Talk:Magical girl/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Obligatory heading

This topic needs a good discussion of the history of this genre, with titles, creators, and dates. I might get around to doing one, but that's a longshot. Help would be much appreciated. -- Amcaja

Wouldn't 'majoko' be a naturally contraction of MAhoushouJOKOmikku? I don't know the actual origin of the word, but this makes more sense to me and doesn't require English.

I suspect it's actually 'majokko' (魔女っ子), or "witch girl". -- Paul Richter 16:32, 10 May 2004 (UTC)

Most of titles on this article is called "Shōjo Batoru(battling girls)" in Japan. "Shōjo Batoru" is not "Mahō Shōjo" though it is a subgenre of "Mahō Shōjo".

Also magical girl's Animes without an element of battle is included in a genre of Mahō Shōjo in Japan. For example, Mahoutsukai Sally, Majokko Megu-chan, Minky Momo, Hime-chan No Ribon, Ojamajo Doremi, and many other titles. These titles seem to have been excepted from Mahō Shōjo's genre in this article.

The magical girl's anime without an element of battle is not Mahō Shōjo in Europe and America?--Kasuga 18:47, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The following paragraph was by Starlightprince on October 12th, probably to insert a link to the vanity page Solar Element Saga:

The magical girl phenomenon also has crossed media into printed media as well often in comics such as buffy,electra, Scarlet Witch and Psi-Mage and sometime in novel form is such as Solar Element Saga and tamora pierce's Circle of Magic series

The vanity page has since been deleted, the link to it has been removed, and the rest of the text has been cleaned up, but a newer version of it is still in the article:

The magical girl phenomenon also has crossed into printed media as well often in comics such as Buffy, Elektra, Scarlet Witch and Psi-Mage and sometimes in novel form, e.g. Tamora Pierce's Circle of Magic series.

Can somebody verify whether this remaining information is correct?

"buffy" and "elektra" have been unlinked by Morven, with the reasons "Delink buffy, because this is a disambiguation page, none of the links on which mention a comic" and "delink electra, since that also points to an unhelpful disambig page," then capitalized and re-linked by 68.192.217.56. I've never heard about Circle of Magic being inspired by Japanese comics (though I understand the main character of Song of the Lioness, by the same author, was inspired by a comic; I believe it was a Western one, though).

If nobody knows whether this is correct or not, I'm inclined to believe that it's as made-up as the notability of Solar Element Saga. Benja 23:12, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

Sorry about the whole Buffy and Elektra thing...I actually thought that the person who wrote that to begin with was giving examples of magical girls in Western comics and literature, so I just went along with it. It pretty much seemed like that was what s/he meant...I'm sorry. -- Ooks

Why was "The Powerpuff Girls" taken out?

Many people consider it to be a parody or inspired by magical girls to a degree. Plus, the anime based on it is totally magical girl. I'll probably be adding this one back on unless somebody tells me why it was deleted. Wow, I sound too mean in that sentence...sorry...

--Ooks

Magic Girl genre vs. a girl with magic

Including comics like Elektra in the magic girl genre seems way to broad. I have little knowledge of the magic girl genre, but from this article the dark, very violent, assassin that is Elektra seems very unlike Cardcaptor Sakura and the like. Perhaps it does fit into the genre, but including it makes the magic girl genre seem like it includes any girl with magic powers which seems pretty ridiculous to me. Could someone underline common features which unite Elektra with the other magic girl examples mentioned?Jztinfinity 16:41, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

No love for Americans?

I was wondering why this article seems to be mainly focused on the anime/manga version of a magical girl. Mary Marvel was technically the first magical girl going by the "Mahō Shōjo in Japan" section. She would transform into a new outfit and gain magical powers to fight evil and appeared in Fawcett/DC Comics in the 1940's. Also, Wonder Woman can be considered magical girl since she has magical items such as a tiara (she actually threw it like Sailor Moon did, which is where Sailor Moon probably got it from), bracers, a lasso, and sometimes a shield and sword to fight evil. This is also not including stuff like Sabrina the Teenage Witch (1962) and other titles that predate Maho Shoujo Sally (which was based upon Bewitched) so it seems odd to say magical girl is an anime-subgenre and not just a genre in itself for everything. -- User:Amibite

Just figured I'd bring this up for questioning.

Are Mary Marvel and Wonder Woman magical girls?

First saying, I don't know the formal definition of English term "magical girl". Therefore, I explain only circumstances of "maho shojo" in Japan.

In Japan, Mary Marvel and Wonder Woman are recognized as superheroines, and are not thought to be "maho shojo" at all. Maho shojo is interpreted as not individual characters but a genre. Therefore, even if the girl has the magical ability in the works that is not Maho shojo genre, she is not called maho shojo.

Moreover, Maho shojo-genre belongs to everyday magics, and not superheroines. Neither a Wonder Woman nor other superheroines doesn't influence Sally at all. Sally has been influenced directly from Bewitched's Samantha, indirectly from mysterious strangers like Mary Poppins etc. They are quite different from superheroines.

"Women or girls who can use magic" is not the same as "maho shojo".

However, as far as I know, the English term "magical girl" is derived from Japanese "maho shojo". Unless term "magical girl" existed also before anime, I think that it is proper to revert the article once.

--Kasuga 11:47, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Response

I don't see why they couldn't be classified as such. They're as much magical girls as Cutey Honey and Sailor Moon are superheroines. They all fight evil bad guys and save the city/world, which is the basis for any hero. They also have some elements that can be found in current Japanese magical girls series, such as a transformation and magical devices (Wonder Woman had the whole "throw her magic tiara" thing down.

Sally has no real conncection to Sailor Moon either, but it would still be considering magical girl. Theres two types, like I said. A sitcom type and a battling type. While WW may not have influenced Sally, she no definately influenced the world to create more women heroines like Cutey Honey and A-Ko, since manga and anime is heavily influenced by Western properties like comics and shows.

All I was saying is you can trace some modern magical girl similarities back to Wonder Woman and Mary Marvel since it takes some things form them, even if the genre didn't officially start until the 1960s with Bewitched/Sabrina/Jeannie/Sally

Perhaps there should be a seperate article for "maho shoujo" and one for "magical girl"? One for a general purpose and one for the Japanese-specific version? It just doesn't seem right to specifically focus on the Japanese version all the time since America is the one who created the genre.

--Amibite 1:20, 12 May 2006

First of all, please notice that early magical girl-genre is only sitcom type, and battling type was added afterward.

"Mahou-tsukai Sally" (1966) and some her followers in the same period introduced the magical girl-genre to Japanese anime. (According to source;スーパー魔女っ子大戦 キネマ旬報社, the genre had been surely established in middle of 1970's.) And, Sailor Moon was aired in 1992. She was very revolutionary, but had clearly elements of magical girls. Therefore, she joined to the magical girl-genre.

It is not that Sailor Moon made Sally the origin of the magical girl-genre. It is opposite. Sailor Moon joined the magical girl-genre that was established by Sally. (It is common sense among anime fans in Japan. If you have a Japanese friend who know anime well, please ask him/her.)

And, Sailor Moon and Cutey Honey are considered crossing-genre works of sentai and magical girl. ("Sentai" is a subgenre of supehero-genre in Japan.) However, the existence of the crossing-genre works doesn't mean that female characters in past sentai or superhero-genre are magical girls. Sentai's female characters can transform themselves and use special devices like WW. But they are not considered to be magical girls at all. In the same manner, it is very strange that MM and WW are magical girls in Japanese sense. Perhaps, there is the same sense also in the West. It is shown by that "magical girls" category-tag is not added to the article of MM and WW.

...BTW, what's "A-ko"? If you say "Project A-ko", it is not a magical girl but SF slapstick comedy. If you say "Himitsu no Akko-chan", first Akko seriese has no influence from WW and other supeheros as long as I know. --Kasuga 02:36, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

I would urge that there not be a split. Editors of Japanese topics on Wikipedia already have a great tendency to try to separate anything Japanese into its own article. If magic girl stories have cross-cultural antecedants, that deserves to be in the article. However, before any move is taken, I would urge everyone to try to come up with sources to support one view or the other. Otherwise, all this discussion back and forth is just a bunch of original research. — Amcaja 20:47, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you. However, I have only sources written in Japanese. ( I wrote the history of magical girl-genre in the Japanese Wikipedia based on the sources.) --Kasuga 02:39, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

There's no problem with Japanese sources! If you have the language skills and want to work from them, you are perfectly free to do so. Frankly, the Japanese pages on the English Wikipedia could use a lot more editors with Nihongo skills. Perhaps you could work on the history of the genre for this article while other editors look for support for the notion that magical girl stories really began in the West (beyond Bewitched). — Amcaja 05:47, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm not quite sure what proof you would need or are talking about. Isn't the fact magical girls like Sabrina and other series that incorperate the themes found in Sally that predate it be enough to establish that the concept was in America before Japan? Especially if Sally's creator even admited to being influenced by Bewitched. --User:Amibite 09:21, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

If you can find a source that says all that, then fine. Otherwise, we're drifting into original research. — Amcaja 16:57, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Please forgive saying again. "A girl who can use magic is not same as magical girl."

And, please understand "magical girl" is a genre-name that has the history for 40 years in Japan. It has developed while closely relating to the history of Japanese animation.

It is hard to explain circumstances of this genre by my poor English. However, I try it.

Most animation historians in Japan consider Sally to be the first magical girl, it is NOT because Sally is a first fictional witch girl, BUT because Sally influences all of works to be considered magical girl-genre. In other words, It is NOT Sally to be considered to be magical girl's origin after the genre developed, BUT a genre to be called "magical girl" developed from Sally.

Actually, if a work doesn't belong the system from Sally, even if it is anime of witch girl, it isn't considered to be magical girls in Japan. For example, Hayao Miyazaki's "The Kiki's Delivery Service" is anime of a little witch girl. However, this anime is not considered to be a magical girl by most anime fan. At least, it isn't considered the proper magical girl work.

The reason that WW, MM nor Sabrina isn't considered to be magical girl works by most Japanese readers is that these works don't belong to the magical girl system from Sally. (Also "Bewitched" is not considered to be a magical girl in Japan. It is considered to be just a sitcom that influenced the first magical girl, Sally)

Or, English term "magical girl" might change into a different meaning from Japanese "maho shojo" in the future. However, Japanese term "maho shojo" that is the origin of "magical girl" means not entire fictional witch-girls, but a specific genre and protagonists who appears in it.

--Kasuga 07:10, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

PS. I think a suitable article name for your description is not "magical girl" but "fictional witch" or "fictional magic-user".

--Kasuga 07:55, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

On the grounds of Buffy, Rainbow Bright, W.I.T.C.H., WinX Club, Elektra, and the rest of the Western examples, I suppose if this is limited to series that specifically call themselves "magical girl" and not just "girls who use magic", then there shouldn't really be a need for a Western section because it's mostly a term used by anime fans in that case. In the Western world, Wonder Woman, W.I.T.C.H., and Buffy are called super-heroines. As for influence, there's really no way to tell unless it's in writing, such as Bewitched and Sally, since you can find elements of Japanese magical girl anime in American comics dating back to the 40's. (Although Shadowcat of the X-Men was the direct inspiration for characters like Buffy, Juniper Lee, and other similar arch-types according to creator Joss Whedon. So I guess it really does come down to terminology. Amibite 04:34, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to add something: most mahou shojo anime/manga depicts an ordinary school girl from 8th grade to 3rd year in high school. It shows how an ordinary girl becomes a "magical girl" in order to save Tokyo and the entire world. While Wonder Woman, W.I.T.C.H. and WinX Club could be considered "magical girl" they don't follow the plot line of mahou shojo. I mean, Wonder Woman is a salary woman, not a teenage girl. And W.I.T.C.H. and WinX club are more about the actual fighting than romance. A huge key in mahou shojo is romance, i.e. in Tokyo Mew Mew, Momomiya Ichigo loves Aoyama, a popular boy in her school, but after she becomes Mew Ichigo, she can't get too nervous around him (or in the anime, she can't kiss him) because then she'll turn into a cat. W.I.T.C.H, last time I checked, had a little bit of romance, but really concentrated on the magic and fighting. Same with WinX. In other words, Mahou Shojo is not just "girls who can use magic", but girls who can use magic, and are normal teens at the same time, experiencing first love and comical situations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by SakuraGyaru (talk • contribs) 11:59, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Wonder Woman by MR UNSEEN

Do we consider Wonder Woman to be a Magical girl or not

Origins of Magical Girls

Is it true that magical girls orginated from Bewitched.

Magical girl series for men?

The Cutie Honey article makes a passing reference to "the "darker" magical girl series aimed at male audiences rather than female". What are these like? I would like to see the issue addressed in this article, with examples. Does it refer to hentai, like Angel Blade, or what? SpectrumDT 13:35, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Cutie Honey is loaded with sexual fanservice (after all, she spends most of the series half-naked) and is a lot more gritty and violent than most other shows in the genre (eg Cutey Honey needs to run her opponents through with a sword, blood gushing everywhere). It is also a lot harder when it comes to death and other such grim realities. If you watch both Cutey Honey and Cutey Honey F (the former is a shounen version; the latter shoujo) you will be able to see how the same story and characters are dramatically different depending on the audience. Elric of Grans 21:57, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I was thinking the same. In the past few years some mahou shoujo anime emerged targeting male audience, with fanservice and/or spectacular battle scenes/magical spells. An example is the Mahou Shoujo Lyrical Nanoha series. Now those aren't for young girls, with all of that aggressive battles, technomagical stuff and moderate fanservice. ^^' And there are some moral or ethic topics in them, for example child abuse or the purpose of life. I don't have the level of english to write about this myself, but I guess somebody else could write about the "darker" magical girl series for teenage boys/men. --Rev-san 08:46, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Young girls are probably not watching TV at that timeslot either ;) Besides, it is a spin-off of the Triangle Heart eroge, which is definitely not for young girls. There are definitely titles aimed at a non-shoujo croud, and those that are may contain fanservice for older fans (eg Minky Momo, as a police woman, once caught Lupin III, among others). Elric of Grans 22:47, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Notability

From the article:

"Notable examples include Sailor Moon, Cardcaptor Sakura, Tokyo Mew Mew, Magic Knight Rayearth, Pretty Sammy, Kiset-suteki hana, Ojamajo Doremi, Mermaid Melody, Sugar Sugar Rune, Pretty Cure, and Wedding Peach."

Personally, I would feel that list is a little long, and are they all really that notable? There is no question that Sailor Moon is very notable, and Cardcaptor Sakura possibly belongs too. Tokyo Mew Mew and Magic Knight Rayearth, as much as I like them, are probably less notable figures. Pretty Sammy is probably not very notable at all, and I have never even heard of 'Kiset-suteki hana', which really is saying something. Ojamajo Doremi and Pretty Cure are both quite popular, at the moment, but are they particularly notable? Likewise, I cannot see Mermaid Melody, Sugar Sugar Rune or Wedding Peach as particularly notable. Meanwile, where's Sally, Akko-chan or Cutey Honey? They are perhaps the three most notable of all (the first majokko, the first human given the ability to transform, and the first transforming 'ai no senshi' protecting the world)! I would also consider Creamy Mami and Minky Momo far more significant figures than, say, Wedding Peach or Lucia. Elric of Grans 21:57, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

The original list I believe was limted to Sailor Moon and Cardcaptor Sakura. What's happened is that over time, people have added their pet favorite series so now we have the long list you cited. I would fully support paring it back to two or three examples, but it's likely to grow back again over time. — Amcaja 02:23, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I like that compromise in the current version of the article. It keeps the core items to just what matters whilst still allowing people to slot in their favourite title. How extensive should we make this list and should we think of splitting it to its own article? I have a (non-exhaustive) list in my user-area for my own notes if anyone is interested. It mostly sticks with anime, as non-notable manga would see the list tripple in size too quickly. Elric of Grans 22:52, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Extent of Power

"Magical girls' powers are usually ill-defined. While it is clear that their powers have a source behind them, the extent and exact nature of their powers are usually not known or left ambiguous. Thus, it is not uncommon for a magical girl to summon extraordinary new magics that she was previously not capable of in the last moments of an epic battle (typically to save her friends or the planet), and which serves as a deus ex machina to resolve the major conflict in a climactic fashion. Therefore, it differs from shounen in that shounen tends to specifically state what a hero's powers are and what the extent of those powers can be, whereas maho shoujo tends to leave the question ambiguous and instead allows her powers to be more free-flowing and open to change based on the situation."

While it is often true that we see them use one-off or previously unknown powers, I would not say it is that common. Most of the titles I have seen their powers are well defined and any new powers have a firm explanation to them. Meanwhile, surely I am not the only one who sees the irony with the shounen comment.

Generic shounen action series:

A: `Take this: super ultimate attack!'

B: `Ha-ha, that cannot hurt me: I have mastered deluxe super ultimate attack'

A: `I have never heard of such power, but apparently it takes decades to master; I shall do it in a week!'

six days pass

B: `Hey, you said I had a week!'

A: `Feel my deluxe super ultimate attack!'

B is defeated by deluxe super ultimate attack++

If anything, shounen titles are more likely to have new, untold powers suddenly appear (and this comment seems to ignore the fact that shounen mahou shoujo titles exist). I will not remove it outright, as my objection alone does not invalidate it, but I am struggling to come up with sufficient examples of this being true to justify it. Cutey Honey did not suddenly have any additional `ultimate' powers, nor did Hime-chan, nor the Studio Pierrot girls (though they often have one-off spells), nor Minky Momo. Mary Bell's scenarios are too innocent, Sakura only uses pre-defined cards, etc. It is true they are often somewhat ambiguous (eg Yuu can transform into Creamy Mami, which allows her to use `magic', but this is never defined), whilst super heroes generally have more specific powers (Mikuru Beam!), but the rest of the statement reads like it was made with little reference to fact. Elric of Grans 23:53, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Page Title?

Is there a reason this article should have this title? if it is just about the Maho shojo genre of anime/manga etc, shouldn't it be primarily under that, or at least have the subtitle (anime/manga), and not general "magical girl" as it not about general magical girls in any form? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Liddell (talk • contribs) 23:48, 24 January 2007 (UTC).

Per Wikipedia:Use English, it should not be under the title "mahou shoujo". It might be a good idea to move it to "Magical girl anime and manga", though. -- Amcaja 01:56, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, I think that a good title would be "Magical Girl (Anime Genre)", or something to that effect. Simply "Magical Girl" is a misleading title. Aeonoris (talk) 08:48, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

It already explicitly states in the lead that it's a genre, and there is no need to further disambiguate the article title if it is unique (i.e. no other articles on Wikipedia share a similar title).--十八 09:47, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Just for clarity, I have moved this page to "Magical girl (anime genre)". Anybody have a good reason why it should not be here? Seems confusing to have it simply under "Magical girl".Aeonoris (talk) 03:51, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

It's not confusing. It takes merely a few seconds to read the first sentence of the article, and a bit longer for the lead paragraph. As I stated earlier, the title is unique, so there's no need to disambiguate further. Failing that, it's much easier to link magical girl than it is to link magical girl (anime genre), and this way we cut out having the fix links so that they don't get redirected.--十八 06:19, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Reading the first paragraph, it says things like "Magical girls (魔法少女, mahō shōjo?) belong to a sub-genre of Japanese fantasy anime and manga." This is rather confusing, since the entire article simply talks about "magical girls" instead of magical girls that fall under this sub-genre. There are a rather lot of books and stories that feature magical girls and do not belong to this sub-genre, and anybody looking for information on magical girls as a whole would be directed to this ambiguously titled page, with ambiguous speech, such as claiming that "magical girls" all belong to a sub-genre of anime/manga. This is, obviously, absurd. Aeonoris (talk) 23:36, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Reliable sources

Just asking, can these sites be considered reliable sources? —May the Edit be with you, always. (T-borg) ^{(drop me a line)} 09:41, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[1]
[2]

LOL, I guess that depends on what your source is for. But, in general, fansites aren't reliable sources. It's tough with fan sites because fans have a tendency to write anything and everything just to pump whatever they're into. But, at the same time, many fan sites have legitimate information. Those tend to be the large ones not the indivudually diven ones. All of this makes it hard to source a small trend or movement in pop culture. The best way it to find a site that's more broad, such as a comprehensive anime site that happens so mention the magical girl sub-genre. ask123 22:47, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Right, thanks. I was asking because those were all I could find, but then again, I'm not the best at searching for info. —May the Edit be with you, always. (T|C) 20:57, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Re-haul

This article needs some serious, serious re-haul. I'll probably start working on a new version, though I don't have *that* much experience working on wiki articles. (If someone could point me to where they hide the sand box feature, I would be much appreciative.) I think we can put on the to-do list:

clarifying the difference between a "mahou shoujo/magical girl" and a girl that is magical
More detail on history of magical girls in Japan, and the development of the genre
A side section (probably in the segment on Mahou Shoujo in the 1990s) on the development and perception of Mahou Shoujo in the west (i.e., "It's all sentai fighting-type shows")
What distinguishes a magical girl from a superheroine
general themes of magical girl shows, and how it distinguishes them from shows with girls that are magical
Magical girl parody and shounen series inspired my mahou shoujo aimed at girls
"See Alsos" for Superheroine, Sentai, Shoujo and Moe [?]

I think it would be best to focus on mahou shoujo aimed at girls and make a side-segment on those shows spun off from Mahou Shoujo that are focused on guys, which have a good history in their own right.

Unfortunately, I think there will probably have to be some use of fan-sites since there is so little on this topic elsewhere. I think it should be okay as long as there is liberal use of sources that are more respected alongside it. (Ie, perhaps referencing talk about mahou shoujo on This Page but making sure to reference related ANN encyclopedic entries and the series referenced itself.) After all, much of the info on more "legit" sites is culled from fan resources.

Let me know what you guys think.--Sailor Titan (talk) 20:18, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

You mean this sandbox feature? --Aeonoris (talk) 23:44, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Super Sentai

Not sure if you guys agree that it should be added to the article, but I think the Super Sentai article should at least be in related links (I'm going to add it, but thought I'd give some reasons here that it should be added into the article as well)

Teens as heroes fighting evil
Secret identities (with some exceptions)
Non transformation abilities, such as training in martial arts
Transformation sequences to gain powers
Often have "team" powers

I'm sure there are a few others as well, but I just went through most of the things listed under the Common Themes And Features section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.69.80.190 (talk) 02:34, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

non Japan Magicial girl series

W.i.t.c.h. and WINX club are shows that are based on the magicial girl genre why is not allowed to discuss non anime/manga titles? when those series are cleary BASED on those shows. Can someone tell me why the article was removed? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.89.205.33 (talk) 20:17, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

I would have removed it purely on the bases that it was original research. Even though W.I.T.C.H. has many of the hallmarks of a magical girl show, you will still need a reliable source calling it such or stating that it was influenced by Japanese magical girls shows. The same goes for WINX Club. --Farix (Talk) 22:06, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

So we need someone's critical reception or review talking about that so that we can include it here? Blueknightex (talk) 06:15, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

hyphenation: "magical girl" and "magical-girl": summarizing discussion for convenience

Why do you change "magical girl" to "magical-girl" when you copyedit Sailor Moon articles? I've never seen the phrase as "magical-girl" in the literature, as "magical girl" seems to be preferred, and it adds unnecessary text to a page, especially when you pipe the phrase. --Malkinann (talk) 13:43, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

For the hyphenation of "magical-girl" when used as an adjective, please see the WP:HYPHEN section of the Wikipedia Manual-of-Style guideline - especially point 3 on compund adjectives. -- HoundsOfSpring (talk) 05:40, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your explanation. I believe that WP:COMMONNAME contradicts your application of WP:HYPHEN, specifically "Common usage in reliable sources is preferred to technically correct but rarer forms, whether the official name, the scientific name, the birth name, the original name or the trademarked name." The common use is clearly the unhyphenated version. --Malkinann (talk) 10:02, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

WP:COMMONNAME relates to article titles, which don't affect using descriptive phrases withing articles. WP:COMMONNAME also primarily deals with proper names, which likewise has no relevance to class adjectives. Reliable sources in multiple fields use hyphens appropriately in compounds - and so can we in editing Wikipedia. -- HoundsOfSpring (talk) 06:48, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

I have never seen the term magical girl referred to as "magical-girl" in the literature that discusses the concept, and so I feel that the hyphenated version is wrong, as it is not what the literature uses. I could ask for further clarification at WP:ANIME, if you like? --Malkinann (talk) 00:22, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps we should bring the matter to the attention of Wikipedia:WikiProject Grammar instead of or as well as WP:ANIME. -- HoundsOfSpring (talk) 06:40, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Sounds great, but I really don't have the energy for such a discussion, so if you could bring this up with the grammar project, I'd appreciate it. My position is that nearly all of the literature which discusses the concept uses the unhyphenated version, e.g. e.g. e.g. e.g. e.g. e.g. e.g. therefore the unhyphenated version is the common name, which should be used. Thanks. :) --Malkinann (talk) 08:08, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the references, which show interesting characteristics. -- To summarize the state of play thus far:

Text 1 uses "magical girl as a bracketed translation of maho shojo.
Text 2 uses noun phrases unmarked and puts the adjectival phrases in inverted commas.
Text 3 consistently uses no punctuation.
Text 4 uses quotes to introduce the term; thereafter omits punctuation.
Text 5 consistently omits punctuation.
Text 6 uses a hyphen in an adjectival phrase in a picture caption; but uses quotes for an adjectival phrase in the text.
Text 7 uses quotes consistently to contain the adjectival phrase.

In summary, the texts have varying approaches to the issue of marking an adjectival phrase and avoiding the potential ambiguities of (say) a magical genre about girls vs a genre involving entities called "magical girls". Most of them distinguish the adjectival phrase from the noun phrase in some way. Using quotes suggests a neologism -- I prefer to follow WP:HYPHEN to clarify the use of compound adjectives: using magical-girl genre in contradistinction to a potential magical girl-genre, but without any suggestion of changing magical girl (un-hyphenated) when used as an article title (per WP:COMMONNAME) or as a noun phrase. -- HoundsOfSpring (talk) 07:44, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

I've never seen the term "magical girl" hyphenated by reliable sources. I also think that doing so without the backing of a large array of reliable source would be a violation of WP:NOR even if similar terms may be hyphenated. —Farix (t | c) 19:47, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Does something about the phrase "magical girl" make it an exception to the rules of the Wikipedia Manual-of-Style guideline when we adapt it to use as an adjectival phrase? -- HoundsOfSpring (talk) 06:23, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Given that English has not hard grammar rules (there are at least a half-dozen exceptions to every rule) and that all reliable sources, including the ones you linked to, don't use a hyphen is more than enough reason to ignore the strict wording of WP:MOS. By including a hyphen, we would be inventing something that doesn't exists. —Farix (t | c) 03:08, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the "ignore all rules" reminder! Given that not every grammar rule has 5 or more exceptions and since we have no suggestion that anything specific about the phrase "magical girl" makes it any sort of exception to the Wikipedia Manual-of-Style guideline and seeing that we have (thanks to the research of User:Malkinann) a perfectly conformant reliable source to show the way, I feel re-assured that using a hyphen (in compund adjectives only) has a good pedigree. We certainly don't want to invent something that doesn't already exist - nor do we do so: we simply take an existing established and secure noun phrase and turn it into a standard adjectival phrase by following the well-worn conventions of the English language, and marking the result orthographically with a hyphen. The usage of the phrase doesn't change. The title of the article "Magical girl" remains the same. References to "magical girls" remain in place. But we can disambiguate when we use the term adjectivally. (NB: I've also invited the Wikipedia Grammar Guardians at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Grammar to comment.) -- HoundsOfSpring (talk) 06:49, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure what that link proves as the term does not have a hyphen in the passage. And combined with all of the other examples above and shows that the term is not hyphenated in normal usage as either a noun or an adjective. —Farix (t | c) 10:42, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

As mentioned previously, the hyphen appears in an image-caption. More precisely, on page 78 - http://books.google.com.au/books?id=VgdjrS-lYwQC&pg=PA78#v=onepage&q&f=false - the caption for the uppermost picture reads: "Right: Luna the cat helps Sailor Moon discover her magic powers and her role as leader of a color-co-ordinated girl superteam. Naoko Takeuchi revitalized the magical-girl genre in the monthly Nakayoshi magazine." -- And as mentioned previously, other examples in respectable secondary sources on the general topic mark out compound-adjectival uses with quote-marks, which make the phrase look like a neologism. Would you prefer to use that mechanism rather than follow Wikipedia house style (and good standard English-language usage) as recommended in the WP:MOS? -- HoundsOfSpring (talk) 06:56, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

The majority of the writers on Japanese anime culture do not use "magical-girl". I think that's been pretty much proven.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 07:04, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Then too we have Sugar, spice, and everything nice: cinemas of girlhood By Frances K. Gateward and Murray Pomerance.(Wayne State University press, 2002) Page 279 includes: "Unlike the females in the magical-girl genre, the girls and young women in science fiction anime do not reject their power." ISBN 9780814329184. The hyphenated version looks like a useful convention which happens to accord with the Wikipedia Manual of Style. -- HoundsOfSpring (talk) 06:34, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

The fact of the matter is that the term is almost never hyphenated, so it shouldn't be hyphenated on Wikipedia to comply with common usage. Pointing to two examples of hundreds doesn't make the case that the term should be hyphenated. —Farix (t | c) 14:32, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

I don't know that we can conclude that the term "almost never" appears hyphenated; and comparing two specific examples with vague "hundreds" needs to take into account the different grammatical functions involved: we can't compare apples with oranges, we can compare the use of compound adjectival phrases (such as "the magical-girl fad") with simple labels (like "here we encounter a magical girl") or with appositional uses (like "Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha") where I suspect most writers would baulk at using a hyphen. And see also:

Bitch: feminist response to pop culture, Issues 14-18, Bitch Publications, 2001, page 90: "She has moved on from her obsession with heavy metal to an obsession with magical-girl anime." See: http://books.google.com/books?id=1m-1AAAAIAAJ

The Art of Studio Gainax: Experimentation, Style and Innovation at the Leading Edge of Anime by Dani Cavallaro (McFarland, 2008), ISBN 9780786433766, page 165: "These fantasies are accompanied by a shot of Hikari in typical Magical-Girl garb that is overtly inspired by the character of Tsukino Usagi from Sailor Moon[...]"

page 54 of the same book by Cavallaro: "[...] the Magical-Girl show Misty May."

page 194 of the same book by Cavallaro (just in case we suspected typos previously): "[...] the Magical-Girl TV series [...]

Anime Classics Zettai!: 100 Must-See Japanese Animation Masterpieces (Film, Theatre and Entertainment Series) by Brian Camp and Julie Davis (Stone Bridge Press, 2007), page 331: "Thanks to the success of Sailor Moon in the US, other magical-girl series were brought over [...]"

It seems that "magical-girl" and even "Magical-Girl" crop up as standard variants of the phrase "magical girl" - constructed again and again and unashamedly by various writers coming at the magical-girl phenomenon from various fields of interest and employing standard English-language style to treat of their topic. We can too - where the circumstances call for it, and following the WP:MOS without worrying about making specific exceptions to its rules either.

- HoundsOfSpring (talk) 07:04, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

I suggest a notation be made within the text acknowledging magical-girl can also be used. Perhaps in the first line of the article as shown: Magical girls (魔法少女, mahō shōjo?, also known as mahou shoujo, majokko or magical-girl) since it appears that both are 'correct'. Primary use and focus within the article will reflect the most commonly used form of the term which is magical girl. Would that suffice? Fox816 (talk) 22:16, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

That notation sounds excellent as a compromise - but it would look very bad as an incorrect fact. The hyphenated form "magical-girl" only ever occurs in English as an adjectival phrase, as in "magical-girl genre" or "magical-girl tradition". I don't think we can truthfully refer to magical girls as "magical-girls". I do agree that we can expect primarily to see "magical girl" - certainly in the article title, and normally in the text. - I have set up a redirection page which points magical-girl to magical girl. If people think it desirable to highlight the (subordinate) legitimacy of the form with the hyphen, we could add a hat-note saying something like "Magical-girl" redirects here. But personally I think that unnecessary. -- HoundsOfSpring (talk) 06:38, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

It's entirely unnecessary because (according to you) no one else would ever be looking up "Magical-girl" and not expect to find this page, English grammar be damned.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 23:48, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

One of the very first objections to the use of a hyphenated form came from User:Malkinann on 2010-03-31 and addressed the lengthy piping from hyphenated forms to the unhyphenated article-title. A redirection helps address that issue. (English grammar won't go away any time soon, I suspect.) -- HoundsOfSpring (talk) 06:47, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

Genre history; Increase in male-marketed series

In relation to the quote from John Opplinger needed to verify the claim that he stated this was the case in this section of the article proper, I'd say these two (sourced from here) qualify said claim as verified: 'The existence of transforming or magical girl anime designed for male audiences isn’t a new trend, but it does seem to have become more pronounced within the past three years. The increase coincides with the contemporary “moe” anime trend, and in that light, seems very logical and predictable.' (second paragraph) and 'While not a new trend, magical girl anime for male viewers do seem to be more prolific lately because they coincidentally adhere to the standards of the currently popular “moe” genre. Since these shows are targeted at male viewers that passionately collect the DVDs and merchandise affiliated with these shows, the programs tend to exhibit the characteristics that attract male viewers. Frequently that means action and fighting. In other words, I don’t think we’re seeing a sudden development and explosion of transforming bishoujo anime for male viewers. Rather, I think that this particular type of anime has periodic examples spread out over the past 30 years, with many of them coming in close proximity concurrent with the “moe” explosion. So I expect this type of anime to continue, but I predict that instances will become more sporadic as interest in the “moe” phenomenon wanes and evolves into something else.' (final paragraph). --Andrensath (talk | contribs) 09:11, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

KOREAN????

"As with most junior idols in Japan and Korea, she is likely invested her career as a child actor, a model, a poet, a musician, a dancer, or a K-pop/J-pop singer."

Is Magical girl affected by KOREAN?　I have not watched "Korean Anime character".211.122.250.144 (talk) 17:21, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

The majority of Japanese animation and Anime-inspired Western animation are outsourced to Korean animation studios due to favorable cost-effectiveness... so chances are, you indeed have been watching "Korean Anime character". --173.51.29.188 (talk) 22:07, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

korean is a subcontract. They do not make key setting. 60.33.34.48 (talk) 14:10, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

Magical girls and feminism (or, understanding features of magical girl series from a social and cultural perspective)

Sailor Moon#Legacy has a very interesting overview of several analyses of elements of that series, particularly in the context of both traditional feminine ideals and feminism. Many of the observations are about features which define the entire magical girl genre. I was surprised that a more detailed description of these elements does not exist in this article. (Lifting some of the text from that article could be a start).

Triskelios (talk) 00:28, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Tags for improvement

Exactly how was it a good idea for someone to wander in and overload the tags quite this heavily? This is an absolute mess! Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 19:56, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Bewitched(1964 in America. 1966 in Japan) 　Himitsu no Akko-chan(1962 in japan)

Bewitched(1964 in America. 1966 in Japan). Himitsu no Akko-chan(1962 in japan).

Why do you Destruction "Himitsu no Akko-chan(1962)"?　akko-chan is fast Magical girl MANGA

220.106.176.108 (talk) 16:03, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

The false rumor for the magic girl. "Himitsu no Akko-chan(1962-1965)" was affected by Bewitched(1966).

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagicalGirl

"Mitsuteru Yokoyama's Mahotsukai Sally (Sally the Witch, 1966-1968) and Akatsuka Fujio's Himitsu no Akko-chan (broadcast 1969, but its manga predates Mahotsukai Sally) — the creators of both credit Bewitched as a primary inspiration for their work. Yokoyama explicitly adapted its concept for a younger audience, while Akatsuka merely says he was "inspired" by it."

Writing an argument to correct a false rumor in Wikipedia?　60.33.34.48 (talk) 13:39, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

The myth of Bewitched is an impostor. The English speaker tells a lie that Bewitched is the magical girl origin. They do not show an accurate broadcast day in Japan. 60.33.34.48 (talk) 03:01, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

Magical girl as a sub-genre

So, according to this article (and others), magical girl is a sub-genre of anime and manga. But last time I checked, anime is not a genre. (Same with manga.) I know on Winx Club's article it says not to add magical girl as a genre, because Winx Club is not Japanese. But if anime is not a genre, magical girl would more accurately be a sub-genre of fantasy, correct? Thereby qualifying Winx Club. Any thoughts on this? WonderBuono! (talk) 00:33, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

You may want to bring that up with WP:ANIME since there was a consensus to move the category from magical girl to its current name to prevent these types of listings. The real question is are there any sources calling American and European shows that have girls with magical powers as Magical Girl.--174.93.163.194 (talk) 04:06, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, ignore the Winx Club part I said. I was trying to use an example to illustrate my point but it backfired on me a little bit with the lack of sources. I do still believe that magical girl isn't a sub-genre of anime, though. WonderBuono! (talk) 21:04, 21 February 2014 (UTC)