Talk:Lower Assam/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Derogatory False Misleading

• What references do you have that prompt you to display "Ancient Lower Assam, known as Kamarupa"?
• What was "Ancient Upper Assam"?
• What is the formal method to register a complaint to Wikipedia for investigation?

Kurmaa (talk) 20:28, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Why use derogatory Ahom term lower Assam?

• This Lower Assam is a derogatory Ahom term that both mongoloid Ahom & dravidian Ahom have been using.
• It is the English version of their local dialect Assamese word dhekeri. The word dhekeri is found in Hemkosh as well written by Hem Chandra Barua. The local dialect Assamese (also now state language of Assam for political reasons) word dhekeri is derogatory as well.
• The Ahom who have been with ethnocentrism behaviour created this derogatory term to refer both people of Kamarupa/Kamrup as well as their language Kamarupi/Kamrupi.

• No Kamarupa/Kamrup and or Kamarupi/Kamrupi matter shall be connected/presented with any term that starts with ass such as Assamese and or Assam.

• Tai-Ahom were the people immigrated from that time Thailand and established Ahom kingdom in eastern part of Kamarupa. That explains why Assamese has lot Kamarupi/Kamrupi words used in a manner inappropriate, e.g., dhekeri in Kamarupi/ Kamrupi holds the meaning bitch.

Kurmaa (talk) 20:28, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Why use Wikipedia to practice Ahom ethnocentrism and Ahom supremacy?

• Kamarupi/Kamrupi shall be presented as Kamarupi/Kamrupi, besides Kamarupi/Kamrupi people are minorities in Assam, Bengal, Bhutan, Bangladesh, other part of India - no government represents them. Kamarupi/Kamrupi art shall be preserved as Kamarupi/Kamrupi.

• This Lower Assam page must go.
• Politics shall not be cornerstone in Wikipedia.

Kurmaa (talk) 20:28, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

• Why do you use Wikipedia to practice Ahom ethnocentrism and Ahom supremacy?

Kurmaa (talk) 21:41, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Why use Wikipedia to present Kamrupi matter in a manner inappropriate?

If you don't know how to respect minorities don't bother to write about them.

Kurmaa (talk) 20:28, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

How long it takes to correct this page?

• How long do you think you will take to correct this page?
• Look at Huen Tsang Kamarupa for borders. You cannot use Ancient Lower Assam for Kamarupa.
• Please honor traditional Kamarupi nomenclature.
• Lower Assam is not found in any Kamrupi scripture.

Kurmaa (talk) 20:28, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Why do you use Wikipedia to present Kamrupi matter in a manner inappropriate?

Kurmaa (talk) 21:41, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

How Ahom people uses the term Lower Assam?

• Both Dravidian Ahom and Mongoloid Ahom uses Lower Assam - ([1]), see for terminology - ([2]).
• These Ahom people who uses Lower Assam exhibit Ahom ethnocentrism as well as Ahom supremacy, e.g., ([3]).

Kurmaa (talk) 21:41, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

How Kamrupi/other concerned people uses the term Western Assam?

Books and Journals

• Ghulam Husain Salim, "The Riyazu-S_Salatin, A History of Bengal", translated from the original Persian by Maulavi Abdus Salam, M.A., published in Bibliotheca Indica, Volume 154 By Asiatic Society (Calcutta, India) Page 132, 1902 ([4]).

• Banikanta Kakati, "Assamese, Its Formation and Development", Published by the Government of Assam, 1941 ([5]).

• George B. Schaller, The Deer and The Tiger A Study of Wildlife in India, the University of Chicago Press LTD., London 1967, ISBN 0-226-73631-8 ([6]) see p38 and p39.

• See Scholarly Usage ([7]) section for more.

Britannica Academic Edition

"The Eastern Duars, in western Assam state", ([8]).

UNESCO

"Western Assam Wildlife", ([9]).

Assam Tourism

"Places to visit in Western Assam", ([10])

Academic and Journal

"Academic and journal usage", ([11]).

Popular Newspapers

The Indian Express

"Forty years ago, a tribal boy from a remote village in Western Assam was compelled to take up a temporary job at the government press in Shillong, then the capital of undivided Assam, for a paltry sum of Rs 80 a month.", ([12]).

"3 dozens more articles with western Assam, ([13]).

BBC News

"Western Assam", ([14]).

"Other articles", ([15]).

CNN-IBN

"Western Assam content", ([16]).

The Hindu

"The demographic reality of western Assam is a mosaic of different ethnicities with their own claims of identity and territorial aspirations.", ([17]).

"About a dozen more", ([18]).

Hindustan Times

"Assam has had a history of territorial battles between many of its 30 indigenous tribal and non-tribal groups but the violence in western Assam’s Bodoland Territorial Council (BTC) since July 20 appears to have united them against a common enemy — Bangladeshi immigrants.", ([19]).

"Other 25 'Western Assam' usage", ([20]).

Kurmaa (talk) 17:38, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

Suggested Nomenclature in Wikipedia for Kamarupa/Kamrup

• Please use authentic Kamarupi/Kamrupi nomenclature that have been used in present undivided Kamrup or western Assam - especially write in Roman Script using same transliteration method used for Sanskrit.

Kurmaa (talk) 08:21, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Filter-out any/all derogatory terms

• Kindly filter-out any/all derogatory terms that Ahom have been using - including derogatory terms used for other indigenous-tribe, e.g., abar used for adi tribe of Arunachal Pradesh.
• Ahom ethnocentrism and Ahom supremacy shall not be practiced in Wikipedia.

Kurmaa (talk) 21:41, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Move proposal

I oppose the move of "Lower Assam" to "Western Assam". "Lower Assam" is widely used in popular media as well as academic literature. The nomenclature "Lower Assam" was introduced by the British to denote the lower reaches of the Assam (Brahmaputra) Valley.

• Popular media:
  • "However, the said trains were controlled at various stations of lower Assam and North Bengal." August 24, 2012, The Assam Tribune
  • "Fresh violence in Lower Assam, one person killed, 2 injured", August 26, 2012 The Indian Express
• Scholarly media: [21]

Chaipau (talk) 00:34, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Agree. The name "Lower Assam" is consistently used in literature.--Thegreatgrabber (talk) 03:26, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

Usage of term "Western Assam" by Scholars and in Popular Media

Scolarly Usage

• Bengali and other related dialects of south Assam, Sudhāṃśu Śekhara Tuṅga, thence proceeded southward to North Bengal and eastward to western Assam.
• Encyclopaedia of the World Muslims: Tribes, Castes and Communities: Volume 1, Nagendra Kr Singh, Abdul Mabud Khan, between rural and urban areas and also between eastern and western Assam. In parts of western Assam there are strong feelings
• Socio-economic Profile of Rural India: North-East India (Assam, Manipur, Tripura, Nagaland), V. K. Agnihotri, Chandragupta Ashokvardhan, Rajendra Vora, It is a fact that feudalism had a stunted growth in Western Assam.
• Assam General Knowledge,The invasion of western Assam
• Historical development of legal literature on customary laws in Assam: A critical study, Wakidur Rohman, entire literary activities shifted from Western Assam to Estern Assam
• Indian Literature, Nagendra, So long the dialectal stamp of western Assam was the characteristic of the main body of the literature
• History of Upper Assam, Upper Burmah and North-Eastern Frontier, Leslie Shakespear, stream entering western Assam through the valleys of the Tista, Dharla, and Sankosh rivers
• Encyclopedia of the Stateless Nations: D-K, James Minahan, In return for dropping territorial claims to western Assam
• Biographical encyclopedia of Sufis, N. Hanif, Khidr, Khawaja (18th Century) Khawaja Khidr who deserves our attention, was a Sufi of Western Assam
• Earthquake prediction: an international review, David W. Simpson, Paul G. Richards, American Geophysical Union,1897 Western Assam The 1897 earthquake (Figure 8) is the largest well-documented earthquake in India

Popular Media Usage

• Link
• Link
• Link
• Link
• Link
• Link
• Link
• Link
• Link
• Link

Thanks !

bbhagawati (talk) 03:14, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

Your examples do not show that "Lower Assam" is derogatory. Chaipau (talk) 22:19, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

Don't move article any further until you have atleast fifty sources, because i can provide more than this in my case. As it was Western Assam before your attempt to move it to Lower Assam, which was not back by enough sources nor by other two people involve here including me, its on your part to justify the same, till kept it as original.

bbhagawati (talk) 02:23, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

The page was created as "Lower Assam" (here). When the notice was put, the page was "Lower Assam" (here). So please maintain status quo till an independent user adjudicates on the move request. Since you are one of the disputing parties, you cannot set down rules and judge whether you have satisfied all the move criteria. Chaipau (talk) 10:39, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

Here are the results of a count on scholar.google.com:

• "lower assam" 1,020 results
• "western assam" 410 results

And here are the results from a google search:

• "lower assam" 878,000 results
• "western assam" 54,100 results

This clearly shows that "lower assam" is more prevalent on the Internet. The google searches agree with what is written in Bannerjee "[The] territory from Biswanath to Goalpara—was known as Western Assam; but another name—Lower Assam—gradually came into use." (Banerjee 1992, p. 9)", given in the text. The name of the book "History of Upper Assam, Upper Burmah and North-Eastern Frontier", Leslie Shakespeare which you quote from above, clear shows that "Lower Assam" and "Upper Assam" became common use. Chaipau (talk) 11:09, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

Kindly provide proper and enough sources instead of indulging in move warring. This is how you move the original page without consensus and enough sources. भास्कर्bhagawati Speak 16:45, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

I moved it back to "Lower Assam" after it was moved to "Western Assam". The page was created (by you) as "Lower Assam" (here). You moved the page without explanation diff and I moved it back to "Lower Assam" with explanation diff after your move.

• I have given the source that "Lower Assam" is a standard name in the text as well as here (Bannerjee 1992, p9).
• Further, it is a well defined administrative division. There is a Commissioner, Lower Assam division, Government of Assam (Shri Sabbir Hussain, SCS-1996, Commissioner, Lower Assam Division, Assam given here.
• The internet returns more hits for "Lower Assam" than for "Western Assam" (given above)

So please maintain status quo (move back the page to "Lower Assam") till an independent editor/admin can review the evidence here.

Chaipau (talk) 17:18, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

As creator himself reverted or edited his own edit, there is no major need for explanation for same. User Kurmaa's objection and sources seems quite convincing for now, waiting for consensus for further drastic change. Thanks ! भास्कर्bhagawati Speak 03:59, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

Just because you created the page does not mean you have ownership. You do have to follow Wikipedia policies and conventions. The most important of which is collaborative editing, and in case of a dispute, a resolution via an independent and neutral party. Chaipau (talk) 10:44, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Kurmaa Blocked

Where is the evidence that "Lower Assam" is derogatory from Kurmaa, except for an unsubstantiated claim? On the contrary, I have given evidence it is widely used including by the Government of Assam. Chaipau (talk) 11:20, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

• I see that Ahom user Chaipau had used Wikipedia resources to gag Kurmaa.
• How can gagged Kurmaa now defend indigenous ethnic minorities of Western Assam in Wikipedia?
• Also, it appears as per some emails in assamonline yahoogroups Assam government has been led by Ahom - for example during past 3 decades, first a Dravidian Ahom Prafulla Mahanta and now a Mongoloid Ahom (to be specific Tai-Ahom) name Tarun Gogoi. User Chaipau is a Tai-Ahom too.
• Thus, we have seen Ahom occupiers altering a lot of nomenclatures in Western Assam.
• A better approach for Wikipedia shall be to find out what indigenous ethnic minorities of Western Assam want.

130.65.109.101 (talk) 20:22, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

And as the creator of the "Lower Assam" page, the "Lower Assam" WikiProject, "Lower Assam" category, you obviously took great pride in "Lower Assam". This shows that the only evidence of the derogatory nature is an unsubstantiated claim by Kurmaa. Chaipau (talk) 11:52, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

• It has caught my attention that a local Ahom group out there in Guwahati have been putting pressure on user Bhaskarbhagawati for a while.

130.65.109.101 (talk) 20:22, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Lower Assam usage more complex and troubling

I see that this Lower Assam usage is more complex and troubling than just writing Wikipedia pages citing some references.

Here I also see that user Chaipau himself is an Ahom while the other party is not Ahom but ethnic minority.

Before writing this note I have visited several talk pages one such for example is ([22]).

In another talk page, according to a Ahom user Lachitbarphukan, it appears that Ahom have been occupying undivided Kamrup (here Western Assam) since 1617 CE ([23]).

It looks like after British occupation ended, Ahom have taken over Kamrup and thus Ahom have been doing what they like on the ethnic minorities out there.

Lower Assam a English translation of local Ahom word নামোনি আহোম

I see that Lower Assam is a translation of the 2-letter word নামোনি আহোম spoken in a dialect that Ahom people speaks out there.

Though this word is written নামনি আসম, Ahom people in genera reads it as নামোনি আহোম, like হুনোর আহোম for example where certain phonemic deficiency is observed.

So it is not really a word that British coined it during British India as user Chaipau claimed in ([24]).

Lower Assam count in google about 266 million

Talking about "Lower Saxony, Lower Canada, the Low Countries, Low Fell" as in ([25]) one gets "Lower Sax, Lower Can, the Low Cou, Low Fell", but with Lower Assam, however, one gets Lower Ass (About 266,000,000 results) that does not sound right as those of Lower Sax, Lower Can, the Low Cou, Low Fell, i.e., Lower Ass holds pretty different meaning.

So you would expect at least some to use this Lower Ass term to ridicule people of Western Assam.

User Chaipau's numbers in google search differs over 20,000

• Talking about numbers, ethnic minority Kamrupi people are under 4 million.

• While Ahom population are over 12 million - include all as in here, i.e., not just Tai-Ahom trying to be ST in India.

• Though google search numbers and or user Chaipu disputing do not hold any meaning as because Chaipu himself is one among Ahom, I would like to point here:- "lower assam" 878,000 results

• I did not see 878,000 results, but I see About 856,000 results (0.19 seconds). So there is a difference over 20,000

Other discussion

I see that there is a backdoor talk going on in a different link. Should a visitor of this page be interested on what has been going on thru backdoor please visit Backdoor talk

How many Kamrupi users Wikipedia has?

My questions for an Wikipedia administrator who is intelligible, responsible and concerned about minority matter.

• How many Kamrupi users Wikipedia has?
• How to find whether Kamrupi journalists/reporters use Western Assam or Lower Assam?

Appreciate it very much!

130.65.109.101 (talk) 21:54, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Assam and Bharat abbreviation usage

Raving paranoia is not an argument. Now are you are claiming that "Assam" itself is derogatory because it can be abbreviated to "ass" (by which I assume you intend to imply "arse" rather than "donkey"). Is the upper ass better than the lower ass? This is madness. Do you realise that Bharat can be abbreviated to "rat". Also, it sounds like "bar-rat". Clearly the use of this term instead of 'India' is overtly part of a plot by some ethnic group that shall remain nameless to make American English speakers think that Indians are all alcoholic vermin! It should be removed from all articles immediately. Paul B (talk) 12:57, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

• Now are you are claiming that "Assam" itself is derogatory because it can be abbreviated to "ass".
• Yes ASS is derogatory to be used as abbreviation.

In its one of the amendments, Republic of India uses a 3-letter abbreviation code for each Republic of India language or script-set such as Assamese, Bengali, Devanagari, Oriya, etc..

The first 3-letter is the first choice provided a concerned State Government and/or amendments committee itself does/do not object.

Therefore, for the following languages the abbreviations shown, for example, should have been good.

• Assamese - ASS (see English dictionary for ass meaning, derogatory)
• Bengali - BEN (In several Indian languages BEN holds the meaning a species of Frog, derogatory)
• Devanagari - DEV (Good, no derogatory meaning)
• Oriya - ORI (Good, no derogatory meaning)

But in the amendment the following were used:

• Assamese - ASM
• Bengali - BNG
• Devanagari - DEV
• Oriya - ORI

I am hoping I have managed to explain user Paul B regarding ASS and BEN usage by Government of Assam, Bengal and Republic of India.

For a country name, India uses a 2-letter or 3-letter abbreviation.

Here too Republic of India do not have a history to use any abbreviation that could lead to derogatory meaning.

• Bhārata or Bharat - BH (2-letter) or BHA (3-letter)

Both abbreviations are great, especially BHA stands for BHAGYA and the word is found in Indian National Anthem as well.

So, I do not think user Paul B or any Ahom or any American will be able to persuade any Indian including Republic of India government to choose different abbreviation for Bharat.

• Is the upper ass better than the lower ass?
• May I suggest user Paul B to utilize above explained information and then think as if he is an Indian, then ask the question -forgive me but I didn't mean to imply dumb ass.
• Clearly the use of this term instead of 'India' is overtly part of a plot by some ethnic group
• India is used in English while Bharat is used both in National language as well as state languages – user Paul B shall ask Republic of India why they have 2 different names for their country (I do not have an answer why).

• Then why Ahom people loves the word Assam?
• Average Ahom people believe that the word Assam is from the word Ahom.

Since greater undivided Kamarupa or Kamrup is politically inside the state of Assam, the indigenous minorities out there do not have choice but to embrace the nomenclature imposed by Ahom administrations.

Hoping my explanation helps, appreciat it very much!

130.65.109.101 (talk) 22:47, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Why there is lack of HISTORY on LOWER ASSAM after Pala Dynasty

It is very surprising that the article Lower Assam contain no historical information after Pala dynasty. What is the reason? Why there is no mention of any historical events, when Lower Assam was ruled by Koch dynasty and later by Ahom Dynasty. Why there is no mention of Mughal invasions in Assam? I must say a significant and important part of history of Lower Assam is missing. Even the great works of Sankardev and Madhavdev and the importance of Satras or Vaishnava monastries are also not mentioned here.Lachitbarphukan (talk) 12:10, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

• None such material or great work of the great people of Kamarupa shall be written under this topic Lower Assam.

• One shall not push Ahom agenda on Kamarupa or present Western Assam. Wikipedia is wrong place for such activities.

Mussal (talk) 18:24, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

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