Talk:Louis Tregardt
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Spelling of surname[edit]
This article has a non-standard spelling. Louis Trichardt seems to be the accepted spelling, including on the Afrikaans wikipedia. Why is this spelling used here? If the town name conflicts, then why not retitle this article Louis Trichardt (Voortrekker leader), as is done on the Afrikaans wikipedia? Park3r (talk) 14:58, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
- The name is as he wrote and signed it himself, Tregardt. His son Carolus changed it to Trigardt, and signed his name such when he lived in Delagoa Bay. The name of the town is indeed written differently, possibly on the advice of his son, 60 years later. His son likely imagined that he was correcting the ancestral name, when he wasn't. Both Preller and Punt indeed refer to Louis as "Trichardt", but I believe this is an anachronism. One substantiating document is provided in Punt, 1953, Louis Trichardt se laaste skof, page 222, a proxy which Louis offered his son, where Louis signs his name L. Tregardt. This document is kept in the historical archive of Mozambique (LM-1 Of. Liv.1 Fls (8v./9)). See also The Voorste Mense, by Oliver Ransford. JMK (talk) 12:38, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
- The Standard Encyclopedia of Southern Africa (SESA) says: At the Cape the Swedish family name was rendered in Dutch in various forms such as Trigaardt, Triegaart, Tregart, Trigart, Triegard, Tregardt. The Voortrekker leader consistently wrote "Tregardt"; but, round about 1882, "Trichardt" was the form adopted by his son Carolus, because of a supposed French origin. Louis was baptised on 10 April 1785 at Paarl and the baptismal register (where the spelling was usually left to the parish clerk or the minister) records that his father was Karel Johannes Trigaart and his mother Anna Elizabeth Nel. JMK (talk) 12:59, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
- Preller, 1939, p. XLII, has a slightly different opinion (free translation): "The progenitor of the name in South Africa wrote his name "Triegard", which seems to be the rational Dutch spelling. His children however were recorded in the baptismal register and marriage records as Tregart and Tregard, though these may have been subject to the whim of the reverend. Louis, the voortrekker seldom wrote his name anything other than "Trigardt", causing me to hold to this spelling in the first (Academy) edition. In this edition I returned it to the most general current spelling (Trichardt), as the other versions brought too much confusion. Under the influence of probably French relations, one branch of his Transvaal family - the descendants of Carolus - have begun to write Trichardt, while the children of another son chose to write Triegaard and Trigaard."
Consequently "Trichardt" seems to be a much later variant, not known to the man in question. The town was established about 60 years after his death. JMK (talk) 13:20, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
- Preller, 1939, p. XLII, has a slightly different opinion (free translation): "The progenitor of the name in South Africa wrote his name "Triegard", which seems to be the rational Dutch spelling. His children however were recorded in the baptismal register and marriage records as Tregart and Tregard, though these may have been subject to the whim of the reverend. Louis, the voortrekker seldom wrote his name anything other than "Trigardt", causing me to hold to this spelling in the first (Academy) edition. In this edition I returned it to the most general current spelling (Trichardt), as the other versions brought too much confusion. Under the influence of probably French relations, one branch of his Transvaal family - the descendants of Carolus - have begun to write Trichardt, while the children of another son chose to write Triegaard and Trigaard."
- The Standard Encyclopedia of Southern Africa (SESA) says: At the Cape the Swedish family name was rendered in Dutch in various forms such as Trigaardt, Triegaart, Tregart, Trigart, Triegard, Tregardt. The Voortrekker leader consistently wrote "Tregardt"; but, round about 1882, "Trichardt" was the form adopted by his son Carolus, because of a supposed French origin. Louis was baptised on 10 April 1785 at Paarl and the baptismal register (where the spelling was usually left to the parish clerk or the minister) records that his father was Karel Johannes Trigaart and his mother Anna Elizabeth Nel. JMK (talk) 12:59, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
- This is fascinating, and thanks for doing this research. However, in my mind, the question comes down to what he is known as commonly as per WP:AT. Not many South Africans would know the correct spelling of his name. Having studied history in school for example (late 1980's and 1990's), I cannot ever recall reading his name spelled as anything but "Trichardt". Also we can look at the Afrikaans Wikipedia, which is presumably edited by his own ethnic group, and again we see the spelling Trichardt. Park3r (talk) 13:22, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
- It seems as if Tregardt, for Louis, is pretty much current and accepted practice. A few examples from the Afrikaans newspaper Beeld (translated):
- Beeld 23-01-1986: "1847: Stephanus Petrus Erasmus Trichardt, son of Carolus Tregardt, and grandson of the Voortrekker Louis Tregardt ..."
- Beeld 14-10-2003 ... 1830's the trekker parties of Hans van Rensburg and Louis Tregardt criss-crossed the Soutpansberg region. Tregardt intended ...
- Beeld 02-12-2007 On Tuesday 5 December 1837 Tregardt wrote ...
- Beeld 26-06-2011 The novel is based on the sometimes cryptic note book of Louis Tregardt
- Beeld 23-09-2011 ...the Louis Tregardt memorial garden in Maputo ...
- Will ask the Afrikaans users for a move to "Tregardt". JMK (talk) 08:29, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
- It seems as if Tregardt, for Louis, is pretty much current and accepted practice. A few examples from the Afrikaans newspaper Beeld (translated):
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Spelling and WP:COMMONNAME (2018)[edit]
Whatever the "correct" name, WP:COMMONNAME would strongly favour Louis Trichardt as the name of this article, especially given that the number of results for Trichardt dwarfs Tregardt (the fact that some refer to the town doesn't mean a lot, since the town name's (mis?) spelling would merely strengthen the case for WP:COMMONNAME being Louis Trichardt). Would anyone be averse to a move to Louis Trichardt (Voortrekker)? 21:54, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
- Thanks for alerting me, and I'm not disinclined to reconsider this but I personally see no basis for it. "Trichardt" started only with Carolus, Tregardt's son, cf. Dictionary of South African Biography (DSAB) volume 4, page 694. Would prefer to see references rather than (ambiguous) search engine results, and if we consider engine results (I hardly see applicable results anyway) I wonder which of them would qualify as references? Which references are we talking about? Who are the people proposing this? Don't know one today, and don't want to mix internet nonsense with scholarly sources. Yes, sahistory.org.za (anonymous author!) indeed calls him Trichardt here[1], (and Tregardt elsewhere) only to illustrate Tregardt using a photo of his son(!), indeed a Trichardt by choice. Further saying that "sources disagree as to when the voortrekkers arrived in the Soutpansberg" (which sources would be unsure about that?!) Further saying "Trichardt's group started exploring the area north of the Soutpansberg in search of van Rensburg". No, that was Potgieter's group, as Tregardt's group (only later) searched south and east of the mountain. The internet search engines' (ambiguous) search results of today reflect (besides two towns, descendants and other) an intermediate period, the early 20th century to the apartheid era, when many inaccurate views prevailed: a wrong portrait was for instance used to illustrate Jan van Riebeeck in education and all banknotes. "Tregardt" is used in the Voortrekker Monument at present, and also in their communications, where they refer to the "Louis Tregardt Gedenktuin in Maputo". I believe it is the spelling used in every scholarly source since the 80's, or earlier, holding sway at present, which will likely continue in future. The DSAB of 1987, volume 1, page 837, gives us "Louis Tregardt" (with 8 alternative spellings) and volume 5, page 826, gives us "Carolus Johannes Tregardt (1753-c.1800), and "Jacobus Gustavus Tregardt" (1745-1818). HOWEVER, a descendant is correctly given as "Petrus Frederik Trichardt" (1856-1925), see page 828, and "S. P. E. Trichardt" (1849-1907), see page 769, vol. 2. This solution to the Trichardt/Trigardt/Triegardt/Tregardt problem is a convention reached by interested historians, without anyone complaining to my knowledge. I see it here again: Louis Tregardt's diary as an historical source, Grobler, 2013. Grobler and DSAB (not perfect either) are what I consider to be a valid secondary sources, not sahistory.org.za, which elsewhere says that Robert Gordon (1743–1795) may have read Tregardt's diary(!)[2]. And yes, the article certainly complies with wikipedia's rules, because it is in line with the unanimous secondary sources that appeared in the last 40 years or so. JMK (talk) 12:39, 14 May 2018 (UTC)