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a comics series created by Harvey Kurtzman and Will Elder: is "creator" used here in the sense of "comics creator"? My understanding was that Kurtzman originated the series and Elder was his main partner (correct me if I'm wrong).
No, you are correct. I used it this way as this is exactly how the billing appears in the book cover, its facing page, and (last but not least) on the splash panel of every comic. It makes it clear who consistently did almost all of the work. So I believe it's okay, then?
No, because it's ambiguous—it can be read that Elder was co-originator of the strip. Curly Turkey¡gobble! 23:23, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
I hate when you and I are at odds; thankfully it doesn't happen very often and you know how much I respect you; but I'm sorry, every single time this comic was published the comic was credited to both men in this way. The Infobox has it the way you want it (and I like it that way too). Prhartcom (talk) 00:31, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
John Stanley was credited for every Little Lulu story from 1945 to 1959, but he didn't originate it---Marge Buell did. I think it'd be better to rewrite it as something like "written by Harvey Kurtzman and illustrated by Will Elder", which is factual and unambiguous. Curly Turkey¡gobble! 01:12, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
The lead should be expanded a bit---without getting too wordy I'd mention:
Kurtzman's earlier relations with Hefner
Mad and Goodman Beaver
The method of creation (or at least mention in passing it was elaborate)
Elder's chickenfat
Hefner's interference
Good idea; I will do so promptly. I have never heard the term "chickenfat" and don't remember it from the sources; what do you mean? Remember, it's not "interference"; that's a matter of opinion; Hefner was doing his job and no doubt knew better than Kurtzman what the readers wanted; we just need to type out that Hefner did what he did (I know you were just using shorthand; that's fine).
You'll come across "chicken fat" in Buhle & Kitchen's book. "Interference" would of course be an inappropriate word to use, but the situation should be described—all his career Kurtzman was looking for artistic freedom, and Hefner was increasingly demanding with changes to the strip. Robert Crumb always griped about what Hefner "did to" his hero, and many critics consider Annie to have compromised Kurtzman's vision because of this—that Kurtzman and critics felt that way should be mentioned. Curly Turkey¡gobble! 23:23, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
It's mentioned, covered heavily I feel, in the Reception section. I read that book and never came across the term. Since you didn't tell me, I checked the Will Elder article and found it there (the article gives some other source). You're talking about the visual gags Elder worked into the holes in Kurtzman's layouts. The book you mention uses the term "eye pops". Really? I didn't think that was lede material. It's covered in the article body. I will have the completed lede out there by tonight. Prhartcom (talk) 00:31, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
Well, some detail about Elder's style should be mentioned. I can't access it, but Google Books suggests there's mention of the term "chicken fat" in the second Dark Horse book. Curly Turkey¡gobble! 01:12, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
I still need to expand the lede. I will do so in my next session. At that point I believe all of these comments are addressed and my work for the time being will be done. Prhartcom (talk) 17:22, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
I wonder if there's a way to indicate in the infobox that Elder was the primary illustrator
There isn't; this particular Infobox template is pathetic (it inappropriately assumes multiple authors, publishers, and genres (displaying these labels with an "(s)") but a single illustrator, it forces the user to use [[File:]] and to supply an image size (otherwise it expands to the width of the image), it should not have "color" parameters, and it should have an alt parameter). Someday I may fix it myself.
knew he was seeing extraordinary work: this kind of wording won't fly---something less POV like "was impressed by what he saw". As it's worded it implies the work was objectively extraordinary, and Hefner happened to know it.
Fixed; point taken; I see now you are correct. The source explicitly communicates that Hef knew the work was extraordinary, which is why I typed such a phrase. I understand now, however, that my mind must edit out such editorializing I read in sources that is allowed by their editors but not by ours. As you say, there is still a way to neutrally type such a thing if it is truly supported; I have now done so.
Hefner also hired cartoonists: can you double-check if Hefner actually hired them, or whether they worked freelance?
It says "hired", surprisingly, and elsewhere says they worked at the Chicago offices.
who saw the inherent genius in Kurtzman's work: same thing with POV
Fixed; I now have "also impressed" (it is backed up by the source).
had to be justified: this should be elaborated
Fixed; thankfully, the source provided elaboration.
for artwork he drew himself: this as well
The source says exactly this with no elaboration, but does add that he effectively abandoned his solo efforts, which is true. I want the paragraph to end with a "chord" as it currently does (this is something I attempt to do in my writing). I could add the phrase "and abandoned his solo efforts", do you think? Here's another idea: "As with most things Kurtzman attempted," said Kitchen and Buhle in 2009, "he had great vision, but was too often out of step with his time."(Kitchen & Buhle 2009 p.160)
I can understand, but this communicates things to those in-the-know that will go over the heads of those who aren't—that Kurtzman's artwork was not to everyone's tastes. He had the same concerns with his Christmas Carol adaptation, where he had a sample page sone up by Jack Davis in case publishers were put off by his own style. I'll see if I can find a source to expand this—Kitchen and Buhle can assume their readers know something about Kurtzman and his artwork, but Wikipedia editors cannot. Curly Turkey¡gobble! 23:23, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
collaborator Will Elder: their relationship should be elaborated---this makes it sounds like they had always been a pair.
Fixed; they were, they had known each other since high school (according to the sources), but I'd rather not use the space to say that; I changed it to "friend and collaborator".
Help! furthered the adventures of Goodman Beaver: not really---only four of these stories appeared in Help!
What, but the source says that it did. I don't have Help! as you do, but after the source introduces it, it says, "It's highlight was a series of five new Goodman Beaver adventures" and "In the new incarnation, Goodman [did this and that]". (Kitchen 2000 p.208) The article needs to stay on the topic of Goodman Beaver if possible; we're about to do the big reveal.
Hefner especially found amusing "Goodman Goes Playboy": is "especially" supported by the sources?
Fixed; no it isn't.
suggested to Elder an "outlineless" style, but expressed a preference for a fully India inked outlined style with flat comic book color behind it: this seems contradictory. Was this meant to say that Elder and Kurtzman had different preferences?
We're trying to say (as the source does) that, at first, Kurtzman thought of the style with no outline (it gives a Sgt. Bilco Camel cigarette take off in Trump as an example) but then Kurtzman said out loud that he wanted the opposite (so Elder tried drawing Annie in ink and the drawing is reproduced for us!). Hefner didn't choose the inked style but chose the style Kurtzman thought of initially. I suppose this didn't come through in the article. If you think it needs it, can you offer an edit that improves the clarity?
in the comic strip format, but multiple pages in length: I'm not sure this would be a "but"; short multipage comics (such as Crumb's) are normally called "strips".
Fixed; I see what you're saying; the "but" wasn't backed up by the sources anyway; good catch.
I think have now fixed all cases of WP:EDITORIALIZING in the article and have assimilated that advice into my brain; thanks for the suggestion and thanks especially for the valuable feedback. Please keep it coming. Question: By any chance would you like for me to nominate the article for GA before you continue? Prhartcom (talk) 18:19, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
Well, "stability" is one requirement for GA, so the article should be settled before then. GANs often take months to find a reviewer, though, so it might not hurt if you went ahead, but don't take that as an endorsement. Curly Turkey¡gobble! 01:12, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for your heartless honesty. Prhartcom (talk) 11:38, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
P.S. Uh oh. The domain for toonopedia.com expired yesterday and the website is permanently down today. Prhartcom (talk) 18:28, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
I think we'll be able to find anything important enough that was in there elsewhere. I wonder what'll happen to the info, though—surely Markstein didn't want it to vanish. Curly Turkey¡gobble! 23:23, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
I hope it comes back soon; I quote heavily from it here. I sent an email earlier today to the email address provided by the domain. Let me know what you think of my question about five lines up. Prhartcom (talk) 00:31, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
There's a reason to prefer paper sources to online ones---that book on your shelf'll never expire. Curly Turkey¡gobble! 01:12, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
The website is back. Prhartcom (talk) 01:35, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
For a visually-oriented article I'd sure like to see more images. Here's a crappy (but free) photo of Hefner in 1979 (the only one on Commons contemporary with the strip), and "Goodman Goes Playboy" is in the public domain. The Little Orphan Annie logo is probably PD as well under US copyright law—as it's mentioned in the body it might make a good addition. Curly Turkey¡gobble! 01:20, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
We could run the Hefner image. I checked and the Little Orphan Annie logo isn't public domain until 2038. I notice that it does appear in its Wikipedia article (under fair use); we could consider running the Annie logo here under fair use and the readers could click and compare. We could perhaps run one small PD Goodman Beaver image, but seeing his face here wouldn't accomplish very much and his image is readily available on his article also. What we need is more images from Annie (or of Kurtzman). But you know how nigh impossible that is with Wikipedia policy (otherwise I would have added more to the Tintin articles by now). I believe we could get away with maybe only one more free use Annie image—an un-retouched panel of a nude Annie, preferably with logo above, to accompany the respectable Annie? Let me look into it. Prhartcom (talk) 19:01, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
LIttle Orphan Annie itself will be under copyright for that long, but logos are not copyrightable in the US if they are made up only of typefaces or simple geometric shapes. That applies to both the Orphan Annie and Annie Fanny logos, which are no more than stylized typeface and thus don't meet the threshold of originality. Check out WP:LOGO. Curly Turkey¡gobble! 21:48, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
That's good to know, thanks. Prhartcom (talk) 01:35, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
Fixed; I have added more images. I think we are at the limit. I was not able to include an image of the logo but I'm glad it is in the Infobox image. Prhartcom (talk) 17:22, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
I'll have to track down a reference, but apparently Kurtzman had Robert Crumb try to help out once in th 1960s---though things didn't turn out (I'm not sure if his work ended up in print or not). Curly Turkey¡gobble! 08:06, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
I'm wondering how to handle this: you've got a source from Buhle, another from Kitchen, and one from both, so you introduce an evaluation from Buhle, then one from Kitchen, then "continue Kitchen and Buhle". Most readers will not be paying attention to the sources, so this can come off as confusing. Curly Turkey¡gobble! 21:21, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
Fixed. Prhartcom (talk) 17:22, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
"Salinger Fiengold": Is that "Fiengold" or "Feingold"? Curly Turkey¡gobble! 21:21, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
I double-checked, and I have it spelled correctly ("Fiengold"). Prhartcom (talk) 19:01, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for completing your copy edit and providing this feedback; this is very valuable. I have a few more sources to add and will look into these suggestions. Thanks again. Prhartcom (talk) 19:01, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
Photo
Does a photo of Denis Kitchen really "increase the reader's understanding of the subject" of Little Annie Fanny? I think the picture needs to be removed. 24.149.45.52 (talk) 02:41, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
I don't care either way, but I should point out that Kitchen is probably the most prominent authority on Kurtzman's works—he's reprinted many of them, continues to edit new reprints, and has co-authored what is so far the most extensive biography on the man. Curly Turkey¡gobble! 03:35, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
1. The Creation section seems to be very tangential to the topic at hand. It reads more like an article on the career of Harvey Kurtzman than it does the history of this work. While the two are definitely linked, I think this section could be pared down a bit.
Hmm ... I see little information that could really be dropped, but I think the prose could be tightened if the first paragraph were rewritten. I'll take a stab at it—ping me if I forget. Curly Turkey¡gobble! 04:00, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
You got at least seven days so don't feel too rushed. I agree, I think the main problem is that first paragraph needs to be tightened up a bit. Maybe think about a {{See also}} or {{Main}} that links to Harvey Kurtzman as a lot of the information is important to the life of Kurtzman but a little more trivial to Little Annie Fanny. Wugapodes (talk) 05:20, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Wugapodes, thank-you very much for reviewing the article! I have been waiting a while for this moment. By now I assume you have read my comments in the section you started at Curly Turkey's talk page.
I see your point, there is a lot of material there, although I already tried to keep the pace moving as quickly as possible. It is humorous that you are essentially saying too much research was undertaken as opposed to not enough. I'm afraid I essentially disagree with your observation as I believe it is important that we establish Annie's roots in Goodman Beaver, Kurtzman's desperation, and especially his working relationship with Hefner that lead to Little Annie Fannie. I like the idea of a See also template here but I don't think it would work in practice as there is no "History of Harvey Kurtzman" article; the template would just say "See Harvey Kurtzman" and his name is already linked. I have managed to trim a little bit more and I hope you agree to accommodate the result. Prhartcom (talk) 17:54, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
It is weird to be saying that there's too much information. The revision is definitely better, and after a few more readthroughs and your comments, I realized my initial impression was a little harsh. I left it unstruck as I think that some thought should still be given to maybe incorporating more of that into either Kurtzman's article or perhaps its own article if Goodman Beaver is independently notable. None of that needs to be done or decided immediately, but it's definitely something that should be given thought, especially if that section starts to grow. Wugapodes (talk) 20:14, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Oh, Goodman Beaver is an article that discusses this and the Harvey Kurtzman article does go into more detail (Curly Turkey wrote both of those). I'm so glad you feel better about this section. Prhartcom (talk) 21:32, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
I see a couple of issues: was Hefner "forced" to fire anyone? According to the Fantagraphics Humbug, Trump sold well, and Hefner may have had other reasons to fold the magazine. Also, I don't think it's necessary to list all the cartoonists Kurtzman took with him to Trump, aside form Elder, obviously. I can see some other details that should be included: Humbug was edited out of the Playboy offices, which Hefner provided to make up for canceling Trump. I'm going to take a stab at this paragraph and post what I come up with here. Curly Turkey¡gobble! 23:10, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Okay, here's my first crack at it:
Little Annie Fanny began as a male character. Harvey Kurtzman founded the satirical Mad in 1952. An early fan was Hugh Hefner, a one-time cartoonist who founded the men's magazine Playboy in 1953. He offered Kurtzman a place in the Hefner empire, which Kurtzman took after leaving Mad in 1956 over an ownership dispute. He took most of the Mad artists with him, including frequent collaborator Will Elder, and began adult-oriented humor magazine Trump. Though it sold well, Hefner ran into financial problems in 1957 and shuttered the magazine afer only two issues. Hefner provided office space for the artists from which they self-published another satire magazine, Humbug, in 1957–58. It failed to find an audience, and a dejected Kurtzman worked on a variety of projects over the next years. In the book Harvey Kurtzman's Jungle Book (1959) he introduced the innocent and idealistic Goodman Beaver, a character who continued to appear—with artwork by Elder—in Help!, another satirical magazine Kurtzman founded in 1960.
Kurtzman had continued to correspond with Hefner and with Playboy executive editor Ray Russell, who was interested in Kurtzman's suggestion of a comic strip that would appeal to Playboy's audience. Single-panel cartoons were an established part of Playboy, but a comic strip was not yet considered respectable and had to be justified. Kurtzman submitted some Goodman Beaver strips and was surprised to receive a favorable response from Hefner, who liked the "fresh and eager" character, and enjoyed "Goodman Goes Playboy", which depicted a boisterous romp in the Playboy mansion. Hefner nevertheless insisted that the material was not right for Playboy, but aked for an explanation of the character and suggested, "Maybe there is a way of launching a similar series ... that can somehow be related to Playboy". Kurtzman replied, "Goodman Beaver's reason for being is ... a character who could be foolish and at the same time wise ... naive yet moral. He innocently partakes of the bad while espousing the good. That way, I can simultaneously treat foibles and ideals. He's a lovable, good-natured, philosophical idiot. He's restless. He wanders and can show up anywhere. He's young and can get involved in sexy situations. (That last sentence was for you.)" A week later, Kurtzman wrote Hefner again: "What would you think of a girl character ... whom I could apply to my kind of situations?" After six weeks, Hefner replied: "I think your notion of doing a Goodman Beaver strip of two, three, or four pages, but using a sexy girl ... is a bull's eye. We can run it every issue."
I guess it's a bit of a radical change, but not as far as I'd like to go (I'm not a fan of the quote-heavy style). It's a bit shorter, yet contains some details that I think are significant (like the Humbug guys get Playboy office space, which emphasizes the contnuing relationship between Hefner and Kurtzman). By the way, Prhartcom, I think I predicted to you that Kitchen was going to reprint Annie Fannie as part of his Dark Horse Kurtzman series. He hasn't said he wouldn't, but it looks like what's next on the plate is even better: he's going to bring Trump back in print for the first time since 1957. I don't see preorders yet, but the quote is that he is "actually starting Trump shortly for Dark Horse". Curly Turkey¡gobble! 23:43, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
I really like that wording. Prhartcom how do you feel about it?Wugapodes (talk) 00:54, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
I am working on this offline and will be ready soon. Prhartcom (talk) 05:50, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Wugapodes, I have returned from some RL and am working on this offline again. I also like much of what Curly Turkey has written as well. I am inventorying what was added and what was deleted, and I am adding back a little bit of what was deleted. We need to provide reliable sources, page numbers, etc. to any fact that was added, Curly Turkey, can you provide this? I have returned to working on this offline Wugapodes, and I do not expect to delay you for very much longer; thanks for your patience. Prhartcom (talk) 00:25, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
Of course—there's nothing in there that's not already sourced in one of the Kurtzman-related articles (most of it's already in this one). The stuff about Hefner giving them office space is in Benson & Groth, p. x, the self-financed bit Benson & Groth, p. viii. Just ask me for anything else you don't see the source for and I'll slap it in for you.
(The Fantagraphics Humbug set is beautiful, by the way, if you wanted to get your hands on it—and there's a WP article that still needs a lot of work). Curly Turkey¡gobble! 01:16, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
Wugapodes, I have completed editing this section. Curly Turkey, you were right about going easy on the quote-heavy style. This section now reads quicker, the information flows easier. I had to take a break to take care of business in RL but also to allow the new writing that was not my own to grow on me. I now see how this edit improved the article and I am grateful for the assistance of both of you. Prhartcom (talk) 21:13, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
BTW Curly Turkey, that is exciting news about the upcoming republishing of Trump. I will definitely buy a copy. Keep me in the loop as you hear more. I found Humbug on Amazon, I didn't know it was available, and even used is pretty expensive, unfortunately. Prhartcom (talk) 21:23, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
I think that $100 version on Amazon is actually the signed and numbered version—I don't know why the regular version isn't showing up in a search, because accoerding to Fantagraphics, it's still in print. Keep in mind, it's a two-book hardcover set in a slipcase, so the suggested retail price of $60 isn't that bad—somehow I managed to snag a copy a few years ago (still in the shrink wrap!) for $20. You should keep an eye peeled—Fantagraphics really knows how to put together an archival collection. Curly Turkey¡gobble! 23:01, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
... or, rather, "in stock", which I suppose isn't the same thing as "in print". Hmmm ... I guess I just got lucky! Curly Turkey¡gobble! 23:07, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
2. When it came time to name the feature, Kurtzman's suggestions included The Perils of Zelda, The Perils of Irma, and Little Mary Mixup, until finally Little Annie Fanny, the title (and logo) a take on Harold Gray's Little Orphan Annie. Feels awkwardly worded. Is there a better way to phrase it?
I've broken it up and tweaked the wording. Curly Turkey¡gobble! 04:00, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
3. Her character remains sexually innocent, however, oblivious to the worldliness around her. She is the morally upstanding Goodman Beaver character who came before her, a modern Candide, remaining above the story's corruptions and temptations. Unlike Goodman, however, Annie is never shocked or offended; she remains blithe. There are two problems with these sentences that I have:
A. It uses "however" in two sentences in a row that makes it sound awkward.
B. I'm not sure if the Candide reference is original research or not as it isn't directly cited.
The wording is unencyclopaedic, but the Candide influence is in multiple sources. I've tweaked the wording. Curly Turkey¡gobble! 04:00, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
4. The Reception section needs to be modified to comply with WP:Inline citation and criterion 2b. The source should be cited immediately after a direct quotation so that it is clear where the quotation comes from.
There are those who vigorously dispute that interpretation of the MoS (it's not explicit); I'm an adherent to that interpretation, though, so I've gone ahead and vandalized the article with "redundant" citations. If Prhartcom doesn't like it, we'll just have to editwar over it. Curly Turkey¡gobble! 04:00, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
True, but for high level articles like GA and FA, I feel the interpretation is warranted. Wugapodes (talk) 05:20, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
It's at FAC that I've seen it challenged. Anyways, it's done. Curly Turkey¡gobble! 05:44, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Thank-you for the observation; this is fine with me. I removed two of the new redundant citations as the quotes they cite are actually two quotes from the same person that are adjacent to each other, therefore both can be acknowledged with one reference. Prhartcom (talk) 17:54, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
5. Comics expert Don Markstein professes the comic "reached a high point seldom achieved by cartoon art." I'm wary of the term "Comics expert" especially since the sentence isn't cited. Does any source call him such? If so it should be cited, if not it should be removed.
Perhaps something like "comics historian" would be better. I'll wait for Prhartcom's opinion. Curly Turkey¡gobble! 04:00, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Here I am only identifying the professions of the source authors as I introduce their names to the reader, such as comics commentator and comics editor, but I can see that comics "expert" could be problematic (although I have used that term in an FA). Markstein was indisputably an expert, but I like Curly Turkey's more accurate comics "historian" better and have made this change. No, I have no source that identifies him as either. Prhartcom (talk) 17:54, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
I think historian is better, as that's rather apparent from his body of work. Also that similar language has been used in an FA is telling that it may not be too much of a problem in the future. You may still think about looking at Don Markstein's Toonopedia for sources that call him a historian or expert just in case it does become a point of contention. But I'm fine with the wording as it stands now. Wugapodes (talk) 20:14, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Thanks, Curly Turkey. Wugapodes, I put together this reference, but then stopped short of adding it to the article. I just don't think it is important to add another book to the bibliography just to prove Markstein's profession. That would almost be like another article saying, "And actor[5] Tom Hanks said ..." or "Chancellor[5] Angela Merkel remarked ...". It's good to know we got it right calling him as a historian; let's just leave it at that.
6. Art agent and publisher Denis Kitchen[...]. Underground cartoonist Robert Crumb, whose career Kurtzman helped launch, scorned both Playboy and Annie. The focus of ire of these devotees, continues Kitchen, is on Kurtzman's employer Hefner... The second sentence breaks up the continuity of the first and third, and doesn't seem to add much where it is, especially since the third goes back to what the first sentence was talking about. I recommend moving the second sentence elsewhere so that the Denis Kitchen quote and "Kitchen continues" are adjacent.
I'll take a stab at rewriting it—Crumb has been particularly vocal on this, so I think it would be a mistake to drop his voice. Curly Turkey¡gobble! 05:44, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
This is an excellent observation; the Crumb sentence is indeed in the wrong place and the Kitchen sentences do need to be adjacent. I have moved the Crumb sentence immediately after the earlier Spiegelman sentence. Prhartcom (talk) 17:54, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
7. I'm not quite sure that the photo of Denis Kitchen is in line with WP:IMAGE RELEVANCE. He's not the subject of the article, or the author of the subject. I can understand it as he handles the author's estate, and that the section discusses him. I guess the question is What information does the image convey that would be lost without the image? I'm not entirely convinced there is any, but I'd be willing to hear arguments for inclusion if anyone has them.
The article wouldn't suffer without it, but it is rather sparsely illustrated. It would be much better if we had free images of Kurtzman and Elder. But having the image of Kitchen (who has played a prominet role in Kurtzman's legacy) is better than the expanse of whitespace that would be the option. I've uprighted the image to make it a little less in-your-face, though. Curly Turkey¡gobble! 04:00, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
I moved your comment down here because this seems to be the comment you were addressing (hope you don't mind). Anyway, I'm still not 100% on keeping it in, though I do agree an expanse of white space is worse than having a tangential image. Perhaps a {{quote box}} would be useful in breaking up the white space? The image mostly serves as a means for conveying the quote in its caption, so this way we get the best of everything, I feel. Give it a thought. Wugapodes (talk) 05:20, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Well, I think that's a call Prhartcom should make. Curly Turkey¡gobble! 05:44, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
I struggled to illustrate this article. Admittedly, a random reader made your same observation on the article's Talk page (or perhaps this is where you got the idea?) I truly do understand and would like to agree with this observation, but please consider: Other articles on Wikipedia have illustrated the Critical reception section with the image of a critic (i.e. here). I could argue that an image of anything else would not be appropriate. This particular person is the most important Annie Fanny critic. These images do exist, if this is helpful. I wish I could find a free image of someone reading or discussing Annie Fanny but I have looked and can find none. As for the quote box idea, sure, I have used that before, I could completely give up and do that (I don't see how it is the "the best of everything"), only if you very much insist. Prhartcom (talk) 17:54, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Dennis Kitchen at NY Comic ConHmm, I'm still not entirely sure. If we are going to keep a photo here, I think a different photo would be better. Looking at Tintin in Tibet which you linked, the critic has a microphone and the photo contributes to the idea of critique and reception. I think if the photo at right were used, it would be better. The current photo looks like a dust jacket photo, and makes me think of him as the author. The photo linked makes him seem much more like a respected critic and thus contributes more to the article. What are your thoughts? Wugapodes (talk) 20:14, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
I see what you mean; I dislike the "dust jacket author" look this image has and I like the "respected critic with microphone" look. (But note how the Goodman Beaver article has an image in its Reception section that is rather a mixture of both.) Curly Turkey, do you think the image to the right would look okay in this article? Prhartcom (talk) 21:32, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
I agree, I think it would be fine. Wugapodes (talk) 00:54, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Good, let's go with this one then. Prhartcom (talk) 05:50, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
I have made this change. Prhartcom (talk) 21:16, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
(optional)The article uses "women's lib" to refer to the Feminist movement. Is this because that is how it is referenced in the comic or source? If not I feel it may be better to change it to "women's liberation" or simply "Feminist Movement" so readers can understand it without needing to click the wikilink.
"Women's lib" is too informal, but I've stuck with "women's liberation", as that's the term associated with the age (it wasn't referring to suffragettes, say). Curly Turkey¡gobble! 04:00, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
This is fine. FYI, "women's lib" is the term used by the source, and I even remember it was the term widely used to refer to this topic at the time, but I see this is never mentioned in the women's liberation article and agree that it is certainly informal (in the same way that the term "Obamacare" is informal but is the term widely used for that topic). Prhartcom (talk) 17:54, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
(Optional)You will probably want to be consistent with your quotation style, sometimes the punctuation goes inside the quotation mark, other times it is outside. I'm not partial to either one, but it should be consistent.
I fixed the LQ violations I could find. Curly Turkey¡gobble! 04:00, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
I am a huge fan of consistency. However, I believe logical quotation, which we use here on Wikipedia, does not demand consistency, but states, "include within quotation marks only those punctuation marks that appeared in the original quoted material, but otherwise to place punctuation outside the closing quotation marks."(Notice I used LQ just then.) I have reversed the one LQ error that Curly Turkey just introduced. I see that Peer reviewer does not report this so I believe we have caught them all. Prhartcom (talk) 17:54, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Well that's the letter but not the spirit of LQ. The question to ask is whether the punctuation logically is punctuation the enclosing sentence, or the quotation. If you'r providing a full, gramatically complete quote, it makes sense to provide the punctuation that terminates that quote. If the quotation is a sentence fragment, you have to ask what you are conveying to the reader by including the terminal punctuation: why are you telling the reader the sentence fragment ended here in the original? for instance, take the quotation: "I thought it was wonderful." You could quote it as: He said, "I thought it was wonderful." Or you could write: He found it "wonderful". In the second case, you're incorporating the word "he" used, but the punctuation logically belongs to the enclosing sentence. It would be "correct" in a hairsplitting sense to quote it thus: He found it "wonderful.". But why are you telling the reader that the original quotation ended there? After have excised the entire rest of the quote, why include the punctuation? Certain not for "fidelity" to the original—particularly if it were a quote from an interview, in which case the interviewee never would have "said" the period; it would have been added afterwards by an editor or somebody. Curly Turkey¡gobble! 21:18, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Results
On Hold Overall, this is a very good article, though there are a number of changes that I think need to be made before it is promoted to GA status. I'm placing the article on hold for 7 days to allow time for edits, which can be extended depending on how work is progressing.
If you have any questions feel free to add them on this page. Wugapodes (talk) 02:47, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
(In case anyone's wondering why Curly Turkey's responding above, it's because Wugapodes asked me to pitch in as I've contributed to the article and Prhartcom appears to be on break). Curly Turkey¡gobble! 04:02, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
@Prhartcom: Since you're working on the article still, I'm extending the hold until the 12th. Wugapodes (talk) 03:30, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
I have completed editing this article (see my latest comments above) and await further comments from the reviewer. Thanks very much for your reviewing efforts. Prhartcom (talk) 21:13, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
Listed Congrats on such great work. I think this article is well on its way to WP:FA status. I'd recommend a proper copy edit before an FA nomination because, while the prose is good, it could still be improved to make it more compelling. Thanks both of you for being so responsive in the review process, and be sure to keep up the good work! Happy Editing, Wugapodes (talk) 21:30, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
Curly Turkey and Wugapodes: Nice, check out this article's number of page views for today after today's DYK, up from around 100 views a day to almost 10,000. The story of Harvey Kurtzman's baby is catching a few eyeballs. Prhartcom (talk) 03:44, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
Awesome. I always feel like Kurtzman is underappreciated, but when Goodman Beaver was on the Main Page it got nearly 33,000 views (one of my most-viewed TFAs). Curly Turkey¡gobble! 03:54, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
Nice. That article usually gets around 25 views per day (consistently less than Little Annie Fanny), and yesterday I'm sure you noticed it soared to over 350. Prhartcom (talk) 13:40, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
Copy edit
Miniapolis, I can't thank you enough for your copy editing on behalf of the Guild of Copy Editors. I have always said how much I greatly respect this group, especially as it is so valuable for an article to receive scrutiny from a skilled editor who is not close to the article. Naturally, I don't have room to list the numerous improvements I see your copy editing has done (such as observing it would be helpful to insert the word "male" before the introduction of the character Goodman Beaver, as this is the very point the article was trying to make!)(and thank-you for the "alt=" parameters!), but I do want to offer my sincere thanks here, because when I read the article now I see definite improvements that are truly exciting to me. As well, I feel it is important to raise a few thoughts for your consideration and I greatly look forward to reading your response:
The word "comics", when used in this context, is actually singular. The word "comics" here is a noun, not an adjective. I know, it's very unusual, but it is actually correct to say "comics feature" and incorrect to say "comic feature" (we are not using a synonym of the word "funny"). We need to restore the grammatically correct word "comics".
I always try to push the boundary of neutral writing to be as close as possible to "brilliant" writing, a feature required by FA. Therefore, I resist some attempts to "water down" my writing, changing strong words and phrases to weak words and phrases, as long as the neutral requirement is kept. However, I realize it is often controversial to do so among my fellow editors and I could very well be wrong in some of my choices. Having said all this, I wonder if I can convince you that "culmination of his career" is better than "late in his career" and "insisted that the material was not right for Playboy" is better than "thought that the material was not right for Playboy".
Everything else is looking really great. More later, as you continue working. Thank-you again. Prhartcom (talk) 19:01, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
Feel free to restore whatever you'd like; my copyedits are just an opinion of how an encyclopedia article should read (hence our slight disagreement about "brilliant" prose which seemed a bit essay-like to me), and I certainly defer to your greater knowledge of the subject. In the end, it's up to the FA reviewers; I've done my best. Miniapolis 23:53, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
Understood, and thanks again; it's really good to get an unbiased eye. Cheers, Prhartcom (talk) 03:33, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
Title punctuation
Placing the title "Little Annie Fanny" in italics is at odds with WikiProject Comics MOS. Features within a comic book or magazine are in quote marks, and comic-book or magazine series titles are italicized. For example, the feature "The Human Torch" ran in Strange Tales. "The Adventures of Phoebe Zeit-Geist" ran in the magazine Evergreen Review. It's directly analogous to songs being in quote marks and albums in italics, or short stories in quote marks and book titles in italics. --Tenebrae (talk) 14:43, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
After no responses whatsoever for more than a week, I've restored WikiProject:Comics MOS. We don't deviate from MOS without a clear consensus reason for making an exception. The title remains italicized and that needs to be addressed. --Tenebrae (talk) 22:54, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
Hi Tenebrae, sorry that I missed this earlier. I also went to Curly Turkey's page to ask about this, as I am not convinced of the merit of this argument. I agree with him that this is a misinterpretation of the MOS. Little Annie Fanny is a comics series. Another example is The Adventures of Tintin, originally published in Tintin magazine. I was waiting for a self-revert but have now done so myself. Best, —Prhartcom♥ 12:21, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
@Prhartcom: Your revert is absolutely OK — I'm a big fan of discussion and not edit-warring. I do think, in fact, it might be good to get a larger discussion going at the main WikiProject:Comics talk page, since the distinction might be between features in comic books and features in magazines. For example, this paragraph from Ernie Hart
Hart also worked on "Pookey the Poetical Pup" and "Ding-a-Ling the Little Bellboy" in Krazy Komics; "Wacky Willie" and "Andy Wolf & Bertie Mouse" in Terrytoons Comics; "Skip O'Hare" in Comedy Comics; and the heroic-adventure feature "Victory Boys" for Timely. Other Golden Age comics work includes "Egbert and the Count" and "Marmaduke Mouse" for Quality Comics' Hit Comics...
would be highly confusing to the average reader if rendered
Hart also worked on Pookey the Poetical Pup and Ding-a-Ling the Little Bellboy in Krazy Komics; Wacky Willie and Andy Wolf & Bertie Mouse in Terrytoons Comics; Skip O'Hare in Comedy Comics; and the heroic-adventure feature Victory Boys for Timely. Other Golden Age comics work includes Egbert and the Count and Marmaduke Mouse for Quality Comics' Hit Comics...
Does that make sense? --Tenebrae (talk) 20:56, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
Tenebrae, it does indeed; I always understood exactly what you meant. Are "Pookey the Poetical Pup" and "Ding-a-Ling the Little Bellboy" comics features that lasted several decades, widely discussed outside their respective comic book worlds, and "took on a life of their own"? There must be a middle ground; perhaps, as you said, the magazine vs. comic book is the key difference. Maybe the discussion you mentioned can identify those comics that "transcend" smaller titles. Best, —Prhartcom♥ 21:25, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
@Prhartcom: Thank you again for the thoughtful discussion. It's a tough one, alright, since "took on a life of their own" isn't quantifiable. I'm concerned that without some objective criteria that we'll be hard put to distinguish the "Nicky Fury, Agent of SHIELD" feature in Strange Tales from the Nick Fury, Agent of SHIELD comic-book series. I know "feature in a magazine" vs. "feature in a comic book" sounds arbitrary, but at least it's objective. (I also don't think it's the best, since there were ongoing features in Marvel's 1970s black-and-white comics magazines.) Any brainstorming ideas? I'm reluctant to start an RfC without two or three possible alternatives to offer.--Tenebrae (talk) 21:33, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
Tenebrae, I don't really have any brainstorming ideas, as I am honestly finding a punctuation discussion a little bit pointy. Generally speaking, I don't believe it is a problem to have one established comics title appear in italics and another short-lived, more unknown, title appearing in quote marks, as I think people will hardly notice and will intuitively understand the reason. Best, —Prhartcom♥ 14:06, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
Not wanting to have arbitrary punctuation is a good thing that can only help provide clarity, which is one of an encyclopedia's missions. I'm sorry you don't agree. --Tenebrae (talk) 14:20, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
Forgive me Tenebrae; that didn't turn out right. I should have clarified that I was not making an accusation. I was trying to say that we both should avoid pointy behavior. Yes, grammar is important. But to go to the trouble to set up yet another rule to follow applicable only within the comics world makes me want to invoke WP:IAR. Best, —Prhartcom♥ 14:52, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
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