Talk:List of rulers of Thuringia

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Requested move 14 July 2023[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Participants observed that the existing title is more WP:CONCISE and no less accurate than the proposed title, leading to a consensus that the proposed move would not be necessary or beneficial. (closed by non-admin page mover) ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 14:53, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

List of rulers of Thuringia → List of kings, dukes and landgraves of Thuringia – This proposal stems from Option E in the "Rulers of Thuringia" CfR (ongoing since 9 April 2023).

Related CfR: "Category:Rulers of Bamburgh": Renamed to Category:Kings and earls of Bamburgh (20 July)
Related RMs: "List of Milanese consorts" and "List of banesses and queens of Bosnia".

Summary:

Some users found "rulers" to be too broad and vague, while others found "monarchs" to be too narrow and incorrect/misleading.
Moreover, the alternative "Nobility of Thuringia" or "Thuringian nobility" might work for the category, but not the list, which lists the people who had the highest dynastic authority within Thuringia (regardless of whether they were de jure or de facto "sovereign" or de jure subjected to the Frankish kings/emperors or the Holy Roman Emperor).
So, rather than trying to find a specific term that encompasses all people mentioned in this list, @Jc37 and I sort of co-developed the idea of Renaming a "List of rulers of Foo" to "List of [title A]s and [title B]s of Foo". Independently, I renamed List of rulers of Clandeboye to List of kings and lords of Clandeboye, while Jc37 some time after proposed to rename Category:Rulers of Bamburgh to Category:Kings and earls of Bamburgh (which I support). Somewhat relatedly, 2 days ago a renaming led to the RMs above to clarify what we mean by "Milanese consorts" and "consorts of Bosnia", which is also proposed to be resolved with a [title A] + [title B] phrasing, namely List of ladies and duchesses consort of Milan (after earlier work done by @Marcocapelle and me to improve the Milan tree) and List of banesses and queens consort of Bosnia (co-developed by @Surtsicna and me).
If we apply the same Option E logic of Bamburgh and Clandeboye (and Milan and Bosnia) to Thuringia, we rename List of rulers of Thuringia to List of kings, dukes and landgraves of Thuringia. @Marcocapelle already said it "sounds good" to him. Tagging others involved in the CfR for your information: @Furius @Laurel Lodged. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 18:50, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose- The proposed title is far too long and the present title is more than accurate? And I'm going to take this opportunity to say if we were to move this, what's next. Should List of British monarchs be "List of kings and queens of the United Kingdom"? Should List of German monarchs be "List of German emperors, kings of Prussia, etc."? The idea that WP:CONCISE should be ignored. Despite what was listed in the nom, I don't find "monarchs" to narrow or misleading because it simply isn't. The rulers of Thuringia were monarchs. No matter how much or how little power they had, they were monarchs, even if just as figureheads. Because of that, I would consider supporting a move to List of monarchs of Thuringia. estar8806 (talk) ★ 20:01, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ok so an Alt Rename to List of monarchs of Thuringia for you? I could get behind that, but as I said there are other people who don't think "monarchs" should be used to refer to dukes and landgraves. So I think it's better to be WP:PRECISE than WP:CONCISE in this case.

"List of kings, dukes and landgraves of Thuringia" is not excessively long. Compare:

etc. to name some random articles with titles much longer than the one proposed. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:11, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You're right, I prefer the present title but I would support a move to List of monarchs of Thuringia. Looking at Merriam Webster definitions for "monarch"[1] vs. "ruler"[2], I do see how "monarchs" could be too narrow. Nonetheless, either is more concise, and the argument that some articles may not been concise is totally null here because the title here can be concise, as it presently is. I you could propose a more concise title for those articles, I'd be happy to consider supporting an RM for them. estar8806 (talk) ★ 21:38, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Current title is fine. Don't see point of change. Also definitely oppose move to "monarchs of Thuringia". These were not single rulers, but often shared power with each other. Walrasiad (talk) 22:44, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Rename to List of ruling families of Thuringia, to match: Category:Ruling families of Thuringia. I think this addresses the concerns above. I also think the landgraves could possibly be split to a separate page. - jc37 11:54, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I definitely oppose this. The articles in the above category about the families who reigned in Thuringia. The article this RM is on is about the individual rulers of Thuringia, not the families. Naming it "List of ruling families of Thuringia" is far more misleading than either "rulers" or "monarchs" could ever be. estar8806 (talk) ★ 13:55, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This is suggesting "ruling families", not "families of rulers". And as you noted, these are inter-related - which makes them ruling families, I presume? And Ruling_family redirects to Dynasty. And the first sentence of that page states: "A dynasty is a sequence of rulers from the same family,^[1] usually in the context of a monarchical system, but sometimes also appearing in republics. A dynasty may also be referred to as a "house", "family" or "clan", among others."

So what exactly are you arguing against? - jc37 14:26, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm arguing that titling an article "List of X" implies that you are listing whatever "X" is. This article is not listing the ruling families of Thuringia, it's listing the actual rulers.

You cited Category:Ruling families of Thuringia to match with. That category specifically states: This category is for the Royal houses, of which members ruled Thuringia during this long history. This article is not about Royal houses, it is about rulers. We wouldn't change List of British monarchs to List of ruling families of the United Kingdom. estar8806 (talk) ★ 14:34, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, we could... - jc37 14:40, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

But we shouldn't. Walrasiad (talk) 15:55, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. "Rulers" is a fine covering term. Srnec (talk) 16:39, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I really think "Rulers" is fine, largely because it is broad and vague enough to cover the variety of different titles and statuses held by the rulers of Thuringia, but I am not opposed to the proposed change. Furius (talk) 17:00, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Solution in search of a problem. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:01, 19 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Update Yesterday "Category:Rulers of Bamburgh" was Renamed to Category:Kings and earls of Bamburgh. This supports the nomination. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 14:04, 21 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Oxford English Dictionary, 1st ed. "dynasty, n." Oxford University Press (Oxford), 1897.

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

[OED-1] Oxford English Dictionary, 1st ed. "dynasty, n." Oxford University Press (Oxford), 1897.

[1]