Maury Hall at William & Mary VA Inst. of Marine Science (rename “York River Hall” in September)
  • Confederate Monument removed in October
  • Confederate Avenue (renamed “Laburnum Park Boulevard” in November)
  • Captain John Quincy Marr Monument (Novmber)
  • Dahlgren Howitzers (November)
  • Withers-Brown Hall at UVA (renamed “Brown Hall” in November)
  • Stonewall Jackson statue at Virginia Military Institute (Decmber)
  • Nearly two dozen removals/renamings at the VCU Medical College of VA
• West Virginia

While I'm at it, here are some removals found by Another Believer in the archives that haven't been added in yet

• Statue of Harvey W. Scott
• Monument to Christopher Columbus (Paseo de la Reforma) (will need to create Mexico section)

Question

I'm just jumping in here, but so we know that these were directly because of George Floyd and not general protests, like Black Lives Matter? Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 22:52, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

Bubba73, I, too, have wondered if we've expanded this list beyond original scope. In my opinion, we should not include entries in this list unless there's at least some source specifically attributing removal to the George Floyd protests. The line between George Floyd protests and the wider Black Lives Matter movement has blurred, so another option is to expand the article's scope beyond George Floyd specifically. Curious for other editors to weigh in here, and this might be a great opportunity to invite Wikipedia:WikiProject Black Lives Matter to this Talk page. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 21:44, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

I know I'm a bit late here, but I think pinning down causation for removal is going to be a massive headache. First, reliable sources clearly state the George Floyd protests are the cause of the mass monument removal of 2020, but a lot of removals that seem plainly linked to the protests occur without comment on motivation or are merely noted by the media to occur in the context of the George Floyd protests. Second, separating the George Floyd protests from the wider Black Lives Matter movement will be very difficult, and we'd also have to deal with outgrowths such as actions by Native Americans against Christopher Columbus statues. I think what's important here is that these monuments were removed chronologically during the protests and that the removals were part of the mass re-evaluation of historical memory that occurred during that time. This is a much more workable (albeit broader) standard and will almost certainly be more useful in 20 years than a list of only the removed monuments that had a clear causal connection to a specific aspect of the Black Lives Matter movement. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 05:05, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

Order of countries

The recent proposal to add a Mexico section for the Paseo de la Reforma Columbus monument made me wonder: what is the logic behind the article's current listing order of countries? It's logical that the U.S. should remain first, as the George Floyd killing occurred in the U.S., the protests started there, and the number of removed monuments dwarfs that of any other country. That said, it seems more logical to list the other countries alphabetically than in their seemingly scattershot current order. For what it's worth, regarding some archived talk page comments about U.S. states, I think that chronological or reverse chronological ordering is confusing and non-intuitive in this case. Carguychris (talk) 15:06, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

I support Carguychris's proposal of US first then alphabetical. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 15:23, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

I'd recommend listing Great Britain after the United States as there has also been a fairly large spat of removals there (which is noted in the lede summary), but otherwise support the proposal. As for the United States, is anyone able to use a program to sort? The list is utterly massive and I truly pity whoever decides to re-sort it by hand. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 23:55, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

The order is chronological by the first removal, or plans for removal, in that country, except that I think Cambodia was slotted in between Barbadas and Canada on the misunderstanding that the order was alphabetical. Ham II (talk) 16:45, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

Ok, that sounds reasonable. Someone should probably put in a hidden note about the chronological ordering. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 19:16, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

What about the monuments and memorials introduced because of George Floyd/Black Lives Matter?

Hello Wiki people,

In Wolverhampton, UK, there was a blue plaque memorial put up in memory of Paulette Wilson, a Black British immigrant rights activist. It is the first blue plaque in the UK (and the world?) to commemorate the "Black Lives Matter" movement. Perhaps this would be of interest to this page, and maybe in future there will be more monuments added. See recent article in the Guardian and picture of memorial

Perhaps there should be a section for memorials added in the aftermath of George Floyd protests?

References

That blue plaque is not verifiably connected to George Floyd nor Black Lives Matter. FDW777 (talk) 21:20, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

BLM-related artworks could potentially be added to Black Lives Matter art. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 21:24, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

Francis Drake questions

The removal of the Francis Drake statue in California is noted, citing as reasons his involvement with slave trade, colonialism, and piracy. Was the removal of the statue triggered by protests against his piracy activities? Not asking if he was engaged in piracy, but asking if that was consciously part of the reason for removing it. I couldn't read all the cited sources, but what I could access did not list that as a reason for removing the statue. Looking for facts. Pete unseth (talk) 19:45, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

His involvement with the transatlantic slave trade and his association with colonialism were the main reasons, as the two news references indicate. But his activities as a pirate contributed to his unsympathetic reevaluation and were noted frequently by those who advocated for removing the statue. For example, the Marin Independent Journal article includes an interview with a participant who "added that Drake was a slave trader, slave owner and a human trafficker who engaged in rape and pillaging." Ynizcw (talk) 09:34, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

Criteria for inclusion in the list

Bearcat has removed several Canadian entries on the grounds that they were insufficiently related to the George Floyd protests, and asserted that "anything that had to do with Kamloops rather than BLM doesn't belong here." It's a fair point, but I believe it merits more discussion. One of the entries that Bearcat deleted referred to a statue of John A. Macdonald that the city of Regina removed before the revelation of unmarked graves at the Kamloops Indian Residential School. Another deleted entry referred to a statue of Macdonald in Picton that was initially considered for removal in November 2020 but was left standing, only to be removed in response to the Kamloops revelation. I think a less restrictive policy is prudent here and would recommend restoring these entries unless and until a better way of organizing them emerges.Ynizcw (talk) 05:34, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

"Initially considered for removal in November 2020 but was left standing, only to be removed in response to the Kamloops revelation" means that the removal had nothing to do with the George Floyd protests. And a statue being temporarily removed, pending a decision on a new location to put it back up in, doesn't belong here either, given that the reasons for deciding to move the statue had nothing to do with the George Floyd protests either. Basically, nothing belongs here unless you can source that the George Floyd protests themselves were the reason for the removal. Bearcat (talk) 05:43, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

I just think that it's an overstatement to say that the removal had nothing to do with the George Floyd protests. According to this news report, the Prince Edward Heritage Society announced a public discussion on the fate of the statue on June 26, 2020, at the height of the protest movement. It was then red-painted on June 29, as were many other statues of Macdonald at that time. So while the proximate cause of its removal was the Kamloops revelation, the context for that decision was clearly related to the George Floyd protests. And as I mentioned, the statue of Macdonald in Regina was removed before the Kamloops revelation, so it really doesn't make sense to delete it on the grounds that "anything that had to do with Kamloops rather than BLM doesn't belong here." I take your point that the sourcing could be strengthened, Bearcat, but in this case I think it is more constructive to request improvements than to summarily delete the work of another editor.Ynizcw (talk) 07:19, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

Still on the Picton statue, this news report notes that the ‘Holding Court’ Statue Working Group recommended in October, 2020, that the statue be removed. The Working Group included two members from Black Indigenous People of Colour, Black Lives Matter, All are Welcome. So in this case, at least, the process was initiated during the protests and involved members of a BLM-affiliated group. It seems pretty clear to me that it belongs on this list.Ynizcw (talk) 07:42, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

It's not a question of the timing of when the removal of the statue was proposed — it's a question of the reasons given for why the statue was removed. That County Live article says nothing about the Picton statue's removal having anything whatsoever to do with George Floyd — it explicitly says that the reason was Macdonald's relationship to First Nations issues. And Regina, again, did not dismantle a statue — they merely decided to move a statue from one location to another, and did not do so in the context of anything related to George Floyd either, but over Macdonald's relationship to First Nations issues. So neither incident is attributable to George Floyd at all, because both discussions hinged on First Nations issues: the timing of when it happened doesn't make it Floydian, if the reasons given for why it happened weren't Floydian.
So no, there's no point in simply "requesting improvements" when the relevance and accuracy of content is actually in question: the onus should be on the person who wants the content to be there in the first place to properly demonstrate its relevance, not on everybody else to give it the benefit of the doubt. Bearcat (talk) 07:50, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

As I see it the monument has to have been removed in response to the George Floyd protests and no other reason.Slatersteven (talk) 09:17, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

The removals (which includes relocation) of the Macdonald statues in Picton and Regina were both initiated during the George Floyd protests (the city of Regina initiated its review of its statue in June, 2020). Bearcat argues that these should be excluded because they are related to First Nations issues, but the page itself notes that the scope of the protests quickly extended beyond anti-Black police violence to include symbols of racism more broadly. The section for Canada even explains that "In Canada, removed statues were attacked in a general anticolonialism context rather than being directly linked to the typical BLM targets in Britain or the United States." I also think that the standard that Slatersteven offers is unworkable: historical events typically have multiple causes. Here, also, the page itself notes that "Some of the monuments in question had been the subject of lengthy, years-long efforts to remove them, sometimes involving legislation and/or court proceedings," which recognizes that the George Floyd protests can contribute to a removal without being the only cause. I propose that this page adopt the standard that entries should include evidence that the protest movement contributed to the removal. Under that standard, I would also recommend that the entries for the Macdonald statues in Picton and Regina be restored, at a minimum. Other entries that Bearcat deleted might also be restored if documentation can be provided that meets this standard. Ynizcw (talk) 15:35, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

We need RS linking (linking them, not saying they were contemperanious) them, not wp:or.Slatersteven (talk) 15:38, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

This list's title should change to Monuments and memorials removed in the 2020–2021 racial unrest to prevent endless argument over how closely connected each removal is to the George Floyd protests. (For the term "racial unrest", see 2020–2021 United States racial unrest, List of incidents and protests of the 2020–2021 United States racial unrest, and 2020–2021 Minneapolis–Saint Paul racial unrest. While these are using the term in local and national contexts, it clearly applies in a global one as well.) My sense is that "during the George Floyd protests" was only ever a provisional way of defining the scope of this topic until it became clearer what exactly it was. It's splitting hairs to exclude works if the sources happen not to mention Black Lives Matter or George Floyd when (e.g.) all the removals of statues in Canada in the last year are clearly related phenomena, with campaigning for racial justice being the common motive. I'd second more or less everything Spirit of Eagle said here, in April:

"I think pinning down causation for removal is going to be a massive headache. First, reliable sources clearly state the George Floyd protests are the cause of the mass monument removal of 2020, but a lot of removals that seem plainly linked to the protests occur without comment on motivation or are merely noted by the media to occur in the context of the George Floyd protests. Second, separating the George Floyd protests from the wider Black Lives Matter movement will be very difficult, and we'd also have to deal with outgrowths such as actions by Native Americans against Christopher Columbus statues. I think what's important here is that these monuments were removed chronologically during the protests and that the removals were part of the mass re-evaluation of historical memory that occurred during that time. This is a much more workable (albeit broader) standard and will almost certainly be more useful in 20 years than a list of only the removed monuments that had a clear causal connection to a specific aspect of the Black Lives Matter movement." Ham II (talk) 19:28, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing to the archive, Ham II, I hadn't been aware of that when I started this section. I largely agree with this framework for what to include. I also completely agree with the idea of changing the title of the article, although I hesitate to remove the explicit reference to George Floyd (presumably there was some discussion of this on the 2020–2021 United States racial unrest?). It's possible that the end date would need to be extended beyond 2021 to accommodate changes that take longer to achieve, but people can deal with that in 2022.Ynizcw (talk) 20:04, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

It was not renamed George Floyd protests is the article about the George Floyd protests.Slatersteven (talk) 09:46, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

Use of the word "removed" to describe monuments and memorials that were merely toppled and / or vandalized

"Removed", in the title and the text of the article, doesn't fit with many of the entries as they are at present. Removed clearly implies deliberate, consensus action by the powers that be. Statues that were toppled or vandalized were just that--toppled or vandalized. If it's knocked over or on fire, it hasn't been removed, it's been messed up a little. It's still there.

It would be better to either change the title to something like, "List of monuments and memorials toppled, vandalized, or removed during the George Floyd protests", or limit the article to those m&m that were in the common meaning of the word removed.

I think the title is fine as is. If a statue is toppled by private citizens, then it has by definition been removed (even if it was not the government that did it). Toppled is thus redundant. As for vandalized, this would be an utterly massive expansion of the article's scope. We're already struggling to get every monument listed and to determine what is within the scope of the article; expanding the article to every statue with paint splashed on it is just too much. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 19:31, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

I don't agree that toppling is the same as removal, but most toppled statues are then removed by some governmental body. Only a very few have been reerected. Some statues were actually destroyed. deisenbe (talk) 19:52, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Right, but the way it is now it's not clear what current status is. My interpretation of the article's geist is that it is meant to catalogue semi-permanent or lasting changes. Perhaps all just "toppled" statues should be removed.

A lot of statues that were toppled by protestors have remained down even a year after their toppling (for example, I've seen no indication that the Statue of Charles Linn, toppled in May 2020, has been put back up). Further many local governments have shown no interest in putting toppled Confederate statues back up. Even though the government did not take down a lot of these statues toppled by protestors, I think a lot of these topplings meet the definition of "removal" given how long the statues have remained down for. I would also argue that the very fact that statues have been taken down, even if unofficially and temporarily, is a major occurrence within the scope of this list. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 20:03, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Good point. Some of those have not been removed and still lie toppled or vandalized. How about changing 'removed during' to 'affected by'? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:16, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

This sounds reasonable to me, though it is a little awkward as a phrase in English.

Or List of monuments and memorials removed or vandalised during the George Floyd protests?Slatersteven (talk) 15:01, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Which topped or vandalized statues are "lying"? Examples, please. deisenbe (talk) 16:16, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

The title is fine as is. Per WP:NCLL, the relevant guideline: "The title is not expected to contain a complete description of the list's subject ... Instead, the detailed criteria for inclusion should be described in the lead, and a reasonably concise title should be chosen for the list."

I am fine with clarifying language that we are including statues that were toppled, destroyed, etc. I wouldn't favor adding "vandalized" as I think the scope expansion would be detrimental, but I don't have a policy/guideline reason to cite for that part. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 17:53, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

• "Removing" includes toppling. Monuments and memorials which have been vandalized, but not to the point of being destroyed, shouldn't be part of this list's scope, per Spirit of Eagle and Firefangledfeathers. Ham II (talk) 11:59, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 10 July 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. sorry folks. This has been open for almost 6 weeks and no end in sight. I would recommend if anyone still wants to do this, to make an RM that incorporates the feedback from this discussion (more concise name, in line with old naming style), and argues that point in a concise manner with added sources which depict the connections being drawn (e.g. unrest broader than George Floyd). (Or consider making a parent article which has that scope). Without these changes/evidence pieces, it doesn't seem likely any opposed editors here would be convinced. At the moment, it's clear that there is no consensus among discussion participants that the proposed name is more accurate or in line with policies. (non-admin closure) — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 21:14, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

---

List of monuments and memorials removed during the George Floyd protests → Monuments and memorials removed in the 2020–2021 racial unrest – This list's current scope, restricted to removals connected to the George Floyd protests, is causing some removals to be excluded when they are part of the phenomenon the title attempts to describe.

Specifically, the Canada section is cut short at removals before spring 2021, when mass graves were discovered at a number of residential schools, as of this edit. This means that two statues of John A. Macdonald taken down in 2020 are included, but not the four statues of him (so far) taken down in 2021, nor the memorials to Egerton Ryerson, Joseph Hugonard, Queen Victoria, Elizabeth II and James Cook which have also come down. The rationale that the first wave of removals is part of the George Floyd protests and the second is not creates an artificial cut-off point which doesn't serve the reader, who I expect would be looking for coverage of all related removals of statues during this current period of upheaval. It also makes it look as if only two statues have been removed in Canada as part of this phenomenon, which is misleading. The toppling of symbols of Canadian settler colonialism is of a piece with, for instance, the felling of statues of Christopher Columbus which occurred early in the protests.

The scope of this topic is essentially the removal of memorials or artworks linked to systemic racism (and any others which came down during, or as a result of, anti-racism protests), in the wave which started with Floyd's murder and which is ongoing. Having to justify the inclusion of individual cases by proving a connection to the George Floyd protests would be, as Spirit of Eagle noted in the italicized quotation in the discussion immediately above, "a massive headache", when the scope could be more broadly defined. There are precedents for using the term "racial unrest" in the article titles 2020–2021 United States racial unrest, List of incidents and protests of the 2020–2021 United States racial unrest and 2020–2021 Minneapolis–Saint Paul racial unrest. I've left out "List of" to give the title some much-needed brevity. Ham II (talk) 12:54, 10 July 2021 (UTC) — Relisting. BD2412 T 02:48, 9 August 2021 (UTC) — Relisting. Muhibm0307 (talk) 04:47, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

I believe those are really separate issues, and this is about a specific reaction to a specific envet.Slatersteven (talk) 13:43, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

And yet these specific reactions to specific events are taking place in the more general historical context of the racial unrest that followed the murder of George Floyd. The list includes monuments from all over the world, and the specific motivations for their removal vary. Also, some of the removals that were completed after the revelations of unmarked graves in Canadian residential schools were initiated during the racial unrest after George Floyd's murder in the US. We could go around in circles indefinitely on this question. This list aims to collect information about contemporary events, and the proposal provides a way to continue that process in a way that can accommodate events such as the Canadian outcry over residential schools. Ynizcw (talk) 17:54, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose The "racial unrest" was not global, unlike the scope of this article. FDW777 (talk) 08:53, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
  • I'd dispute that, but if there's felt to be more than one "racial unrest" going on, would Monuments and memorials removed during racial unrest in 2020–2021 be better? Ham II (talk) 20:09, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
    • If that's the case, why is the parent article at 2020–2021 United States racial unrest? There is no global racial unrest covered in the article. This article and 2020–2021 United States racial unrest cover two different areas. Georgr Floyd protests =/= racial unrest. FDW777 (talk) 20:15, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
      • 2020–2021 United States racial unrest wouldn't be the parent article under the proposed scope; if the broader phenomenon of racial unrest in 2020–2021 had an article, that would be the parent of this list. Ham II (talk) 20:31, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

• @Another Believer, BarrelProof, Bearcat, Bubba73, Carguychris, Featous, Guettarda, Minnemeeples, Mzajac, Normal Op, Peter James, Spirit of Eagle, and Vchimpanzee: Pinging all contributors to these four earlier discussions of the list's scope who haven't already posted here. Ham II (talk) 19:47, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
• I was going to see what others had to say first, but since I was pinged, I'll support a move to Monuments and memorials removed during racial unrest in 2020–2021 or similar. Many sources about these removals do not actually mention George Floyd specifically. This wave of monument removal may have been prompted by the George Floyd protests, but I'd argue the list has a much wider scope currently. If the list were only to include monuments/memorials specifically attributed to George Floyd protests in reputable coverage, much trimming would be needed. However, I think having a wider scope is fine, as long as we have a title which reflects the full scope. I think "racial unrest in 2020–2021" is more appropriate at this time, but I am open to what others think/prefer as well. Will continue following along... ---Another Believer _(Talk) 20:15, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
• Support amended proposal to move to "during racial unrest" as suggested by Ham II and Another Believer; this is adequately concise to meet WP:COMMONNAME and WP:CONCISE without implicitly tying causation to any single movement or event. Carguychris (talk) 23:06, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

• Support . Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 23:46, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
• Support I stand by my previous comments. George Floyd’s murder poured fuel on a long-standing debate over historical memory and commemoration; the removals have expanded far beyond a mere reaction to the murder of a specific individual. Limiting the article to listings where there is a source establishing a direct, causal relation between the murder of George Floyd and the removal is so overly narrow as to misrepresent the event documented (and also makes maintaining the list needlessly difficult). Spirit of Eagle (talk) 04:03, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose Were these part of an overall global movement, or just coincidental with one? Most of the statues removed were due to their (perceived) association with the slave trade. As a direct result of George Floyd's killing and the BLM movement.Slatersteven (talk) 15:37, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

  Slatersteven, Right, but not only the killing of George Floyd. You just mentioned the BLM movement. I agree! So shouldn't we expand the scope of the article title? ---Another Believer _(Talk) 15:54, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

  No, as what is being asked is not to expand it to include BLM, but also a whole raft of other issues not related to BLM. This is why there is an article about racial unrest and another about the Gorge Fplyd protests.Slatersteven (talk) 15:57, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

  Slatersteven, in an encyclopedic context, it is infeasible to directly link many of these removals directly to the Floyd protests or BLM. There is often no published source meeting WP:RS that directly makes this link, and when one does exist, it often leads down a rabbit trail of claims and counterclaims. Proposals to remove many of these monuments predate Floyd's death by years or even decades. It's not Wikipedia's job to settle historical disputes of this sort. That's why it's preferable to tie the article name to a general movement rather than a specific event or organization. Carguychris (talk) 16:33, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

  If RS do not make the link neither can we. And that is what this proposal wants to do, make it seem like this was all one linked event.Slatersteven (talk) 16:37, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose Reliable sources have described how global outrage over the murder of George Floyd and the video of it resulted in an inflection point unlike any other killings of Black Americans by law enforcement, including even those in early 2020, such as the killing of Breonna Taylor. Many of the reliable sources about statute and memorial removals discuss them in the context of George Floyd. Also, one could argue that the 2020–2021 Minneapolis–Saint Paul racial unrest article is really a child of the article George Floyd protests in Minneapolis–Saint Paul, and not a parent of it, as the George Floyd protests set in motion a sustained, prolonged period of local unrest that did not occur after the killings of Jamar Clark, Philando Castile, etc. I say have two articles for memorials and statute removals and follow what reliable sources say about the removal. If they are described as part of a reaction to George Floyd's murder, then keep them on that list. If they don't, then include them in another more broadly defined article. Minnemeeples (talk) 16:38, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

My problem with this proposal is that its going to require a lot of nitpicking, hair-splitting, convoluted rules that twist every which way, and ultimately original research. Take for example the mass removal of Christopher Columbus statues: reliable sources state that these removals were inspired by the George Floyd protests, but it would be inaccurate to state these removals occurred solely within the context of George Floyd. Further, there were a massive number of memorials removed in the weeks following the murder of George FLoyd. Reliable sources state that this mass removal was a direct reaction to the murder, yet many of the specific monuments removed do not have reliable sources making the connection between Floyd and the removal. Even further, there were additional BLM protests and removals during this time catalyzed by killings other than Floyd; if we go by this rule, we'd have to parse out which BLM protests and removals were inspired by which killing. (The fact that many protests were in reaction to multiple killings would make this even more difficult). I could go on and on, but I do not think this proposal is workable. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 20:55, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the discussion. George Floyd's murder was the catalyst for a wave of monument removals according to many RS (e.g., [6], [7], [8], [9], [10], [11], [12], [13] and etc.). I think two articles is the way to avoid arbitrary criteria and original research. If the article discusses it in the context of Floyd, it goes in the Floyd-related article, and it can also go in a broader, "kitchen sink" article as the two list articles are not mutually exclusive. I think the project would benefit from more careful review of the cited RS, rather than just a wholesale page move that arbitrarily minimizes the impact of Floyd's death despite what RS have said about it. I suggesting creating a totally new article with everything and then boldly editing the Floyd-related article to remove things that are not supported by any RS as being the result of protests of Floyd's death. Minnemeeples (talk) 00:46, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

I really do think that trying to distinguish Floyd-inspired removals from non-Floyd inspired removals is going to be incredibly difficult and that for a lot of removals it is legitimately vague whether it occurred within the context of the George Floyd protests. If you think I'm overstating the difficulty, I invite you or anyone else to sort the Virginia Confederate monument removals between the two categories in your sandbox and to provide a brief justification for the classification of each removal. (This could just be a bulleted list). If you could cleanly sort the removals (perhaps with a few clear-cut rules of thumb), then this would be decisive. By the way, if the article is renamed as suggested, it should absolutely describe the killing of George Floyd as the primary catalyst of the removals. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 15:06, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

Agreed with Spirit of Eagle; Minnemeeples, I've observed that the official reasons for removing many monuments are deliberately vague, contain obvious misinformation, and/or say more about stopping or forestalling protests than anything else. It's relatively easy to relate these statements to racial unrest but individually tying them to Floyd is another matter. Carguychris (talk) 15:34, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the continued discussion. We may have to agree to disagree on this, my friends. :) I just don't think a page move is a wholesale improvement of the project. Another recommendation is that editors in this project identify several of the best sources that list out statues removed during George Floyd protests, rather than editors doing the synthesis themselves. Then use that set of agreed-to sources to establish which are connected to Floyd and which are broader in scope, or belong on both list articles. Let RS do the heavy lifting. For example, after some super quick internet searching, here are some possible sources that have lists of monuments removed related to Floyd's murder: Time on June 24, 2020; NPR on August 12, 2020; The Hill on June 6, 2020, etc. Minnemeeples (talk) 15:52, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

That is what we should alwayss do, only include things that RS say are part of something, and not rely on wp:or.Slatersteven (talk) 15:58, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

Using master lists isn't going to be helpful: the media largely abandoned attempts to make a comprehensive list by the end of June and I strongly suspect that any lists that do exist will have used this article for reference. I really think we should just be making a comprehensive list of Confederate and other racially controversial monuments removed during this time period. I've been looking through the list and even some of the most notable monuments don't make a causal connection. For example, Richmond has been stripped clean of its Confederate monuments, but few of the removals established a clear causal link between the murder of Floyd and the removal; most of the official reasoning danced around the plain and obvious cause for why the monuments were coming down. Even the most forward officials are just saying things like "its time" or "this is racist." Also, I don't think its original research to say that a monument is (a.) controversial for racial reasons and (b.) came down at a time when many other racially controversial monuments were coming down. To the contrary, I think this will require far less original research than wading through the vague (and possible non-existent) justification for the removal of each and every monument. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 20:18, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose "racial unrest" without a geographic qualifier. Lots of places around the world have had instances of racial unrest in 2020-21 unrelated to the treatment of minorities in Western countries, and it is Anglocentric to assume that the reader would automatically know what the article is talking about. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 05:59, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
• Support as the scope includes monuments removed outside US where people care about other, wider issues too. No objection to this being split into two lists, I think one list is better. WP:SYSTEMICBIAS is important. PS. To clarify my stance, I came to this list after following events in places like Barbados, Guadeloupe, Martinique, etc. In those places, the media reports mentioned very little if anything about Floyd, or even US; they were talking about local activists protesting about commemoration of "colonial issues". Additionally, damaging the statues wasn't new - they have been other incidents from prior year, and even some from prior decades or two. While there new acts of vandalism might have been partially inspired by the American wave of protests, those incidents should not be described as a direct part of the "George Floyed protests", IMHO. Therefore we should either split the international events out, or rename this list. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:35, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose - "the" racial unrest? There's only one? I get the disappointment about the Canadian removals being removed. Perhaps one could make a larger broader page with a link to this page and that one, and others if they apply? Removing "George Floyd" from this page feels like a traumatic erasure to me. Kire1975 (talk) 16:39, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
• Support The George Floyd murder was a massive catalyst but only because there was a deep feeling at the time. You could argue that all monument destructions were a result of George Floyd but equally well you could argue that the next incident would have had exactly the same effect. And without the George Floyd murder another incident would have happened. We are living through these times and we can see what is happening. We cannot report anecdotal 'facts' that we see but we can set up the framework surrounding cited facts. But having said that the monuments were going to come down anyway, the George Floyd murder was a massive catalyst and whatever the article is called it should appear prominent in the lead paragraph. OrewaTel (talk) 22:11, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose – I think keeping Floyd's name in it is at the very least useful and healing for the country. "Racial unrest" is much too vague. For subsequent events that don't fit under this heading but would under a broader one, start a separate list page, or just use wikilinks. deisenbe (talk) 17:26, 14 August 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose - There's been plenty of monuments in Australia destroyed or removed by protests, but none due to George Floyd. SHB2000 (talk) 01:21, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

SHB2000 do you mean that you don't want the Australian memorials mentioned? Or do you think that there should be a separate article for them? OrewaTel (talk) 07:15, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Black Lives Matter has been notified of this discussion.  — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 01:58, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Public Art has been notified of this discussion.  — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 01:58, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Lists has been notified of this discussion.  — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 01:58, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose Current name is perfectly concise (cause + effect). This "racial unrest" is overly vague and ambiguous. KidAd • SPEAK 00:25, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Monuments and memorials in Canada removed in 2020–2021

As there was no consensus on moving this list to a title that would indicate a broader scope, I've created a new list with the Canadian monuments that are ineligble for this one. Ham II (talk) 13:57, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

Bust of York

The bust of York in Portland, Oregon, was toppled overnight. I assume this should not be added because this list is specific to George Floyd protests and not racial unrest in general? Discussion welcome, and regardless of list inclusion, article improvements also welcome. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 22:57, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

Similarly, the Nightmare Elk is related to BLM/George Floyd protests, and was removed, but in a different way than most other entries in this list. I'll avoid adding for now, but sharing in case editors wish to discuss or want to help improve the article. Thanks! ---Another Believer _(Talk) 04:56, 26 September 2021 (UTC)