Talk:Little Russia Governorate (1796–1802)

Rename?

I would suggest to rename this article to Little Russia Governorate since the article about overall "Malorossiya" is currently located at Little Russia.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 18:25, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't now. But there are some burning questions do you want to expand on the template in guberniya. After all sooner or later we will have to write articles for the 100+ guberniyas that made up the Russian Empire. Also should we create a namestnichestvo article? --Kuban Cossack 18:49, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

It should come as no surprise to you that I have a dedicated guberniya infobox on my to-do list :) Untifler created one a while ago (see {{Infobox Russian governorate}}; used in Kazan Governorate), but I wouldn't deploy it as-is just yet, because it was mostly a copy-paste of {{Infobox Russian federal subject}} with a few modifications. If you have any suggestions about improving it, I'll gladly add them to the list of features to implement. As usual, however, I am not making any guarantees as to when I'll actually get to coding this infobox (I hate to make promises which I might not be able to keep).

As for the article about namestnichesvo, we should definitely have something but I am still not entirely sure what the title of the article should be. I've seen "vice-royalty" used in some sources, but it does not seem to be very common in academic works; and straight "namestnichestvo" seems like an awful clumsy name (which is not terribly common either). Many sources seem to just use terms "governorate" and "namestnichestvo" interchangeably, which is not always a good practice, but it shows that we are not the only ones having trouble with terminology :) Might as well use "vice-royalty" if nothing better occurs to us; it is at least an English word.

Finally, do you have any objections to the title "Little Russia Governorate"? I am not 100% sure myself, but I don't really have any compelling reasons why this would not be a good title. Cheers,—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 19:18, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm reverting the page move. I'm not sure which title is better, but "Little Russia Governorate" produces zero hits in Google. --Greggerr (talk) 22:46, 26 April 2008 (UTC) Oh, Google hits. But there is a policy WP:ENGLISH, and also Little Russia article. hence, IMHO, English may be better in this case.--Lokyz (talk) 06:37, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

This article describes a particular administrative unit of Russian Empire. It's not the same as what is described in Little Russia. Lack of Google hits indicates that the term "Little Russia Governorate" has no usage in English. --Greggerr (talk) 17:56, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Well in that case would it make sense to move articles such as Vistulan Country to Visla Kray, also would Volhynian Governorate -> Volyn Governorate and the like also not be appropriate? Google is irrelvant here (considering its but an admin unit that existed for less that six years two centuries ago...) since we are talking about principle not Google (otherwise a number of moves such as Kharkiv -> Kharkov would be appropriate) --Kuban Cossack 19:33, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Speaking of which about all the titles here should they not be moved to their Russian equivalent? After all the same logic can be applied in reverse to articles such as Lwów Voivodeship becoming a Lviv Voivodeship...just some ideas for thought. --Kuban Cossack 19:37, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

As a side note, the English-language Encyclopedia of Ukraine calls this governorate "Little Russia" (also [1]).—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 19:47, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

The Encyclopedia of Ukraine uses terms: Little Russia gubernia, Chernihiv gubernia, Chernihiv voivodeship. Are you advocating for the usage of these terms, or only for a particular part which you like? --Greggerr (talk) 23:11, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

"Guberni(y)a" and "governorate" mean the same thing. So do "Malorossiya" and "Little Russia". The latter terms, however, are English, and the former are not. Seeing how no combination of these terms has an established English usage (apart from a few instances here and there, which do not affect the big picture much), I'd say we should stick with WP:UE and use the terms "governorate" and "Little Russia". Hence, "Little Russia Governorate", not "Malorossiya Guberniya", not "Little Russia Guberniya", and not "Malorossiya Governorate". It's more of a matter of consistency, standardization, and style, which are all good things to fall back to when no common usage patterns exist.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 14:59, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Merge proposal

I propose merging Little Russia Governorate (1764–1781) into Little Russia Governorate (1796–1802). I haven’t seen reliable sources treat these as separate subjects. The articles are small and under-sourced, and would give a better overview as a single text.

I chose the latter as merge target because it was started earlier in December 2007, the other article in January 2016.

This was previously discussed in an inconclusive multi-merge proposal at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ukraine/Archive 7#Merging articles on governorates in Ukraine, with participation of user:Ymblanter and user:Marcelus (the main objection raised there does not apply to this article). —Michael Z. 15:29, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Precedents for articles on discontinuous subdivisions include Novorossiya Governorate (1764–1783 and 1796–1802).  —Michael Z. 15:35, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Also treated in a single article are the following:

1. Sloboda Ukraine Governorate 1765–1780
2. Kharkiv Viceroyalty 1780–1796
3. Sloboda Ukraine Governorate 1796–1835
4. Kharkov Governorate 1835–1917 (1925)

But a separate one for the same subdivision of Ukraine:

1. Kharkiv Governorate 1918–1925

 —Michael Z. 15:46, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

See also Talk:Kharkov Governorate#Proposed merge of Kharkiv Governorate into Kharkov Governorate.  —Michael Z. 21:30, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

Also a single article:

1. Mykolaiv Governorate 1802–1803
2. Kherson Governorate 1803–1920
3. Mykolaiv Governorate 1920–1922

 —Michael Z. 16:02, 22 October 2023 (UTC)