Talk:Lust, Caution (novella)

The English title of the novella

I thought the more "official" English title of the novella is Spy Ring (see here)... Can anyone confirm that?--Ivy ST 07:29, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

I do not know about the "more 'official'" comment, but the only reference to Spy Ring title I find is on the website you've already referenced to, which is a blog. It's a interesting assertion, i.e., that the Lust, Caution is a literal translation of what should have been titled Spy Ring. But it's an assertion by a blogger. I can't find yet a secondary confirmation. Everything on the web is that the movie is based on the short story of the same name, meaning Lust, Caution. The only reference to the story actually being called Spy Ring comes from only one blog, from what I can tell. See this web site. If this source calls the book Lust, Caution, well. To be continued, I guess. --RossF18 02:52, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and an english version of the website provided by IvyST above is this. --RossF18 02:54, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Sorry I shouldn't have said that it's more "official"; I only meant to say that it was the original English title when the story was first published. I'm not sure what you mean by "it's an assertion by a blogger"--you mean because of that, the assertion isn't authoritative or reliable enough? But I suppose you must already know that Roland Soong is the administrator of Eileen Chang’s estate, and his parents were Chang's close friends. Well whatever, this is just a minor thing.--Ivy ST 06:45, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

I may be missing something here, but how can it be "the original English title when the story was first published" (in English I assume) when this 2007 publication is the first publication of the novel in English and it was titled Lust, Caution. If there was a previous publication in English, could you find it and verify that it's, in fact, the same story. Also, yes I know that the blogger appeared to be Roland Soong, the administer of Eileen Chang's estate, and I guess his points do carry more weight than a point by another bloger, but unless we can get actual evidence of what he says is true, the only thing we could ever put on Wikipedia is something like Roland Soong asserts that this novel was previously titled as.... You are welcome to make that change, but until we can find another person saying this or maybe this book on Amazon.com being previously called Spy Ring, I don't think that it's a very verified claim, even if made by Roland Soong. Pardon the poor analogy, but we often need actual verification even when a president says something. --RossF18 12:00, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Update 1

See this website: EastSouthWestNorth which took note of the above discussion. The page notes that:

"The blogger Roland Soong possesses an English-language typewritten manuscript titled "The Spy Ring" by Eileen Chang. The manuscript lists "R.M. McCarthy (U.S. Information Service)" as the contact person and that would date it circa 1955 or before. McCarthy was Eileen Chang's boss at the U.S. Information Service during that period. In late 1955, Eileen Chang moved to the United States and acquired Mary Rodell as her agent for all her later manuscripts." The website also notes that "the contemporary translation of <Lust, Caution> by Julia Lovell" and the Roland Soong's English-language typewritten manuscript are "not quite the same story, is it? A lot changed between <The Spy Ring> in 1955 or before versus <Lust, Caution> as it ultimately appeared in 1977. The more interesting story is how and why the changes occurred. <The Spy Ring> had never been published before. Those details will be revealed in full detail in a number of other venues. And you should be surprised to find that it has to do with the politics at the time ...."

The website note ends there. That clarifies the issue a bit, and the only question I would have is whether the 1977 publication was in Mandarin or some other language. Also, the type written manuscript in Roland Soong's possession has the title "The Spy Ring" written in black ink, as opposed to typed. The typed title is in what I assume to be Mandarin, so I'm wondering if we can verify whether that text matches to the handwritten "Spy Ring" title above it and if it does, than I see no problems with perhaps mentioning that the early draft of the "Lust, Caution" was called "Spy Ring" because as the website points out, the most recent 2007 translation by Julia Lovell (Anchor Books (September 4, 2007) ISBN: 0307387445) is a bit different from the "Spy Ring" most often cited as being the original version possessed by Roland Soong.--RossF18 (talk) 03:47, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Update 2

Also, there this passage from filmfocus.com that might be added to the article which confirms the 1977 publication and the likelihood of early drafts, one of which might have had a different name (i.e., Spy Ring):

Chang was never a productive writer, and she wrote only a handful of works in the last thirty years of her career, including "Lust, Caution". The story's first draft was written as early the 1950s, but it was not published till 1977. Allegedly based on a true story of the woman spy Zheng Pingru (1918-1940), "Lust, Caution" nevertheless drew controversy thanks to a biographical subtext: it seems to project Chang's own wartime experience as a collaborator's lover. Chang would have scorned any such guesswork, though, as she knew only too well the illusory theatrics of life.

and see this from Asian Review of Books.com which sites the 1983 publication:

It's an absorbing story but LUST. CAUTION is no easy read in English. The 10,000 words have no chapter breaks and intense, undiluted, almost painful word economy. Doubtless the squeeze is intentional. Writing started in the 1950s, following Eileen Chang's divorce from her husband (more on him later), but the story published only in 1983, in Taiwan. Ang Lee: "She (Chang) revised the story for years -- for decades -- returning to it as a criminal might return to the scene of a crime, or as a victim might reenact a trauma reaching for pleasure only by varying and reimagining the pain."

and finally see this from Shenzhen Daily which sites 1978 as publication year:

According to Chen, it took Chang more than 20 years, from 1951 or ‘53 through 1977, to complete her 10,000-Chinese-word psychological fiction, which revolves around a female Chinese student bent on killing a powerful political figure who collaborated with invading Japanese forces during World War II.

Since it was first published in 1978 in Taiwan, the short novel had been neglected by both critics and readers worldwide until it was picked up by Taiwan-born director Lee.

The point, I think, is that it appears that it was first published as early as 1977 as "Lust, Caution," not "Spy Ring." --RossF18 (talk) 03:56, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Update 3

Finally, there is this posting found at East South West North:

The <Lust, Caution> Charity Premiere (09/23/2007) A complimentary ticket from HKU JMSC admitted me to the premiere of <Lust, Caution>. The event was a charity premiere presented by Salvatore Ferragamo and I got to see Ang Lee, Tang Wei and Wang Leehom from afar.

It is known that my father had given the English-language name of <Spy Ring> to this short story. However, the film is being presented in the literal translation of <Lust, Caution>. The reason why my father choose <Spy Ring> was that the story included a ring of amateur spies and the critical moment in the film depended on a diamond ring. While the title <Spy Ring> might be literally interesting, it is not good marketing strategy because of title confusion. Instead, <Lust, Caution> is a unique proposition. After all, Ang Lee won an Oscar with the seemingly incomprehensible title of <Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon>.

When the premiere guests were invited into the screening rooms, they were asked to turn in their mobile telephones for safekeeping. In return, they got a receipt which would allow them to retrieve their mobile telephones when they leave.

If this is really the child of Roland Soong posting this, then it appears that Roland Soong himself choose the title Spy Ring, which would explain the handwritten "Spy Ring" above the title in the draft in his possession most recently published in Sky magazine I think. So, that still leaves me wondering what the original title was intented to be by Eileen Chang, not Roland Soong. It would appear to be "Lust, Caution" or "Caution: Lust," as more correctly translated.--RossF18 (talk) 04:15, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Spoiler

The main page has to much of a spoiler "However, she really falls in love with him, and just before her comrades try to kill him she warns him. He escapes and has the whole group executed, including Mak." I'm glad I never read that before watching the movie. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.152.249.161 (talk) 05:50, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

This is not a fan site, but an encyclopedia that lists all of the information, spoiler or no spoiler. Books are described in detail regardless of spoilers. --RossF18 (talk) 17:51, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Blog Cite

Please do not cite to blogs, for they are not authoritative and can be written by anyone with no outside verification or submission processes to verify the information. In addition, the Mandarin laguage blog is not condusive to being verified by the editors in an English language encyclopedia.--RossF18 (talk) 17:51, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

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