Talk:Macedonians (ethnic group)/Archive 15

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Removal of the racist and nationalist term: sllavomaqedonas

Hi Ehrlich91, Bjankuloski06 and Local hero, recently i came across comments on Albanian Wikipedia in regards to removing the offensive, nationalist and racist term sllavomaqedonas. I agree wholeheartedly, and have over the years been proactive in doing that from changing multiple article pages using that term [3] to going through articles from time to time in purging them when it is used as i did recently [4]. The infobox template is an issue, as pointed out by Ehrlich91. As some of you are administrators an Macedonian Wikipedia how would i go about changing that on the main template [5] (i am not good with template issues -advice much appreciated)? Also if it means doing it one by one regarding changes to articles i am willing to do that too. Albanian Wikipedia should not be a place to promote the nationalism and fringe views of other countries. Best.Resnjari (talk) 14:07, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

@Resnjari: It take time to find all of the infoboxes and fixing them, but firstly I don`t see it any cooperation from Albanian Wikipedians to do so. --Ehrlich91 (talk) 19:04, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
@Ehrlich91:, i know which infobox it is and also i am here. I just need advice on how to change it on the main template without screwing up the template. Then over a fortnight i will go through all the village articles and change them. It should rid Alb wiki of the remaining articles that have the term. Best.Resnjari (talk) 02:31, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
Update: @Ehrlich91: i asked an admin who has expertise with infoboxes, and it should be fixed soon. Thereafter it will take me a few weeks or so to implement the changes. Apart from the settlement Infobox template, have you detected uses of sllavomaqedonas on any other templates in Alb. Wiki? If so inform me. I want this matter taken care of as soon as possible. Best.Resnjari (talk) 05:32, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
@Resnjari: As I point out on your Village Pump, also template {lang-mk} use Sllavomaqedonas term. So far, only these two templates I found out. --Ehrlich91 (talk) 19:39, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
@Ehrlich91:, this matter will be resolved soon. Liridon who is an admin on Ab wiki and has good knowledge of templates will run a bot to fix it. What the bot won't cover, i'll do the rest manually. I'll keep you posted of developments. Best.Resnjari (talk) 05:46, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
@Ehrlich91: Update: Liridon made the neutral changes i suggested to the infobox and applied it in whole to all articles having that infobox through a bot. In the village pages (over a 1000 from memory), changes to wiki links in articles are going to be done manually so this may take a fortnight or two depending on time -hope it doesn't though. Best.Resnjari (talk) 14:11, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
@Resnjari: Thank you for notification and your efforts. You can post your updates on your Village Pump, as this issue is relevant to Albanian Wikipedia, not English one. As this is systematical issue, you have a lot of work, and it is understandable. Although I can notice that you still have templates with forementioned term (here). Best, --Ehrlich91 (talk) 18:39, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
@Ehrlich91:, will inform Liridon on the mk language template issue. Should be resolved soon. When i started this thread, i did't see it at the Alb wiki Village Pump section. Its ok it being here though as English is used too and someone may have noticed something and could cite it here as well. All good. Best.Resnjari (talk) 04:45, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
 Done Good news to report @Ehrlich91:, all outstanding issues with templates have been resolved, especially by Liridon through use of his bots. What could not be done through that avenue, though it took a long time i did manually. Articles bearing these terms in their content have been removed replaced and also FYROM related terms in Albanian. Links have been corrected. A few lone redirects exist for a few pages, but those names are not the main page name and nor are they names used for article links, so the situation is like English wiki has with redirects on those articles. Best.Resnjari (talk) 18:37, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

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This is ridiculous

This is purely ridiculous... The Albanians are laughing at this... such as austrians as an ethnic group... there are so much relatives, cousins, of the macedonian citizens that will tell you that they, their grandparents and grate-grandparents etc. are Bulgarians, macedonian is just a geographical group, "macedonians" as ethnicity is serbian fabrication and later ComIntern's. See Serbianisation I'm Thracians becuase of geography not ethnicity... these balkan groups are romanized about 2 millennia ago.

What do you want to say? That Macedonians in FYRoM don't consider themselves an ethnic group different from Bulgarians? --Yomal Sidoroff-Biarmskii (talk) 13:15, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 July 2018

Macedonians are also know as Macedonian Bulgarians. Kris2112 (talk) 10:48, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Danski454 (talk) 11:31, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

Greek

please change ((Greek)) to ((Greece|Greek))

 Done L293D (☎ • ✎) 14:08, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

Help request

Please can someone remove Slavo Macedonians in the intro because it is not sourced and it is just a variation of Slavic Macedonian which means the same thing, Thank you.

I have provided a source instead. The term seems to have quite a history, and I'm more doubtful about "Slavic Macedonians", which comes from a translated Russian text where it's unclear whether this is indeed intended to refer to the ethnic group or rather the Slavic subset of the population of the Republic of Macedonia. Huon (talk) 23:07, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Help request

Please can someone remove Slavic Macedonians in the intro. That was copy and pasted through Russian language. A user was not that keen on Slavic Macedonians.

 Not done. It wasn't copy-pasted, and despite my lack of "keenness" I decided to leave it in place. Have you checked whether that's an alternative name for this ethnic group or just a one-off in the English edition of Pravda? Huon (talk) 22:06, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

Help request

Can we rename the first two subtitles: from "Before Settlement" into "Ancient Period" and from "Origins and Settlement" into "Middle Ages". That would align this article with the

Main article: History of the Macedonians (ethnic group)

GStojanov (talk) 14:16, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

Name

Name section is wrong. Greece did not do propaganda to connect Slavs with ancient Macedonia. Greece tried to do the opposite actually Xylo kai Gyali (talk) 11:21, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

Actually there are reliable sources opposing your POV. You probably think about the Greek policy in last 50 years. Jingiby (talk) 11:25, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

The policy of Megali Idea cannot be defined as propaganda as this is not an objective term. Xylo kai Gyali (talk) 21:22, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

Alternative names

This article lists four alternative names for Macedonians: 1. Macedonians, 2. Macedonian Slavs, 3. Slavic Macedonians and 4. Slavo-Macedonians. The 3. and 4. are from unreliable/inconsistent sources or has been used historically, but they are not in use any more. I did some analytics at google trends, taking the use of these terms in the previous 5 years, and here are the results:

https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&q=Macedonians,%22Slavic%20Macedonians%22

https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&q=Macedonians,%22Slavo-Macedonians%22

https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&q=Macedonians,%22Macedonian%20Slavs%22

Average daily use: Macedonians - 47, Slavic Macedonians - 0, Slavo-Macedonians - 0, Macedonian Slavs 0 zero most of the time with occasional spikes, averaging more than 0 and less than 1 per day.

I propose we remove the 3. Slavic Macedonians and 4. Slavo-Macedonians. They are not used at all.

I also propose we remove 2. Macedonian Slavs. The term is used rarely (less than 100 searches in the last 5 years), inconsistently, and it is offensive to the ethnic Macedonians. GStojanov (talk) 17:37, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

4 should be removed. I don't think both 2 and 3 are needed, but probably one of them should stay as "Slav/Slavic" is sometimes used to disambiguate. --Local hero talk 18:29, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
Macedonian Slavs for example was used even today by the European Council on Foreign Relations-Check here. Jingiby (talk) 19:35, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
Jingiby, the article you are citing is a commentary. There is a clear disclaimer associated with this commentary: "The European Council on Foreign Relations does not take collective positions. This commentary, like all publications of the European Council on Foreign Relations, represents only the views of its authors." GStojanov (talk) 12:42, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
I agree. Here is my proposal: "The Macedonians (Macedonian: Македонци, translit. Makedonci), are a nation and an ethnic group native to the region of Macedonia. They speak the Macedonian language, a South Slavic language, so Slav/Slavic Macedonians is sometimes used to disambiguate." GStojanov (talk) 12:51, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
We scrap 2, 3, 4. Its POV and the sentence is a relic of prior to the Prespa agreement and the product of denalists and so on. The current sentence in the lede should read something like: The Macedonians (Macedonian: Македонци, translit. Makedonci), also known as Macedonian Slavs, Slavic Macedonians, or Slavo-Macedonians, are a South Slavic ethnic group native to the region of Macedonia. They speak the Macedonian language, a South Slavic language. Also like this we keep the parts about the Slavic heritage without it recycling nationalist, racist polemics or POV that is common in a certain country in the extreme south of the Balkans.Resnjari (talk) 21:20, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
I think this works well. --Local hero talk 07:09, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
 Done Resnjari (talk) 22:55, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
This looks much better now. It is in line with the similar articles for Croats or Slovenes. I think we should add "a nation " to the text so it will read "Macedonians (Macedonian: Македонци, translit. Makedonci) are a nation and a South Slavic ethnic group native to the region of Macedonia." That would make it fully in line with most other articles about the modern nations and ethnic groups. GStojanov (talk) 12:58, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

Source failed verification

I could not find anything in the source (neither the supplementary material) which backups the ordering proposed in the statement:

"This study itself calculated genetic distance by SNP data of the multiple autosomes and ranked most proximal to Macedonians again the same group, i.e. the Bulgarians, the Serbs, Montenegrins, Romanians, Gagauzes, then Macedonian Greeks, etc.[72] "

I'm not even sure whether there is an ordering here, the paragraph is poorly written and confusing. Maybe it just needs to be more clear. Figure 2a in the source (PCA plot) indicates a different ranking along the lines of Romanian = Gagauzes > Bulgarians > Montenegrins > Greek Macedonians > Serbians, with respect to autosomal similarity with ethnic Macedonians. The tables in the supplementary text are also contrary to the paragraph in the Wikipedia article.

I suggest clarification is needed and making the paragraph more respectable to the original source is desirable. Maybe also disclaiming that there is a high correlation with autosomal similarity and geography (Fig 5) adds better scientific merit --120.21.228.106 (talk) 06:06, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

efn consistency

Need to implement efn to clean up the cluster of references in the Identities section, specifically "is seen to be a comparatively newly emergent one.[73][74][75][76][77][78]" --120.21.228.106 (talk) 06:34, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

Macedonians?

Should they not be called North Macedonians? Einserschüler (talk) 15:37, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

Please read the first paragraph of the article. OhNoitsJamie Talk 15:56, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

Upper bound for ethnic Macedonians in Greece should be 200,00 or 150,000

according to sources such as [1] and many more. See Macedonian language#Geographical distribution#Greece — Preceding unsigned comment added by 120.21.68.236 (talk) 06:12, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

Speaking Macedonian does not a Macedonian make. Most people who speak Macedonian in Greece have a Greek national consciousness, as shown in Slavic speakers of Greek Macedonia and Macedonia (Greece)#Ethnic Macedonian minority and language. --Michail (blah) 08:55, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Jacques Bacid, Ph.D. Macedonia through the Ages. Columbia University, 1983.

Suggestion for name change via poll

I trully believe a new poll should be opened dedicated to changing the ethnic group known as "Macedonians" to "North Macedonians", the old poll, opened and closed in 2005 is too old and was made in a period the now Republic of North Macedonia was named just Republic of Macedonia, so rightfully the inhabitants were characterized as ethnic "Macedonians". With the signing of the Prespa Agreement though, the country name changed and the rightful name of the inhabitants of North Macedonia should change to "North Macedonians" if of course a new poll approves it. Thanks for your time. Δημήτρηss (talk) 15:42, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for your time as well. But it's obvious that you haven't read the Prespa Agreement or the Wikipedia policy that we have on the name of Macedonia and its related parties. So, please take your time and go over this. Cheers! — Tom(T2ME) 12:54, 22 August 2019 (UTC)
Hello Δημήτρηss. We have already discussed this recently here. GStojanov (talk) 13:26, 22 August 2019 (UTC)
This is a useless thread that veers toward WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. Not only has the matter been resolved in via the Prespa agreement, so has the Wiki community for the English language part of the encyclopedia project.Resnjari (talk) 12:42, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request

In the culture headline under the filmography section the first Macedonian movie to be nominated for an Oscar [1] also included by the New York Times in the "1,000 Best Films Ever Made" [2] film "Before the Rain" (1994) should be mentioned — Preceding unsigned comment added by BenjaminVolcano (talk • contribs) 13:51, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

 Done It's now mentioned in the Cinema and theater section. --Trialpears (talk) 06:54, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ [1]
  2. ^ [2]

Disambiguation box

Knowingly running the risk of causing a major uproar, I tried to edit the disambiguation box, adding a reference to the Macedonians (Greeks) which was after a few minutes reverted. There are two major groups self identifying as Macedonians, the ones in Macedonia (Greece) and those in the Republic of North Macedonia, the Macedonians (ethnic group). The Prespa Agreement signed by the two countries, now a part of the international right, grants both parties the right to do so, however the Greeks have the right to historical continuity with the ancient Macedonians and the latter admit their south slavic heritage. In the current disambiguation box about the Macedonians (ethnic group) there is a reference to the ancient Macedonians. As I believe that this is kind of misleading and confusing, I would either suggest that a reference to the Macedonians (Greeks) is added (as it is the other prominent population group in the wider modern geographic region of Macedonia) OR that the reference to the ancient Macedonians is removed and kept only at the full disambiguation page listing all Macedonians and at the Macedonians (Greeks) page so as to denote the cultural relation and continuity between those two peoples. The current placement implies that there is a relation between the Macedonians (ethnic group) and the ancient Macedonians, which holds no ground. Vslslzrds (talk) 22:05, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

The current placement implies that there is a relation between the Macedonians (ethnic group) and the ancient Macedonians, which holds no ground. I do not think so. In any case, the wording of that is based on community consensus. You need a new strong consensus to make changes. Ktrimi991 (talk) 22:25, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
Again, Wikipedia is not bound by a bilateral treaty of such, especially ridiculous clauses which involve one group having ancient heritage, while the other doesn't. Beat of the tapan (talk) 03:56, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

@Ktrimi991 Thanks for the reply. Could you please provide a link to that discussion page or any other page where the guidelines and this specific wording were agreed upon? @ Beat of the tapan The Prespa Agreement is signed under the UN auspices, therefore it's not just a bilateral treaty but part of the international law. All I was suggesting was that we either include Macedonians (Greeks) in the disambiguation box as a) there has until recently been a significant dispute on who gets to call themselves Macedonians which has been resolved, b) numerically they are the other prominent but totally unrelated group in the region with that same name and c) especially since we include ancient Macedonians in the disambiguation section who according to most scientific evidence and Wikipedia were a Greek people whether you find it ridiculous or not OR that we altogether remove ancient Macedonians from the disambiguation box and just keep the for other uses part for those not finding what they are looking for when searching for Macedonians Vslslzrds (talk) 08:02, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

Whether or not the treaty is international, bilateral, multilateral, without consensus we are not bound to it's contents. In regard to the ancient Macedonians, the current consensus on Wikipedia is that they were indeed ancient Hellens, but this does not support your argument since you are relying on implications. As for including Greek Macedonians on the disambiguation, I personally don't find this necessary since it's not a numbers game and Greek Macedonians are already included in the 'See Also' section. Beat of the tapan (talk) 00:45, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

Medieval and ancient nations that settled in Macedonia

I propose adding the additional sentence to the following

Apart from Slavs and late Byzantines, Kuver's Avar Pannonian "Bulgars"[50] – a mix of Roman Christians, Bulgars and Avars – settled the Keramissian plain (Pelagonia) around Bitola in the late 7th century.[a] Later pockets of settlers included Magyars in the 9th century,[55] Armenians in the 10th–12th centuries,[56] Cumans in the 11th–13th centuries,[57] and Saxon miners in the 14th and 15th centuries.[58] Although, the lasting cultural and linguistic impact of these groups on the region varies from being negligible to virtually non-existent.

Something along those lines. A reference would be great too, but this addition is pretty trivial. --Beat of the tapan (talk) 03:32, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

Probably true, but far from trivial. No way a sentence like this can be added without a source. And it would in any case have to be without the WP:PEACOCK word "Although". --T*U (talk) 10:26, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

Major changes should be brought up in Talk page for consensus

Being a contentious article, I think that any major changes should be brought up in the talk page for consensus, like I myself have been doing. Especially seeing recent influx Pro-Bulgarian information such as https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Macedonians_(ethnic_group)&diff=919737255&oldid=917937672.

I'm sure taking such an approach will benefit the neutrality of the page Beat of the tapan (talk) 05:04, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

Year Period Acquired citizenships Position
2002-2012[1] 22.01.2002-15.01.2012 44211 1
2012[2] 23.01.2012-22.01.2013 8185 1
2013[3] 23.01.2013-22.01.2014 4388 1
2014[4] 01.01.2014-31.12.2014 1874 1
2015[5] 01.01.2015-31.12.2015 4315 1
2016[6] 01.01.2016-31.12.2016 6196 1
2017[7] 22.01.2017-31.12.2017 1150 1
2018[8] 01.01.2018-31.12.2018 3619 1
Total 01.01.2001-31.12.2018 75000+ 1
That above is the official data from Bulgarian presidency and from Bulgarian Citizenship Commission for the period 2002 - 2018, i.e. over 75,000. Keep in mind that during 2019 until now ca. 2000 people from NM have received Bulgarian citizenship. Jingiby (talk) 06:56, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
Also over 50,000 another Macedonians, for now are waiting for Bulgarian citizenship because of certain inconsistencies in the legal base. Jingiby (talk) 08:17, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
This academic publication: The politics of Bulgarian citizenship: national identity, democracy and other uses by D Smilov and E Ileva, published in the book Citizenship Policies in the New Europe, Amsterdam University Press, from 2009, pp. 211-247, reveals that this special kind of procedure for dual citizenship is granted only for persons with Bulgarian origin.
On the last valid census in 2002 there were 1,297,981 (64,17%) ethnic Macedonians in the Republic. 1,297,981 x 6% = 77,879 people, i.e. per WP:CALC that means ca. 6% from the ethnic Macedonians in NM have Bulgarian citizenship and per data above 53,000 are waiting to be granted, that means additionaly 4% have applied for Bulgarian citizenship. Practically ca. 10% from the ethnic Macedonians in NM have presented a certificate of Bulgarian origin, and documents evidencing the existence of at least one Bulgarian ascendant. In fact they declare formally Bulgarian origin in special declaration before the Bulgarian authorities, and their signatures on these declarations must be notarized and provide a documents about the Bulgarian origin of some his ascendants. Jingiby (talk) 09:42, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
Here are links to the official site of the President of Bulgaria with the annual data for people granted with Bulgarian citizenship on which is based the table above: data on the period 2002-2012; data on the period 2012-2018. Jingiby (talk) 10:47, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
By the way these issues have been discussed and have been described in the article Bulgarians in North Macedonia, which is more then 10 years old. This is not an influx from Pro-Bulgarian information, but an issue from the early 2000s, which is in constant development. Jingiby (talk) 11:05, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
Also Academic publications have discussed this phenomena and its roots:
It is not a news that even the founder of the prominent VMRO-DPMNE and formet PM amd vice-President of the country - Ljubčo Georgievski has Bulgarian citizenship. Jingiby (talk)
Only during 2018 more than 10,000 persons from Macedonia have applied for Bulgarian citizenship, Bulgarian Justice Minister Tsetska Tsacheva said, addressing Parliament during Question Time. Jingiby (talk) 12:19, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
I have provided a link to an article published a few years ago in Macedonian media. It claims, based on data from Eurostat, that in recent years more than 100,000 Macedonians have acquired foreign citizenship and most of them have applied for Bulgarian one. The Macedonian Government's position on the issue was also expressed. It was alarmed by this trend.
Macedonian IT-media has claimed, based on official Bulgarian data from the Presidency, that at the end of 2017, over 71,000 Macedonians have Bulgarian citizenship. Jingiby (talk) 13:22, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
Below is a link to an article in the Magazine Правен свят - Legal World. The article has extracted data from a report of an inspection carried out by the Ministry of Justice at the Agency for Bulgarians Abroad on the instructions of the Prime Minister. The inspection is in relation with some irregularities at the commision's work. Per the report of the Ministry in the period between January 1, 2001, and November 1, 2018, exactly 74,881 Macedonians were granted Bulgarian citizenship. Link. Jingiby (talk) 15:48, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Предоставяне на българско гражданство, Справка за преиода 22.01.2002-15.01.2012 г. (Bulgarian citizenship Information for the period 22.01.2002-15.01.2012 year)
  2. ^ Доклад за дейността на КБГБЧ за 2012-2013 година (Report on the activities of the CBCBA for 2012-2013 year), p. 7
  3. ^ Доклад за дейността на КБГБЧ за периода 23.01.2013 – 22.01.2014 година (Report on the activities of the CBCBA for the period 23.01.2013–22.01.2014 year), p. 6
  4. ^ Годишен доклад за дейността на КБГБЧ за периода 01.01.2014-31.12.2014 година (Annual report on the activities of the CBCBA for the period 01.01.2014-31.12.2014 year), p. 5
  5. ^ Годишен доклад за дейността на КБГБЧ за периода 01.01.2015-31.12.2015 година (Annual report on the activities of the CBCBA for the period 01.01.2015-31.12.2015 year), p. 6
  6. ^ Годишен доклад за дейността на КБГБЧ за периода 01.01.2016-31.12.2016 година (Annual report on the activities of the CBCBA for the period 01.01.2016-31.12.2016 year), p. 6
  7. ^ Доклад за дейността на комисията по българско гражданство за периода 14 януари – 31 декември 2017 г. (Activity Report of the Bulgarian Citizenship Commission for the period 14 January - 31 December 2017)
  8. ^ Доклад за дейността на комисията по българско гражданство за периода 01 януари – 31 декември 2018 г. (Activity Report of the Bulgarian Citizenship Commission for the period 01 January - 31 December 2018)

Somewhat relevant past discussion at Talk:Bulgarians_in_North_Macedonia#Citizens. If this paragraph is included, it should be noted that this is done largely for economic reasons (EU passport). --Local hero talk 21:54, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

Distinguish, differentiate or separate.

What the source says: However, it is more important to say openly that a great deal of these anti-Bulgarian sentiments result from the need to distinguish between the Bulgarian and the Macedonian nations. Macedonia could confirm itself as a state with its own past, present and future only through differentiating itself from Bulgaria. What is the problem of the sentence: "Only through such negationist separation". How to change it to be NPOV, instead of repeatedly to delete it. Jingiby (talk) 08:11, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

Well the source doesn't say negationist separation, so "Only through differentiating itself from Bulgaria," would be more accurate per this source. --Local hero talk 20:30, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
I agree with User:Local hero. 'Negationist' is a strong label that users should refrain from using, unless it is directly mentioned and used in the correct context by a valid source.Beat of the tapan (talk) 22:20, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

Test

Test RodenKrai (talk) 13:12, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

Please delete this. I was having problems when posting the first time. RodenKrai (talk) 13:31, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

Labels for population during the Ottoman era

I think the term "Slavic Speakers" is more adequate than terms such as "Slavs" and "Slavic Population". For one I doubt there was any common self designation as "Slavs" in Ottoman Macedonia, two, given ethnic and linguistic fluidity in the Balkans and Macedonia, I think the term "Slavic Speakers" is better suited, unless explicitly specified by a source. --Beat of the tapan (talk) 02:07, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

The article contains missing, incomplete and/or misleading citations.

1. The article states "During this period, the first expressions of Macedonism by certain Macedonian intellectuals occurred in Belgrade, Sofia, Istanbul, Thessaloniki and St. Petersburg." => Please provide a citation or remove.

2. The article state: "In the 1860s, according to Petko Slaveykov, some young intellectuals from Macedonia were claiming that they are not Bulgarians, but they are rather Macedonians, descendants of the Ancient Macedonians.[111]" However when reading the source [111] we can see that Petko Slaveykov actually states: "We have many times heard from the Macedonists that they are not Bulgarians but Macedonians, descendants of the Ancient Macedonians, and we have always waited to hear some proofs of this, but we have never heard them. The Macedonists have never shown us the bases of their attitude. They insist on their Macedonian origin, which they cannot prove in any satisfactory way." => Petko slaveykov dismisses the claim of the Macedonists due to lack of any proof whatsoever. Please correct the citation and include the full text so the meaning is not misrepresented.

3.The article states: "In a letter written to the Bulgarian Exarch in February 1874 Petko Slaveykov reports that discontent with the current situation “has given birth among local patriots to the disastrous idea of working independently on the advancement of their own local dialect and what’s more, of their own, separate Macedonian church leadership.”[112]" This citation is incomplete and even does not equal to the text in the original source. In the original source [112] Petko Slaveykov writes: "The one-sided, at first glance, solution to the question in favour of the Danube and Thracian Bulgarians alone further encouraged their discontentment, and by ignoring the circumstances which led to this not entirely satisfactory solution to the question, the said discontentment has easily turned into mistrust towards those working on the question and has given birth among local patriots to the disastrous idea of working independently on the advancement of their own local dialect and what’s more, of their own, individual Macedonian hierarchy — Bulgarian — idea, unfortunately reinforced, as far as I could hear, by the excessive zeal of one of our own bishops,[3] who in his desire to be useful and make use of this, imperceptibly, and perhaps deliberately, encouraged it even more and allowed the emergence and spread of these disastrous ideas side by side with the awakening of the people in these lands."

4. The citation [113]: "The activities of these people were also registered by Stojan Novaković[113]" This citation is from the year 1906, which is not the 19th century, but the 20th century. => Please remove or put into its own paragraph 20th century.

5. The citation [114]: "The nascent Macedonian nationalism, illegal at home in the theocratic Ottoman Empire, and illegitimate internationally, waged a precarious struggle for survival against overwhelming odds: in appearance against the Ottoman Empire, but in fact against the three expansionist Balkan states and their respective patrons among the great powers.[114]" This citation is from the year 2008, which is not the 19th century, but the 21th century. => Please remove or put into its own paragraph 21th century.



[111] The Macedonian question: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Translation:The_Macedonian_question [112] Letter from P.R. Slaveykov to the Bulgarian Exarch (1874):https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Translation: A_letter_from_P.R._Slaveykov_to_the_Bulgarian_Exarch [113] Балканска питања и мање историјско-политичке белешке о Балканском полуострву 1886–1905. Стојан Новаковић, Београд, 1906. [114] Rossos, Andrew (2008). Macedonia and the Macedonians: A History (PDF). Hoover Institution Press. ISBN 978-0817948832. Archived from the original (PDF) on 28 January 2019. Retrieved 28 January 2019. [115] RodenKrai (talk) 13:30, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

URL correction:

[112] https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Translation:A_letter_from_P.R._Slaveykov_to_the_Bulgarian_Exarch RodenKrai (talk) 22:47, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

These are ridiculous nitpicks, for example, Slaveykov demanding proof of Macedonians being different to Bulgarians is beyond the topic of self-designation and the founding of the Macedonian nation. By the way, some of these statements don't require citations as other cited material in the article makes it obvious. Beat of the tapan (talk) 04:05, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

Reverting to my edit of 19:45, 10 November 2019‎

Dear everyone, people have consistently undid my edit even though it is well sourced and balanced, and the current version contains severely highly inaccurate and biased claims. No one has given me any reasons for undoing my revisions and consistently engaged in an edit war with me. Please outline if you have any issues with the introduction as outlined in the Apples&Manzanas 19:45, 10 November 2019‎ version....otherwise I will make the change. Apples&Manzanas (talk) 20:43, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

Are you joking? Your version is super biased actually, and no, it's not going to happen. Wikipedia is not a nationalistic blog. You are claimed sources for Skopjans are either Greek or based on how Greeks commonly refer to the Macedonian people (it's not that they are known like that worldwide). Same with Slavomacedonians, it's not a common term for the ethnic group. And as for the language... I wouldn't know even comment on that, WP:POV at its best and not needed in the lead of the article. — Tom(T2ME) 20:52, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
Hi Tomica, I'll ask that we please discuss this in a respectful tone. I assume based on your previous comment that youre not particularly familiar with the history, and that's okay, i think we all have a part to contribute here. Let me discuss each of your claims:

(A) The word "Skopjans". Regarding your claims of only Greeks calling Macedonians 'Skopjans', this is false, many countries call Macedonians 'Skopjans'. However, I agree that my sources on that were not good enough. Therefore, I agree not to use the term Skopjans until more sources are found. My conclusion: For the moment, i agree with you that Skopjan shouldnt be used until better sources are found. With that said, I totally disagree that Skopjan isnt a commonly used term - please note that you are contradicting very well respected historians such as Robin Lane Fox. I don't have time to dig up sources at the moment, so I'll agree with you for the time being.

(B) "Same with Slavomacedonians". Sorry, that isnt the same at all...Slavomacedonians is often recognised as the best neutral and nonbiased term to call Macedonians. Even many citizens of North Macedonia, such as the Albanian minority, call them Slavomacedonians. Even many slavomacedonians call themselves slavomacedonian (such as the left wing). To quote anthropologist Loring M Danforth in "Claims to Macedonian Identity: The Macedonian Question and the Breakup of Yugoslavia", "Extreme Macedonian nationalists, who are concerned with demonstrating the continuity between ancient and modern Macedonians, deny that they are Slavs and claim to be the direct descendants of Alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonians. The more moderate Macedonian position, generally adopted by better educated Macedonians and publically endorsed by Kiro Gligorov, the first president of the newly independent Republic of Macedonia, is that modern Macedonians have no relation to Alexander the Great, but are a Slavic people whose ancestors arrived in Macedonia in the sixth century AD."

Also, I point out that this isnt just the Greek position, to quote Danforth again: "the Bulgarian government has officially denied the existence of a Macedonian nation, arguing instead that all the Slavs of Macedonia are Bulgarians." In fact, every nation surrounding Macedonia calls the people Slavomacedonians rather than Macedonians (and very often Skopjans too). My conclusion: Slavomacedonians should stay. It's an extremely commonly used and neutral alternative to "macedonian". Wikipedia should be a credible neutral platform, and does not exist to advance Macedonian nationalist propaganda and Macedonian nationalists who hijack these pages.

(C) The language isn't needed in the lede of the article? But the language is already mentioned in the lede of the article. The only thing i did was remove the extreme bias from the article's discussion of the language. If you wish to remove all discussions of the Macedonian language from the lede, then i agree we can do this. But the current discussion of the macedonian language is full of propagandist trash which would be objected to by every country in the region except extreme North Macedonian nationalists. Please note that all i did was add a neutral point of view, I never sided in any of those claims. Conclusion: my edits on the subject of language were totally fine. If you object to any discussion of the language in the lede, then i agree to make that change. But my changes are a vast improvement on the article as it currently stands. And i dont see any issue with my changes anyway. Apples&Manzanas (talk) 21:45, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

No my dear! Your changes were absolutely biased and nationalistic based on your Bulgarian or Greek identity whatever. And everything can be seen from your comments here, so sorry not sorry, but your addition was absolutely controversial and unneeded. PS. you telling me that I am not familiar with history here doesn't make our tone very friendly. So that being said... adios! — Tom(T2ME) 22:00, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
Im neither Bulgarian nor Greek. Im very offended by your remarks. Im a student of history in an english speaking country and i am adding some information that is free from bias to the article that has otherwise been hijacked. I'm trying to discuss this issue in a rational way and im somewhat offended by your previous comment. When I said "I assume you are not familiar with the history", this was based on the comment you had already made, I didnt mean that in a negative way. Once again, I wish to call for us to discuss these matters in a polite mature way, can we please do that? Anyway, as it stands, you have not responded to anything i actually raised in my previous comment so i have to assume that that all stands. Apples&Manzanas (talk) 22:07, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
Re your comment that Even many citizens of North Macedonia, such as the Albanian minority, call them Slavomacedonians, you are absolutely so wrong. Ktrimi991 (talk) 22:10, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
First of all, Im not wrong. Secondly, let's not get lost in minor points of detail of what albanian macedonians say - afterall, that was never part of the edits or article. The reality is that Slavomacedonian is an extremely common alternative to Macedonian. EVEN KIRO GLIGOROV THE FIRST MACEDONIAN PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA USED THE TERM SLAVOMACEDONIAN,“it is inconceivable to think that today’s Slavomacedonians are descendants of Alexander the Great.” Drop this petty nationalism. Im not saying the article should side on which term is better, but a neutral article MUST mention that these terms exist rather than seeking to airbrush facts you dont like away. Please use the talk page to discuss any issues with my proposed revision, but dont just say 'you are wrong' without providing any evidence or reasoning. Wikipedia is not a democracy or popularity contest. In conclusion, the only part i've actually heard a convincing rebuttal to is that the word "Skopjan" wasnt adequately supported by the sources that i provided. I've really tried to engage productively and in good faith, but unfortunately a large number of people seem to wish to use this article to push an agenda. Let's be nice, calm, and work through these issues rationally, yeah? And well, if you don't have any productive responses, then i can't take your opinion into account as an editor. Apples&Manzanas (talk) 01:30, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
I agree the edits are biased. It's fine to mention the Slavomacedonian thing in the prose in the context of "a small ethnic Macedonian minority exists in Greece, where they are known as Slavomacedonians" or something along these lines, but to put it in the lead is a little bit OTT. Just for the record, searching google for "Slavomacedonian" gives only 9,510 results of which the first two are Wikipedia mentions of Slavomacedonian in the context of the naming dispute, one is the Urban Dictionary (!), followed by a few blogs. "Skopjan" gives 9,010 results, mostly blogs and people trolling on Twitter. I would also like to point out that your use of sources is a little bit dubious, because on the matter of "Skopjans" two are Greek sources (so obviously they used Skopjan), and another is an Irish journal reporting that the Greeks call them Skopjans, not using the word Skopjans to describe ethnic Macedonians. The articles you listed for "Slavomacedonians" similarly just report what the Greek state uses. --Michail (blah) 18:10, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
I already agreed that my use of the word "Skopjan" was not properly sourced, and i already agreed that Skopjan should not be added to the article. Regarding your comments about the term "slavomacedonians", I have plenty of reliable non-Greek sources that use this term, I will add more sources. As I pointed out just earlier, even the President of the Republic of Macedonia used the term Slavomacedonian! You can hardly say it is only Greeks who use that term. When i next edit the article, I will make sure to include more sources.Apples&Manzanas (talk) 01:40, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
Just stop this game. Thanks. 04:23, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
Calling something a "game" is not an argument, that's just bullying tactics. Wikipedia works from reliable sources, not from what you want it to say. Apples&Manzanas (talk) 05:51, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
@Apples&Manzanas: - Do not edit the article again adding this stuff. There is clearly no consensus to have it in the article. It will just get reverted. --Michail (blah) 12:04, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
My response So far there appears to be a large amount of consensus around every change that I made except one or two. No one raised any issues the vast majority of changes I made, no one has given any sources to prove me wrong. Regarding the use of the term Slavomacedonian, I agree that there needs to be reliable sources, and not overly focused on Greek sources. Therefore, I think we're in consensus that those changes should be made if more reliable sources can be added. For example, as i pointed out, the president of the republic of macedonia even used the term "slavomacedonian". No one has made any claim that that isnt a reliable source or relevant source. 02:52, 13 November 2019 (UTC)Apples&Manzanas (talk)

Additional sources for the terms slavomacedonian/slavic macedonian/slav macedonian

Here are some reliable sources using the term slavomacedonian, slavic macedonian, and slav macedonian. These are widely used politically neutral terms to distinguish slavic North Macedonians from Macedonians in Greece...Quite clearly, it's very poor form to try and airbrush this history from the wikipedia.

Here are more sources, in addition to the ones from the previous edit:

Im not saying the article should side on which term is better, but a neutral article MUST mention that these terms exist rather than seeking to airbrush facts you dont like away.Apples&Manzanas (talk) 03:19, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

The flaws with your sources;
1. Written by the Bulgarian Dimitar Bechev who has ties to Bulgarian nationalist groups such as IMRO – Bulgarian National Movement
2. Conspiracy theory website with the article being written by the pseudo-intellectual Vladislav B. Sotirović whom carelessly exhibits racism against Macedonians and Albanians
3. Author modifying quotes from politicians to exchange the term "Macedonians" with "Slavic Macedonians" makes the reliability of the source questionable
4. Slavic-Macedonians is used to exemplify what Greeks call ethnic Macedonians, not the authors point of view
5. See (4.)
6. Term is used in the context of historical events that took place in what is now Greek Macedonia, to distinguish the group from other inhabitants in Macedonia
7. Disambiguation between ethnic Albanians and ethnic Macedonians in North Macedonia
8. Please provide the exact details from the source (Edit: I could not find anything, apart from the source elaborating Greek-Australian lobbyists having a failed attempt at imposing the "Slavo-Macedonian" name at an official level)
9. Usage by one politician (outside of Greece) is not enough to justify your cause here
You are really scrapping the bottom of the barrel here, I suggest taking some time away from this article. Beat of the tapan (talk) 09:17, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
Response:
1. You not liking an author does not mean it isnt a reliable source.
2. You not liking an author does not mean it isnt a reliable source.
3. Der Spiegel is a reliable source and your response didnt make sense to me.
4. On re-reading this source, I agree with you here.
5. Nope, this is different to point 4. The author is not quoting here.
6. Are you serious? This source so unambiguously refers to the Macedonian ethnicity as slavic Macedonians. Obviously, ive never claimed that this page shouldnt use the term Macedonian. However, all ive claimed is that Slavic Macedonian should be listed as an alternative.
7. This source unambiguously refers to the Macedonian ethnicity as slavic Macedonians - and it totally proves what i said, that slavic macedonian is an alternative term to macedonian (when discussing the majority ethnic group in North Macedonia, which is what this wikipedia article is about)
8. The source says that the Australian Government officially termed Macedonians from the FYROM as Slav-Macedonians. This is mentioned in the executive summary of the report.
9. "One politician"...He was the first president of the FYROM/republic of macedonia. That's hardly just 'one politician'.
10. Edit: For whatever it's worth, here's another reliable source - the BBC: https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-47258809
11. Edit: another reliable source - the guardian quoting an albanian - once again proving the term is used outside of just greece: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/sep/30/macedonia-to-vote-on-name-change-and-ending-greek-dispute
"You are really scrapping the bottom of the barrel here" ... Firstly, that is a personal attack. Per wikipedia's policies, you should assume good faith. Secondly, no, i found abundant sources to prove my case within minutes. I can easily find more sources, but ive already found so many reliable sources that i cant really see the point. According to you, citing the first president of macedonia, the washington post, der spiegel, al jazeera (all highly respected newspapers), are the bottom of the barrel? No way, theyre the top of the barrel.
"I suggest taking some time away from this article." This is bullying. I'm someone trying to use the talk page to improve the article through discussing a variety of sources, and you're basically like "go away". Very disappointing. I ask that we return to talking about sources, rather than making personal attacks.
Conclusion: There are many reliable sources that list slavomacedonian/slavic macedonian/slav macedonian as alternatives to Macedonian when discussing the majority ethnicity in the republic of north macedonia. As such, the introduction of the article should be edited to read: "Macedonians (Macedonian: Македонци, romanized: Makedonci), also known as Slavomacedonians, Slavic Macedonians or Slav Macedonians, are a nation and a South Slavic ethnic group..." Apples&Manzanas (talk) 11:31, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
I agree with all of what Beat of the tapan said. In response to your criticism of their points:
  1. It's not about not "liking" the author. It's about not using an author with an obvious bias.
  2. See 1.
  3. Der Spiegel is hit-and-miss with its reliability. Some of its journalists are known to make things up. Wikipedia lists it as only partially reliable. This article also includes "Slavic Macedonians" attributed to a quote by Gruevski, which is suspicious and indicative of alteration of an original quote.
  4. Glad you see why it is inappropriate.
  5. Can't access the WP, sorry.
  6. Slavic Macedonians as used in this article is most likely to differentiate it from Greek Macedonians. The article clearly uses "Macedonian" to refer to ethnic Macedonians (both Macedonians and Greeks, Macedonians rally against name deal with Greece, etc), only using Slavic Macedonians when referring to the historical situation in Thessaloniki.
  7. Clearly a qualifier to distinguish Albanians from ethnic Macedonians within the Macedonian citizenship group.
  8. Can you clarify how Background to the Macedonian Question by the Australian Parliamentary Research Service supports your point? There is no mention of "Slavic Macedonian(s)" in this document, the only thing remotely relevant is To the authorities in Athens, Macedonians are 'Slavophone Greeks' (Slavic-speaking Greeks) - while 'Macedonia is Greek and only Greek.' A number of Macedonians have been tried in the Greek courts for opposing the Government line.
  9. Gligoriv did not say it is inconceivable to think that today’s Slavomacedonians are descendants of Alexander the Great., but we are Slavs. We came to the region in the 6th century. Please do not fabricate claims.
  10. The BBC routinely uses "Macedonian", and in this article it clearly uses Slav Macedonians in the context of the Macedonian minority in Greece. When it does not talk about Greece's position or the situation in Greece, it simply uses Macedonian (for almost a century, ethnic Macedonians in Greece have been objects of suspicion).
  11. On the Guardian article, see 7. --Michail (blah) 18:24, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
Response:
1. This is clear evidence that the term slav/slavo/slavic macedonian is used outside of Greece, something people on this talk page have previously denied. The evidence is not being put forth to show that it's a universal term, only that it is an alternative term to macedonian and that this alternative term is used outside of Greece.
2. See 1.
3. Wikipedia says "There is consensus that Der Spiegel is generally reliable." You are also asserting that Der Spiegel is wrong without evidence.
4. N/A
5. I simply just reiterate this is yet another reliable source
6. This is exactly the point im making!!! Im not saying that "Slavic Macedonian" is the one and only term for "Macedonians", I'm only saying that it's an alternative term and that wikipedia must mention this alternative term in order to be neutral and not to seek to airbrush aspects of culture and history and politics that displease you.
7. See 6.
8. In the Executive Summary it clearly states that the Australian Government made the decision to refer to Macedonians as "Slav-Macedonians for official purposes"
9. Do not accuse me of fabricating claims, that is extremely poor. I am quoting from an academic source, "FYROM: A Source of Balkans Instability" by George C. Papavizas (Mediterranean Quarterly 23:2) page 45. He quotes Gligorov there. That's an academic journal so i highly doubt that the academic has just lied for no reason. Please note that i obviously cannot understand that youtube link you sent me because it is not in english.
10. Firstly, see 6. Secondly, this article is about the ETHNICITY not the NATIONALITY. Therefore it is precisely relevant that the ethnicity is referred to that way in some instances.
11. See 6. Apples&Manzanas (talk) 05:07, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Please stop flooding the talkpage with your POV. There was an extensive discussion in recent times about the rendering of the terms Macedonia and Macedonians by the Wikipedia community (WP:MOSMAC). Disruptive editing (like those based on WP:NATIONALIST) on the other hand in relation to Macedonia are covered under WP:ARBMAC via sanctions.Resnjari (talk) 05:35, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Response:WP: NATIONALIST Says "This includes being here to promote ideas, without reliable sources and due weight"...I am only discussing reliable sources here. The current page is biased and contains POV. I'm here to build a non-biased encyclopedia, please stop attributing bad faith. Apples&Manzanas (talk) 05:45, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
You forgot all the rest of WP: NATIONALIST. Why i brought it up is because the wiki community discussed and agreed to WP:MOSMAC which outlines how to proceed in relation to this and other related complex articles and subject matter. So piping on about "SlavoMacedonians" after MOSMAC already was done and dusted is an exercise in what? Really, what are you trying to achieve here?Resnjari (talk) 06:22, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Response I've never argued that this wikipedia article should not use the term Macedonian. All I've argued is that there should be one sentence that states that the North Macedonian-Macedonian ethnicity is also sometimes known as slavo/slav/slavic macedonians - because it's a fact backed up by a mountain of reliable sources.Apples&Manzanas (talk) 06:38, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
"Slavo/slav/slavic macedonians" is not what the ethnic group calls itself and with the Prespa agreement, Greece itself acknowledges that too regardless of the terminology a sizable part of its citizenry uses. WP:MOSMAC resolved issues regarding the matter. Its done and dusted.Resnjari (talk) 15:08, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Response: Wikipedia is never bound by the prespa agreement. Wikipedia is bound by reliable sources. You are implicitly agreeing that ive provided a huge number of reliable sources. The WP: MOSMAC page explicitly says "in contexts where ambiguity with Macedonian ethnicity might be an issue, more explicit forms or explanatory text may be used".....I think a line of explanatory text is important to explain that this article is referring to slavic macedonians rather than greek macedonians or albanian macedonians. And well, to explain the indisputable fact that slavic macedonians are often known as slavic macedonians. The Macedonians (Greeks) page provides a line of text saying "The Macedonians (Greek: Μακεδόνες, Makedónes) or Greek Macedonians" there's every reason reason this article should do the same to differentiate it from the Macedonians (Greeks) page. This page should not seek to deny that reality. As i said, it's not like proposing to change the name of this page. All im proposing is that it gives a couple of words to state that slavic macedonian is a an alternate term that is used. The WP: MOSMAC page supports exactly what im saying. Apples&Manzanas (talk) 17:54, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Please, don't POV push. True Wikpedia is not bound by the Prespa agreement, however it was taken into account during the drafting of WP:MOSMAC. And as such this part of MOSMAC applies here as the page is about the ethnic group: The Macedonian language, the Macedonians as an ethnic group, and the Macedonian culture continue to be referred to as such (e.g. Macedonian folk song, Macedonian film, etc.). This is in line with both the Prespa agreement and the large majority of reliable sources. In MOSMAC, the bits about explanatory notes are in reference to distinctions regarding the ancient population or the modern Greek speaking population that also calls itself Macedonian. There is nothing in MOSMAC to apply words like "Slavic" or "Slavo" to Macedonian when referring to the ethnic group. If you push this in the main article, you will be reverted. The article is covered by WP:ARBMAC. I will say this to you, if you are here to edit in good faith, all good, but if your intentions are to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS then editing Wikipedia is not for you. Cheers.Resnjari (talk) 18:30, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Response: Please, don't accuse me of POV pushing. All ive ever done here is discuss reliable sources, and tried to find consensus, and ive been slandered for it. WP:MOSMAC says that the slavic ethnicity is referred to as 'Macedonian' which is precisely why im saying the article should use that term. WP:MOSMAC doesnt say that the article is forbidden from mentioning that alternative terms exist, in fact, it explicitly permits it. "I will say this to you, if you are here to edit in good faith, all good, but if your intentions are to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS then editing Wikipedia is not for you." That is a personal attack. All ive ever done is discuss reliable sources here as a historian (not a citizen of any country in the balkans). If me raising reliable sources worries you, then perhaps you need reflect on that. Wikipedia: Assume good faith & Wikipedia:Tendentious_editing#Disputing_the_reliability_of_apparently_good_sources. Apples&Manzanas (talk) 18:51, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
I call it as i see it. This is blatant POV pushing trying to rehash something which smacks of WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. The discussion was had and in the end WP:MOSMAC was updated. The section called Language, identity, and culture sets out how the ethnic group should be covered in Wikipedia is quite clear. Nothing about "Slavic" or "Slavo" this or that or any terminology of the sort. But if you think you're on a winner here, the ball is in your court, but later you cannot say that you were not made aware of WP:MOSMAC or WP:ARBMAC if you go down that path. Cheers.Resnjari (talk) 19:09, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
When 10 reliable sources is "blatant pov", im not even sure what to say. Apples&Manzanas (talk) 19:34, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Your 10 RS sources are pre Prespa agreement. Many of these were used when the discussion was happening to craft new guidelines for the Macedonia matter on wiki English (have a read of the whole RFC [6].WP:MOSMAC has been updated and is clear.Resnjari (talk) 20:22, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
So your view, if i understand it correctly, is that nowhere on this article whatsoever should an extremely common term to refer to the macedonian ethnicity ever be used? How on earth would one distinguish an Albanian Macedonian from a Slavic Macedonian....Through the use of the word slavic!!! (as proved in reliable sources above). The WP:MOSMAC is just saying that macedonian is the general word to be used an adjective/demonym....it doesnt forbid someone from mentioning that sometimes the word 'slavic' is used as a specifier is used to distinguish Macedonians (slavic ethnicity) from Macedonians (greek) or Macedonian (nationality). Apples&Manzanas (talk) 21:07, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
The Slavic links to this ethnic groups identity have already been outlined in the article and cited in the lede. Anyway, you came late to this. These similar positions to yours were presented in the RFC. In the end there was long, a very long discussion and at the end the community got to vote on any of the things. Then it went to a few trusted editors who volunteered and had widespread support during the process who hashed out all the detailed results and votes to give MOSMAC its final form. So once again, when it refers in an article to the ethnic group its Macedonian, when its referring to the nationality there a variations. That said, this article is about the ethnic group, as signified even in its pagename. I wouldn't expend energy on this. From my part, i have made you aware of MOJSMAC and ARBMAC. If you make unilateral changes by pushing the "Slavic/Slavo" in front of Macedonian, that will be reverted.Resnjari (talk) 21:32, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Yes, this page is about the ethnicity. But there is also at least one other ethnic group that goes by the term Macedonian! You know this. Therefore the wikipedia page saying "Macedonian (ethnic group)" is insufficient because there's also at least one other ethnic group that goes by the word "Macedonian". WP: MOSMAC clearly affirms this "in contexts where ambiguity with Macedonian ethnicity might be an issue, more explicit forms or explanatory text may be used"....all im calling for is some explanatory text...I wonder why that worries you? Reliable sources indicate that the term slavomacedonian is one the best ways to make it clear what kind of macedonian youre talking about. I can't say any harm in writing " "Macedonians (Macedonian: Македонци, romanized: Makedonci), also known as Slavomacedonians, Slavic Macedonians or Slav Macedonians, are a nation and a South Slavic ethnic group..."Apples&Manzanas (talk) 21:56, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
You have come late to the table on this one. The wiki community made its decision after a very long process in recent times and its settled. You can choose to abide by WP:MOSMAC or go down your own path. But you cannot claim that you were not aware of it or WP:ARBMAC.Resnjari (talk) 22:09, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
As stated, my proposal is entirely in harmony with WP: MOSMAC. But I guess you can choose to ignore the arguments i made about that for the 3rd time. Apples&Manzanas (talk) 22:11, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
No they are not, because similar arguments were made at the RFC and a majority of the community decided not to go in that direction. Otherwise such a thing about the usage of "Slavo/Slavic" in front of the word Macedonian would have been included in MOSMAC. As i said, you can choose what way you want to go. I am not your keeper.Resnjari (talk) 22:18, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
I thought of a different idea in my attempts to reach consensus. How about we change the title of the article to Macedonians (slavic ethnic group)? Then that would make it clear that this page is about the slavic ethnic group, without needing to use the terms that appear to bother you. I think this a solution to the problem which then wouldnt require the other edits to be made. Apples&Manzanas (talk) 22:39, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

Not native to Macedonia

They're not native to the region of Macedonia. They're native to the region of Europe they originate from as Slavs. Slavic Macedonian identity started appearing in the late 19th century.

This above are forum-like writings. Wikipedia is not a forum. Jingiby (talk) 19:19, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
The point the previous user is making is that reliable sources do not support the notion that slavic Macedonians are native to the region of Macedonia. As i said in my edit, expert opinion from slightly under 400 scholars says that slavic Macedonians are not native to Macedonia: https://macedonia-evidence.org/obama-letter.html.
Also to quote anthropologist Loring M Danforth in "Claims to Macedonian Identity: The Macedonian Question and the Breakup of Yugoslavia", "Extreme Macedonian nationalists, who are concerned with demonstrating the continuity between ancient and modern Macedonians, deny that they are Slavs and claim to be the direct descendants of Alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonians. The more moderate Macedonian position, generally adopted by better educated Macedonians and publically endorsed by Kiro Gligorov, the first president of the newly independent Republic of Macedonia, is that modern Macedonians have no relation to Alexander the Great, but are a Slavic people whose ancestors arrived in Macedonia in the sixth century AD."
Historian and expert in the field, Robin Lane Fox: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OYx-29Z3xE , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgMm93eW5a4 ,
This discussion has already been had on articles like Alexander the Great and Ancient Macedonians you can find many many more reliable sources there, slavic Macedonians are not native to Macedonia. This article is pushing a widely discredited notion that slavic Macedonians are native to Macedonia, Wikipedia is not the place to do this. Wikipedia works on neutral point of view and reliable sources. Apples&Manzanas (talk) 19:33, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
Per the Cambridge English Dictionary native means a person who was born in a particular place. If you think about the meaning aboriginal, so even the Greeks are not aboriginal on the Balkans too. Before them here lived the Pelasgi etc. But this in nonsensical discussion is my opinion. Jingiby (talk) 19:46, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
Ignoring the fact that definition is misleading and never applied by any credible scholars when referring to slavic Macedonians. That definition still would make no sense on this article, because this article is about slavic macedonian ethnicity! It isn't about people who were born in the country of North Macedonia. This article includes the diaspora population many of whom werent born in the region of Macedonia, and this article excludes Greeks, Albanians, etc born in the region of Macedonia and/or the country of North Macedonia. As such, even applying that definition, it would make no sense given the content of the article. Apples&Manzanas (talk) 19:58, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

Native means they're indigenous in a particular region with a historical presence in it which these people aren't. The term 'Slavic Macedonian' or just 'Macedonian' as an ethnicity is ONLY used for those living in the country of North Macedonia. Not in the entire region of Macedonia. The term didn't start appearing until the late 19th century. I would have gone even further to argue how they shouldn't even be called Macedonians in the first place because they're not but I'll debate within the boundaries of this particular discussion. Just like Romans, Greeks, Illyrians, Thracians, Turks (Ottomans) etc., Slavs have inhabited the region historically. Not Slavic Macedonians, though. The term is a modern invention for those living in North Macedonia. Greeks, on the other hand, are native to the region because they've been inhabiting it since the ancient times, the first ones being the Ancient Macedonians - a greek tribe. Surprisingly, you opposed to me pointing this out in the Greek Macedonians page at the introduction but you're absolutely okay with favoring nationalist propaganda from NM in this article. You'll probably rush with demanding me to be blocked once again because historical facts are less important than nationalist nonsense on this site, apparently. Thank you. -- Ronbb345 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ronbb345 (talk • contribs) 09:47, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

Macedonia as a region is wider then the current independent republic. It includes small parts of Albania, a province of Greece and the Pirin area of Bulgaria. In Albania, Greece and Bulgaria there are people who have a Macedonian national consciousness and speak the Slavic language. Their numbers may not be big, but they exist in the modern period and has been noted in scholarship. What that means for us here is that the phrasing "native to the region of Macedonia" is appplicable and not historically redunanat. I will just mention to editors that this page comes under WP:MOSMAC, and that disruptive editing comes under WP:ARBMAC.Resnjari (talk) 19:27, 29 November 2019 (UTC)
Nothing in WP:MOSMAC says that we need to spread historical myths about slavic Macedonians being native to Macedonia. Making baseless threats is not a valid argument. I don't dispute what you've said above, but that's totally irrelevant. There are Korean people born in Mexico who identify as Korean, that doesn't mean that Korean people are native to Mexico, that doesn't mean that Korean people are Native Mexicans. Apples&Manzanas (talk) 01:23, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
Poor analogy. Think the extreme case where ethnic Macedonians mainly descend from 6th century Slavs (unlikely due to common sense and genetic evidence), an ancestral and cultural/linguistic lineage of 1500 years in Macedonia is enough to justify the usage of the term native. Polynesian settlement in New Zealand for example is said to have happened in the late 13th century AD, yet we still refer to Moriori as natives to New Zealand. The case with Greek Macedonians is complex as they have been shaped by migrations in contemporary times (19-20th century) therefore usage of native for Greek Macedonians is contentious. Beat of the tapan (talk) 03:30, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
Maori are the oldest remaining people in New Zealand, Slavic Macedonians are not the oldest remaining people in Macedonia. Your analogy proves my point. Apples&Manzanas (talk) 03:58, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
If you want a better analogy look at the Japanese people article where it states that the Japanese "are an ethnic group that is native to the Japanese archipelago", despite the fact that they have been shaped by migrations from 400 BC-12th Century AD and the indigenous Ainu people predating their presence on the archipelago. Beat of the tapan (talk) 04:22, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
As a subsequent edit, i should clarify that Im not opposed to the use of the term "region of Macedonia", i believe that Ronbb35 is the person more concerned by that. My concern is primarily with the use of the term "native", which is obvious propagandist rubbish and deliberately pushing an agenda contrary to historical fact. Apples&Manzanas (talk) 01:30, 30 November 2019 (UTC)

Synthesis + Unsourced Material

I propose dropping or significantly modifying the following sentence,

Many aspects which now define Macedonian culture are a culmination of the so-called "Byzantine commonwealth"[63] which consisted of Medieval Byzantine, Bulgarian and Serbian Empires.

Because 1.) "Byzantine commonwealth" is a flawed term not fit for usage in this context (See Byzantine commonwealth). 2.) Macedonian culture [being] a culmination of the so-called "Byzantine commonwealth" is unsourced. 3.) Saying the "Byzantine commonwealth"[63] ... consisted of Medieval Byzantine, Bulgarian and Serbian Empires sounds like original research (WP:NOR) without a source explicitly stating that.

Something along the lines of Macedonian culture being largely derived from Byzantine culture (or similar) sounds sufficient enough. Beat of the tapan (talk) 01:08, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

Sounds good to me, thanks. --Local hero talk 17:41, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
Macedonian culture is based on Medieval Byzantine, but also on Slavic cultures as Bulgarian and Serbian ones. Cvijic is very controversial. Jingiby (talk) 04:49, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
It's definitely an improvement of what was previously there. An issue with what you proposed is that Medieval Byzantine and Bulgarian culture had a much larger impact than the Serbian culture, so that one is probably not worth mentioning. Second issue is how much of the Medieval Bulgarian culture is derived from Medieval Byzantine and how do we disambiguate the Bulgarian Turkic culture which has nothing to do with Macedonian culture? Beat of the tapan (talk) 05:24, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
I also agree, Cvijic is not a neutral source so I am opening to replacing the reference with something more neutral. Although Cvijic has seem to have taken a more objective approach to this matter and more can be read in The Balkan Peninsula of Jovan Cvijić: historical background and contemporary trends in human geography Beat of the tapan (talk) 05:37, 30 November 2019 (UTC)

NO GENETICS STUDIES? NOT ALLOWED TO TREAT MACEDONIANS AS SLAVS? NOT ALOWED TO TREAT THEM AS SERBS?

It seems that Vatican's Jesuits oblige the world to believe that there are no Serbs, no Serbian culture, no Vinca, no Paleolithic I2a genes in Macedonians and Serbs... They want to erase the whole human history and keep us in lies! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:1715:9D9C:2730:A4F8:C468:2DC5:6ECF (talk) 14:46, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

I am not sure what you are trying to get at. Can you please further elaborate? Beat of the tapan (talk) 05:29, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

Disruptive editing - 31 December 2019‎

Reverting last two edits. Please do not delete sourced material. The 'Country Reports on Human Rights Practices - 2005' explicitly states facts such as

"In August a regional newspaper in the northern part of the country censored an article on the controversy surrounding the Slavophone dialect, referred to as "Macedonian," that was to be published in a regular column. The European Bureau for Lesser Used Languages and the Greek Helsinki Monitor (GHM) expressed concern over the newspaper's refusal to publish the article."

"In May 2004 a former Greek Orthodox priest who became a priest of the Macedonian Orthodox Church was issued a three‑month prison sentence, later suspended, for holding religious services without a house of prayer permit. He appealed the sentence, but at year's end there was no decision."

"The law permits the government to remove citizenship from persons who commit acts contrary to the interests of the country for the benefit of a foreign state. While the law applies to citizens regardless of ethnicity, it has been enforced in all but one case only against persons who identified themselves as members of the "Macedonian minority." The government did not reveal the number of such cases, but it was believed to be low, and there were no reports of new cases during the year. Dual citizens who lost their citizenship under this provision sometimes were prevented from entering the country on the passport of their second nationality. Activists charged that several expatriate "Slavo-Macedonians" whose names appeared on a "black list" were barred from entering the country."

"On October 20, the ECHR ordered the government to pay $42,294 (35,245 euros) to the Rainbow Party for violations of 2 ECHR articles: the right to a fair hearing and the right to freedom of assembly and association. The ruling faulted police for failing to take measures to prevent, or at least contain, violence during a 1995 demonstration instigated by the town council and local priests, during which Rainbow Party members were assaulted after the group hung a sign written in both Greek and the "Slavomacedonian dialect" outside party headquarters. The ECHR also held that the seven years and one month that authorities took to investigate the case was an excessive and unreasonable amount of time."

Which sounds like political oppression by the government. Beat of the tapan (talk) 00:16, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

There is also the statement from Amnesty International titled Charges against members of the "Rainbow" party should be dropped which states "Amnesty International is calling on the Greek authorities to drop the charges against four members of the ethnic Macedonian minority party "Rainbow" at their trial in Florina on 15 September 1998.

"Rainbow" members Vasilis Romas, Costas Tasopoulos, Petros Vasiliadis and Pavlos Voskopoulos are charged with "causing and inciting mutual hatred among the citizens" under Article 192 of the Greek Penal Code.

These charges were brought against them after they displayed a sign bearing the words "Florina Committee" in both Greek and Macedonian outside the Florina office of the Rainbow Party in September 1995. There is nothing in the indictment which suggests that they advocated violence or incited hatred.

Amnesty International believes that their prosecution is a violation of Article 10 (1) of the European Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms (ECHR), which Greece has ratified and is legally bound to observe.

Article 10 (1) states: "Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers."

Should they be imprisoned after their trial, Amnesty International will adopt them as prisoners of conscience and will call for their immediate and unconditional release."


I will be adding this as an additional source. If you are not happy with any cited material that is presented in the article, then consider rephrasing in stronger correspondence to the citation, rather than deletion. Although now that the issue has been brought up in the talk page, you will need consensus for such changes.

In terms of language shifts, there are terms such as "slavicize" used in academic literature. slavicization, to some degrees, has shaped the Macedonian ethnic group as Latinization language shifts has shaped many ethnic groups in Western Europe. Unless you can find a source contrary to this, I suggest discussing it prior to removing it. Beat of the tapan (talk) 01:30, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

First of all, you were adding new material with your edits, not me, so you need to gain consensus. About the language shift, it's not a straightforward fact at all how slavicization processes approximated/hypothesized by researchers to had happened mostly in the early middle ages are of any significance when we refer on the "shaping" or "history" of the modern group, however we define these words. Even if you manage to establish with specific sources its noteworthiness, you'll need to add it in a more clear manner, not in the middle of a sentence which basically describes how fluid identities and national affiliations were in Ottoman Macedonia and onwards. There was no Slavicization process in 19th century Ottoman Macedonia, the earliest period the identity can be said to have formed, so there was no such "language shift" taking part in the Macedonian ethnogenesis. GroGaBa (talk) 09:15, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
Beat of the tapan, Slavicization of Ethnic Macedonians is something new. As far as I know the Ethnic Macedonians arose as a separate comunity and later as a nation during the 20th century. The Slavicization on the Balkans occurred mainly during 7-9 centuries mostly among the local Byzantines (formed by an early medieval mix of Ancient Greek, Thracian, Illyrian, Roman, etc. subjects, later Christianized, and subsequently linguistically Romanized or Hellenized) and some contemporary invaders as Bulgars, Avars etc. How this process could shape a nation that was non-existing then? I think the Hellenization that occurred in Northern Greece after 1912 and especially between 1936-1941 and between 1945-1974, has played a crucial role for the linguistic replacement among many Slavic speakers of Greek Macedonia, which caused several waves of migrations from people with ethnic Macedonian identity or such who adopted it abroad. Jingiby (talk) 11:30, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Category:Slavic countries and territories

It is currently being proposed that Category:Slavic countries and territories be deleted. This article is related to that category. The relevant discussion is located at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2020 January 8#Countries and territories by language family. The discussion would benefit from input from editors with a knowledge of and interest in Macedonians. Krakkos (talk) 11:15, 10 January 2020 (UTC)

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