Talk:List price/Archives/2015

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Requested move 27 March 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not Moved Mike Cline (talk) 12:49, 4 April 2015 (UTC)


Suggested retail price → Recommended retail price – The current title does not appear to be commonly used. There appear to be two main ways of referring to this type of pricing: "recommended retail price" (RRP) and "manufacturer's suggested retail price" (MSRP). It's generally pretty rare to see "recommended retail price" written out in full with the abbreviation "RRP" being far more common so I have provided both full written and abbreviated names in my google search test:

"recommended retail price": 750,000 "RRP": 403,000,000

"manufacturer's suggested retail price": 7,920,000 "MSRP": 74,900,000

"suggested retail price": 14,000,000 results "SRP": 61,900,000

It appears clear from these results that recommended retail price (due to the abbreviation RRP) is significantly the most used term. Ebonelm (talk) 21:02, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

  • Support: nominator, per WP:COMMONNAME, RRP is easily the most popular term used with over 325 million more results than next most used term. Ebonelm (talk) 21:02, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Clearly MSRP is the dominant term, not RRP. -- 65.94.43.89 (talk) 03:51, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
It doesn't make any sense to list WP:ENGVAR as a reason to oppose, the policy states that all varieties of English are equally valid. I have never seen MSRP but see RRP all the time, which is the exact same argument you make, in fact your argument if anything, is in violation of WP:ENGVAR by suggesting that just because you personally haven't heard of a term then it must be wrong.
What this discussion needs to find out is which phraseology is actually the most widely used, I think this is going to be RRP. However, I should note that I don't necessarily have an opposition to a move to MSRP my main concern is that the current title is just a made-up term and think that either RRP or MSRP is a better choice. Equally as notable is that MSRP (disambiguation) also has many meanings, as is also the case with SRP.
The vast majority of pages containing RRP will be retail websites. RRP in reference to pricing is unlikely to have to be explained when shorted (e.g. a website will list a price as RRP £99.99 without first having to explain that RRP stands for recommended retail price) whereas I imagine that with the other meanings it would be important to first explain the term, especially as most of the other meanings are medical.
Your decision to deliberately not conduct a search for "RRP" but list all the other terms suggests that you are trying to mislead this discussion and that you excluded it because it gave you a result that you find uncomfortably high. Sure not every result out of 403 million for RRP will be for pricing but even if only half of them were it would still make it the popular term with double the hits compared to the other searches. Ebonelm (talk) 11:48, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
I did search for RRP, it's right there, it's 'half the prominence of MSRP (44M vs 74M). Just look at the list. RRP is not the most common name with bare search results. And if you examine that RRP link, you'll find that RRP isn't even the use listed in most of the top 100 results, it's other things called RRP. MSRP however is mostly for MSRP and not for other things called MSRP. most of the world does not use "£", even Europe doesn't use it, it uses Euros. Most of the world will quote prices in USDollars. RRP is never used in my area, so it's only your local results, per WP:ENGVAR. -- 65.94.43.89 (talk) 08:46, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
One, your google search for RRP does not include quotation marks which makes it invalid. Two, I don't see how the use of the pound, euro, or dollar is relevant at all to this discussion, the use of the currency is not pertinent. RRP is also used in: Australia (see here), in New Zealand (see here) and Ireland (see here) a country which also uses euro! Ebonelm (talk) 09:38, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

What this RM needs is some more reference
Turning to scholar we'd find:

Arguably scholar may not be the best place to look for common name on retail but still think that the results may suggest oppose. GregKaye 06:56, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

I don't quite understand why you have filtered results to require the inclusion of distributor or wholesaler when nearly all retail businesses use RRP/MSRP so limiting a search to include only a very small segment seems to be obscuring most of the picture. Furthermore, as you yourself stated, scholar probably isn't the right place to be establishing usage in this particular case. (talk) 11:48, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
Ebonelm The main reason is that there are a number of uses of RRP and SRP. Perhaps a word starting "manufactur..." might have alternatively used. GregKaye 19:07, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
Okay well that seems reasonable enough, either way however I don't think it is the best way to determine usage. RRP/MSRP is likely to appear mainly on retail websites and so the academic debates around this topic is only going to be a minute part of common usage. This is why I think that the standard google search that I provided with my proposal is going to be far more useful. Both RRP and MSRP have other uses but certainly in the case of RRP it will be the primary one. On a side note having had a brief flick through the results for SRP none of them appear to be related to retail but to science and engineering. SRP is not actually a term that appears to be used for this type of pricing which is why I made the proposal in the first place (though I did also do a search for SRP in my google search results this was mainly just to demonstrate that I wasn't trying to hide anything) and which is why even if you don't think the title should be RRP we should change the title to MSRP. There is also the issue that all pages which contain MSRP will naturally include SRP and it is the same combination of letters which will always give SRP an inflated number of hits. Ebonelm (talk) 20:39, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
Red Slash, Please excuse some friendly pedantry but nothing or little in the guidelines dictates anything. Humorously WP:CONSISE makes use of the phenomenally ambiguous word familiar. Should it apply a need for a presentation of a useful content must precede a choice of title. GregKaye 19:16, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
But WP:RETAIN is part of WP:ENGVAR. Suggested retail price is not a variety of English, as far as I can tell it is not used anywhere as a proper term. The two variations which are proper terms are manufacturer's suggested retail price which is abbreviated as MSRP and recommended retail price which is abbreviated as RRP. WP:RETAIN cannot apply to an article that has not got a variety of English to retain. As a variety has not yet been established I am proposing recommended retail price as the variety I think is most commonly used. If RRP is rejected then I will open another discussion to move to MSRP because the current title is not used as a proper term anywhere (unless somebody can provide evidence to the contrary). However I think that because RRP is more the widely used it would be the better title to move to, it also has the advantage over MSRP of being more WP:CONCISE. Ebonelm (talk) 16:39, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
The reason why you think that is because RRP matches your variety of English, I would presume. And if you want sources, GregKaye's sources already show that RRP is significantly less popular than SRP. Red Slash 20:08, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
No I think RRP is the more used term because of the evidence that I provided in my proposal, which shows that RRP gets 403 million hits compared to less than 75 million for MSRP. Even taking into account the potential other uses of RRP the majority of the reference to RRP will be for recommended retail price, the same issue exists for MSRP as well. GregKaye has himself admitted that using scholar might not be the ideal method of determining usage (particularly considering his decision to only include hits which also container distributer or wholesaler when many other words could be associated with RRP/MSRP). As scholar only searches academic articles in this particular case it does not establish usage well as nearly all uses of RRP/MSRP will be on retail sites not in academic articles. While I'm not going to pretend that I'm not pleased that RRP appears to be the most common used term as I have stated in two other posts previously if this proposal fails I will be making a second proposal that this page be moved to MSRP. The current title is not a proper term used in any variety of English and either RRP or MSRP would be more suitable than the current title. If you actually look at the results that are provided for SRP using GregKaye's scholar search you will see that none of them are related to pricing but are instead irrelvant pages concerning science and engineering and therefore they do not demonstrate popularity at all and further consildates my point that SRP is not a proper term used for pricing. Ebonelm (talk) 20:48, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
Raw hits on Google are not usually accurate and are not generally taken into account. If you check ngrams, "suggested retail price" absolutely annihilates "recommended retail price". It's not even close. The common name by far is the current one. (I note that in British English alone, RRP pulls into a tie with SRP. This is where WP:RETAIN also comes into play.) Red Slash 04:24, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
Ngram results are equally as irrelevant in this case as scholar results are, most uses of RRP/MSRP aren't going to be in academic articles and books. Furthermore, ngram results don't work for 'manufacturer's suggested retail price' which (due to the apostrophe) which means we can't do a full fair comparison. Finally, as I have stated elsewhere to search for 'suggested retail price' will automatically include all cases of MSRP because the first three words are the same giving it an inflated result and one that does not describe usage. WP:RETAIN is not applicable unless you can demonstrate that 'suggested retail price' is a proper term used somewhere. To demonstrate I will provide a list of countries which I have found to use RRP/MSRP. RRP is used in: the United Kingdom (see here), Australia (see here), in New Zealand (see here) and Ireland (see here). MSRP is used in: the United States (see here and Canada (see here). As I have clearly demonstrated SRP is not a term used in any of these countries and therefore WP:RETAIN cannot be applicable as the current article name is not used anywhere. Ebonelm (talk) 09:38, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
Boomshakalaka. Your wish is my command. It seems that as uncommon as it may be to use SRP, it's still far more common. There's your full fair comparison between the current title v RRP. If you want to suggest a move to MSRP (or hey, even MSRP itself), we'll have to resort to other avenues of searching, perhaps, but for right now, RRP seems to be less common on a global scale. Red Slash 21:10, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
Red Slash, first let me just say that putting "the" in front of the search terms to remove searches for MSRP was a really smart idea. However, that being said, you have still only answered half of my point which is that google books is only going to show a very incomplete picture in this case because of the nature of the usage of RRP/MSRP which: one, is that the major usage is for pricing on price labels etc... which won't show up in google book search; and two, that more often than not the phrase won't be written out in full but instead as the abbreviation RRP/MSRP. To demonstrate this I have added the variables 'RRP' and 'MSRP' to your ngram here. This demonstrates that both RRP and MSRP are significantly more used than the phrases 'the suggested retail price' and 'the recommended retail price'. While I am sure the objection will be raised that RRP and MSRP have multiple meanings the level of difference is enough that I think this can be discounted. I have not included SRP in this search because there is no evidence that it is used as an abbreviation for pricing. The figures demonstrated in my ngram shows a picture which is relatively in line with my initial regular google search. Ebonelm (talk) 21:57, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
Ebonelm, thank you! I think you're going to get some unavoidable conflation between RRP meaning recommended retail price and RRP meaning other things. To illustrate, I added SRP. We both agree that it's uncommon (at best) to use SRP for the suggested retail price, but RRP is not exclusively used for it.
I don't think we'll get past this without addressing your raw Google hits, and why those numbers are so often discounted. Look here at my U.S. Bing hits. "suggested retail price, 3.55 million hits. But "recommended retail price" only nets you 869K hits. I think the location you search from is important, and in any case, the hit numbers are only a very broad estimate of how many hits there truly are in the system. Red Slash 00:00, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
Strongly oppose It's an ENGVAR issue thru and thru. RRP is used in the uk while Suggested retail price is used in the US. Why change it? To use an arguement that comes along all the time when wanting to change things to british english from American English, isn't it good for others (in this case Commonwealth speakers) to learn new terms, and expand their literacy?~~ip 90.201.191.33 (talk) 08:59, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 1 May 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. Number 57 20:01, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Suggested retail price → List price – Previously I proposed a different move of this page to 'recommended retail price'; this was rejected by the citation of WP:RETAIN. This proposal is based on the argument of WP:ENGVAR: WP:COMMONALITY which states that "words that are common to all varieties of English" should be favoured over regional terms. Suggested retail price is only used in the United States, while a variety of other terms are used across other English speaking countries. List price however is a term used generically across all English speaking countries. A move to 'list price' therefore would be a neutral term, which is used in all varieties of English including the United States and the United Kingdom. List price is also significantly the WP:COMMONNAME, as demonstrated by this ngram, and also satisfies WP:CONCISE. --Relisted. George Ho (talk) 09:51, 8 May 2015 (UTC) Ebonelm (talk) 21:38, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

@Calidum WP:TITLEVAR states that: "very occasionally, a less common but non-nation-specific term is selected to avoid having to choose between national varieties: for example, soft drink was selected to avoid the choice between UK fizzy drink, U.S. soda, U.S. and Canadian pop" - therefore WP:TITLEVAR actually supports the move to list price as a non-nation-specific term. In this particular case a move to list price would actually be even more beneficial as it isn't even a less common term (as demonstrated in the ngram above). Ebonelm (talk) 10:43, 2 May 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment the nominator is wrong, suggested retail price is not only used in the United States. Canada, for instance, is not part of the United States. no opinion on moving it to "list price" -- 65.94.43.89 (talk) 04:28, 2 May 2015 (UTC)
  • Tentative support both per the nomination and WP:CONCISE. My only hesitation would be if "list price" actually means something slightly different, but list price has redirected here for literally nine years, so... Red Slash 17:15, 2 May 2015 (UTC)
  • Support. "List price" should be a fair WP:COMMONALITY solution. As far as I can tell it means the same thing as MSRP in the US, so if it's common elsewhere in the Anglosphere it should be a good solution.--Cúchullain t/c 13:44, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
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