Talk:Love & Gravity

Love & Gravity was a Music good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
October 20, 2009	Good article nominee	Not listed
March 7, 2011	Good article nominee	Not listed

Current status: Former good article nominee

Fair use rationale for Image:Lovegravity.jpg[edit]

Image:Lovegravity.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 23:37, 6 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Tags[edit]

I will start discussion by explaining that the first tag should not apply to the material in the article. It is not a collection of dubious information about a fictional work but an article discussing a mainstream album. The content is not unencyclopedic, but instead is well-written and informative. If more additions are made, it has the potentiality of being a good article and ultimately a featured article candidate. It is no different than featured articles such as 1987 (What the Fuck Is Going On?), except that it currently lacks the same amount of content. I would ask the tagger to please explain how he believes the article to be a fansite.

For the second tag, the charge of original research is not grounded in fact. All information is sourced, and the descriptions of the songs are based upon the songs, not upon any unreferenced analysis of them. I would ask the tagger to identify original research in the article. --Lost Fugitive (talk) 00:25, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Original research[edit]

Okay, some of these things are indeed too detailed. "Alluding to the American idiom of a "hole in my head."" and citing only a dictionary entry for "hole in my head" is definitely original research, as is "dances with her Shadow" (a metaphor for loneliness)". I think the article, as a whole, is too detailed compared to the sources. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • ^{(Many otters • One hammer • HELP)} 00:33, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Hole in My Head" is an American idiom and is referenced. It is merely describing the title of a track, I cannot see how it is too detailed. This is where the title came to be. And again, the metaphor in "dancing with her shadow" is understood, otherwise your interpretation of the work is flawed. All the needed information is referenced in the song lyrics just as the featured article I linked above.--Lost Fugitive (talk) 00:40, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That article is cited to works that actually describe the song's content. All you cited was the lyrics section of CMT, which is not the same thing. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • ^{(Many otters • One hammer • HELP)} 01:03, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

But that is all the information needed as noted above.--Lost Fugitive (talk) 03:08, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have just come across Wikipedia:These are not original research and Wikipedia:PRIMARY. I believe that the information in the article follows these guidelines because although a primary source is used, the information in the article is strictly description and therefore the corresponding tag should be removed. At least, we should agree that the first tag should be removed. --Lost Fugitive (talk) 03:35, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

But I agree with both tags. You simply do not know why a title of a song is what it is unless you have a good reference to the author of the song. The British playwright Alan Ayckbourn was known for giving plays random titles that had nothing to do with the play itself, and simply because a title resembles an idiom doesn't mean that making the connection isn't original research. It is not just description. The descriptions of each song are far too detailed, even for this Blackhawk fan. Dougweller (talk) 17:36, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I must say, the insertions of the citation tags on the page are excessive. I don't think I like it much here.--Lost Fugitive (talk) 17:44, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry about that, but it's caused by your edits. Below the edit summary (below the window I'm typing in), it does say that content must be verifiable. And at the bottom, it says if you don't want your writing mercilessly edited, don't submit it. You may know this as given your first edits, you've probably got more experience of Wikipedia than your account suggests. Anyway, if you add a lot of uncited stuff plus the OR you've added, you should expect a lot of fact tags to follow. Dougweller (talk) 17:58, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Resonable deductions from primary sources are permissible under the original research principle. A brief synopsis of tracks on a a mainstream country album is not excessive unless the admission is made that the featured article linked above is also excessive, which I reject. I find your actions appalling and I hope you can better explain your actions rather than defacing an article.--Lost Fugitive (talk) 18:02, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No they are not unless they are mathematical or logical, by which is meant formal logic. If you have read our policies and guidelines you will know that you are not allowed to make personal attacks. I will leave a formal warning on your talk page to make sure you understand this. Dougweller (talk) 18:46, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This falls under the sphere of a literary synopsis. They are resonable summaries strictly from the primary source. Do we agree that the fan tag should be removed?--Lost Fugitive (talk) 18:53, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You're stretching what it says under literary synopsis too far when you decide that 'Hole in my heart' has something to do with 'Hole in my head'. That's interpretation. And as for your comparison with the FA article goes, that article might not make FA today, our policies and guidelines and even expecations are very different. Dougweller (talk) 20:55, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I am willing to remove instances that may be construed as interpretation, but for the most part I believe most of the descriptions are synopsis. The featured article linked above was promoted on Oct 16 2006. Looking back on the policy of WP:FAN from that date to today [1] the differences are not that distinct.--Lost Fugitive (talk) 22:16, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Metaphor[edit]

Is the labelling of a word in a work as a metaphor original research or is it a reasonable reflection of a primary source? I am inclined to believe the latter. Take for instance the transcript of a speech. If the speaker remarks that something is "putting lipstick on a pig" we can rightfully assume he is using a metaphor, just as we can righfully reflect that lyrics in a BlackHawk song are using a metaphor. --Lost Fugitive (talk) 22:02, 29 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's the fact that you're saying that "hole in my heart" is based on "hole in my head", when the source doesn't corroborate that, and in fact no sources seems to corroborate that. Furthermore, I still think that you need better sources than just the lyrics sites. Featured articles use that level of detail, but they don't use lyrics sites as references. Why can't you seem to grasp that? Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • ^{(Many otters • One hammer • HELP)} 04:28, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I deleted the "hole in my head" sentence, I was referring to the "metaphor for loneliness" statement. I have found other sources but they cannot be accessed without a fee. I believe that once I gain access to these sources, the article will be much improved and there will no longer be an issue. But until these sources are used, I believe what is currently in the article are plot synopsises from a primary source, and that is acceptable.--Lost Fugitive (talk) 04:37, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review[edit]

This review is transcluded from Talk:Love & Gravity/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Hello editors. I'll be reviewing this article for GA. Check back a little later for an analysis. Tim meh (review me) 22:16, 23 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The fair use screenshots don't look like they have a purpose here. They shouldn't be here unless they exemplify something further than the text could, and there isn't even any text describing the music videos.

The references aren't formatted consistently. They should all have access dates and the publishers should be wikilinked.

There aren't any sources for the chart positions. There needs to be a reliable source for each. See Wikipedia:Record charts for a list of good archive sites.

Upon quick scanning, the article looks lacking in sources, and I see a large amount of CMT lyrics pages cited. More on this later... Tim meh (review me) 22:44, 23 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This article is definitely lacking in sources. I see three whole paragraphs that are completely unsourced. Every claim of fact must cite a reliable source. The article is also a bit quote-heavy. This shows in the references. About a third of them are to song lyrics.

I suggest merging the "tracks" and "singles" sections. There's no need to have a separate section just to describe the singles. Also, the track-by-track descriptions need to be shortened and summarized. The section is too long as is. The article setup seems a bit odd to me as well. Take a look at Wikipedia:Album#Article body for an idea of what the main points of the article should be.

It's going to take a lot of work on your part, as these are major issues, but I'll give you a chance to bring this up to GA quality. I'm going to put the article on hold for now so you have a chance to work on it and fix the issues. I'll give you a few days to get the issues dealt with. Tim meh (review me) 02:39, 25 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've been very busy lately. I don't know when I'll be able to address these issues but I will address them eventually.--Lost Fugitive (talk) 18:22, 1 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, but I'm going to have to fail this. It's been 26 days since I put the review on hold, and the normal allowance is only a week. Feel free to resubmit it to WP:GAN when you've addressed my concerns. Tim meh 23:59, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]