Talk:Manfred Gerstenfeld

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Reads like a resume[edit]

I think that this article requires cleanup and should focus on encyclopedic values.—comment added by John Hyams(t/c)

Agreed, apparently set up by himself (?). Edited into article style. But is there adequate evidence of notability? HG | Talk 03:04, 4 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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BLP vio[edit]

@Huldra: - blanket reverts such as this on BLPs are not acceptable. In addition to removing a URL to one of the non-English sources as well as well sourced info from JPost on Gerstenfeld, you have restored several BLP vios - as the information you have restored (e.g. the long list of names) simply does not appear in the cited sources. Per WP:NOENG please provide a quotation and a translation of each single bit here in these two paragraphs sourced to a non-Engliah source. I also suggest you self revert - as restoring unsourced and false information to a BLP is a pretty big deal.Icewhiz (talk) 20:19, 26 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Well, that was easily fixed...don't expect it to be forgotten that he called Norwegians for a "barbaric and unintelligent people". (Hmmmmm, I wonder what would have happened if someone had called the Jews for a "barbaric and unintelligent people"??) Frankly, I have rarely read so racist views as those of mr Gerstenfeld. Dont even try to hide that, Huldra (talk) 20:35, 26 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
WP:BLPTALK applies as well - absent a source for "racist" for a noted antisemitism scholar commenting on "death to Jews" chants in Oslo. Again - per WP:NOENG - provide full quotations and translations for the entire passage that is sourced to non-English sources. Per my reading - much of what is in the article is not in the cited sources.Icewhiz (talk) 20:49, 26 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Again, what would you think if anyone called Jews a "barbaric and unintelligent people"? That aside, please bring to talk passages/sentences that you think are not sourced, or are not in the cited sources. Huldra (talk) 21:06, 26 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
He did not actually say that - TV2 mixed different sentences together (in their intro narration). I challenged what I challenged very clearly. Per WP:NOENG it is up to you to provide quotations and translations - for the entire passage on Norway please. In regards to "forblindede, men høyrøstede fanatikere" you referred to in Aftenposten's oped - it appears in a paragraph without Gerstenfeld being mentioned - so you can't use that. Same for first paragraph (separate sentence). Aftenposten may imply - but they were very careful not to say "Gerstenfeld is X" - which they simply did not say. You also can't use the oped for an unattributed fact (which you did by adding it as citation to other bits in an edit oddly marked as ce). In any event - per NOENG - full quote + full translation of each bit from the sources that is used to construct the passage. You reverted here - you are reaponsible for each and every BLP vio and source use.Icewhiz (talk) 21:18, 26 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
According to TV2 he "karakteriserer nordmenn som et barbarisk og uintellektuelt folkeferd, som «har en sykelig trang til å trosse verdensopinionen», og bruker drap på sel og hval som eksempler."link (from (a pretty good) google translation: "characterizes Norwegians as a barbaric and non-intellectual people, who "have a morbid urge to defy world opinion", and use murder of seals and whales as examples.") Want more? Huldra (talk) 21:41, 26 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Not a direct quote but a paraphrase. I did not challenge what TV2 is said to have said Gerstenfeld said (when in the cited source). Again - please provide per NOENG quotations from each cited source (+translation) supporting each of the 7 sentences currently in the article.Icewhiz (talk) 21:55, 26 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
TV2 is a RS. Nothing in BLP says that we cannot have a paraphrase from a RS. Please bring one and one sentence which you challenge, Huldra (talk) 21:59, 26 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
TV2's shock journalism a RS? Iffy, as is the use of a non-English source when we have better English sources available - contrary to NOENG. However if they paraphrase - it is obviously incorrect for us to treat this as a quotation. I want a quotation + translation for each bit that you restored here. Per my reading - what I removed was not in the cited sources. Please also justify your removal of the context (which even Norway's media was decent enough to include) of Gerstenfeld's stmt - e.g. "Death to Jews" chants in Oslo or what Gerstenfeld's had to say on Fure's center (in 2011, as opposed to 2009). Icewhiz (talk) 22:10, 26 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Also, no, as Gersenfelds words to the Jewish community of Norway made very clear: it was the Stoltenberg government policies toward Israel which Gerstenfeld fought against, using alleged anti semitism as a weapon. Magically, the moment Norway got a more Israel friendly government, most of those allegations went away, making me think of Shulamit Alonis words about charges of antisemitism "are "a trick we use" to suppress criticism of Israel." Huldra (talk) 22:51, 26 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
WP:OR. I will also note that in the field, stmts from within the threatened community that diminish the threat are oftsen discounted (as those threatened may be speaking under duress). Regardless - quotes supporting the content please.Icewhiz (talk) 23:03, 26 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
"speaking under duress"?? Better and better. Lol, oh Icewhiz, you obviously don't know Anne Sender. Anyway, I will work more on this tomorrow, (I think), as I believe the response from the Norwegian Jewish community should also be included, Huldra (talk) 23:28, 26 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
"TV2's shock journalism"? Huh? Who the heck is your source for that; MIFF? Huldra (talk) 22:19, 26 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
We can discuss later NPOV/RS issues of sourcing on this topic from sources in a country considered, by experts, to have a high degree of anti-Semitism. In the meantime - what I removed wasn't in the sources you were citing. Pony up - quotations+translations, per NOENG, directly supporting the content you restored please.Icewhiz (talk) 22:28, 26 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
"considered, by experts, to have a high degree of anti-Semitism." Oh whaw. Btw, Anne Sender opinion of him is noteable, me thinks, here. Gerstenfeld stated (in a meeting with Norwegian Jews) "I couldnt care less about the Jewish Community in Norway, all I care about is to get your Jens, Jonas and Kristin off the back of my Prime Minister". Charming. Huldra (talk) 22:34, 26 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Quotes please for the content you restored. Direct quotes that clearly support the contentmin our article. Aftenposten talking about unspecified right-wing or fanatics in an oped in which they also mention our subject does not pass V for them saying this in our subject. Quotes please.Icewhiz (talk) 22:41, 26 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Bits failing V[edit]

Please do not restore without, per WP:NOENG, providing a very clear quotation and translation. Since no quotations have been provided, despite repeated requests, I removed the following:

  1. diff - Cited sources don't say "is controversial". The list of names does not appear in full in the cited sources - some of them do appear in an op-ed in Aftenposten - however others (e.g. Stoltenberg) - do not. The op-ed probably isn't a WP:RS for unattributed use, and it says: "Gerstenfeld claims that ...list of of names... also accused of making indirect contributions to what is claimed to be Norwegian anti-Semitism". which is quite different from being "anti-semites" which was in our article - BLP vio vs. Gerstenfeld and vs. those named BLPs who weren't accused of being antisemites even according to the op-ed. In addition, the Aftenposten editorial does not label Gerstenfeld as a " far-right extremist and fanatic" - it makes an oblique reference to "vocal fanatics" generally, but does not pin this on Gerstenfeld specifically.
  2. diff - this info on Hercz is not in the cited source. It is also a tad pufferyish.
  3. diff - this puffery of Fure is not in the cited source (which itself lends credence to Gerstenfeld accusations against Fure's center - the title of the piece being "Fears of the credibility of the investigation" - in relation to Fure's investigation, and describing Gerstenfeld's criticism of Fure's investigation prior to Fure's response).
  4. diff - The description of Waage doesn't match the source. Furthermore Waage, while complaining generally about the claim/campaign that "Norway is the most antisemitic country in Europe", does not say anything about Gerstenfeld or the "Israeli far-right".

All information in WP:BLP articles must be properly sourced. Per WP:NOENG, quotations and translations should be provided if another editor challenges the content. Icewhiz (talk) 10:00, 28 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Re 4 Jerusalem Post fjernet artikkel This edit line is clearly wrong. Firstly, Hilde Waage is described as a Middle Eastern expert (and she is). Secondly, I assume you use google.translate.. heh "on near a black campaign against Norway" makes no sense, svertekampanje is smear campaign. And Waage refer to the Jerusalem Post article which indeed had used Gerstenfeld as a source. The Jerusalem Post also quoted Imre Hercz, who said he had stated the opposite of what Jerusalem Post actually wrote. (And Imre Hercz was a very credible man, I wouldn't doubt him),
Re 3, I agree with removing puffery, but not with the reasoning. And it is NOT "Fure's center" (LOL! The Center for Studies of the Holocaust and Religious Minorities (Norway) was set up after the 1990s World War II restitution, at the behest of the World Jewish Congress. (Also, the Jews of Norway didn't want it all to go to themselves, as they though that would make them more favoured that other hard hit groups, see eg Telavåg).
Re 2, The article identifies Imre Hercz as a Holocaust survivor (which he was), he should be indentified as that in this article, too. His words "forferdet" is translated with "criticised"...that is far to weak; "horrified" or "appalled" would be better words,
Re 1, all are named, except Stoltenberg..and he is mentioned (by MG) other places, like here: NORWAY AND ANTI-SEMITISM Just how bad it really is, August 15, 2011. What I find interesting, is that MG hasn't said a word, AFAIK, about anti−semitism in Norway since 2013, that is, after Erna Solberg became PM, and started a generally friendly Israel policy. Funny that, from being the worst anti−semitic country in Europe too...not, virtually over night! Lol. Huldra (talk) 23:07, 29 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Everything needs to he sourced without SYNTH or OR. Fure manages (or managed) the center). Waage doesn't refer to our subject, the JPost article used many sources - guessing she is referrring to our subject is OR. Gerstenfeld, and others, also criticized government sponsored hate. However he has not been silent on Norway since 2013, see for instance - 2016 in JPost - and a cursory search shows several other instances.Icewhiz (talk) 03:25, 30 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Huldra and myself are well aware of synth and or, being around here for over a decade. The JP sources are three, among whom Gerstenfeld, and all one needs to do is make that clear.('Gerstenfeld was one of the sources of the JP article where it was stated' etc. I only have one year of Swedish, but I did download all the Norwegian articles, got a google version of each, and closely compared them. If one wishes, I can supply the original statements in footnotes, and either I or H (am I presuming too much?) or preferably both can add a translation. Much of the material was reliably translated in the Mondoweiss coverage of the mediatic kerfuffle by Philip Weiss. Sure he keeps writing, but despite Anshel Pfeffer's silly uninformed remark, I don't think he's taken seriously outside of the circles he moves in or writes for. Were his method generalzed, what conclkusion would be b e forced to draw of far more 'horrifying' statistics about Israeli attitudes to another semitic people, Arabs? Of course, nothing. That's not 'antisemitic'. Nishidani (talk) 15:03, 30 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Without Waage directly referring to Gerstenfeld, this is a red-line BLP vio. Mondoweiss is an opinionated blog - not a RS. As for your un-sourced opinions on Gerstenfeld above - please note that WP:BLPTALK applies. The Journal for the Study of Antisemitism and Simon Wiesenthal Center - both of which have quite a bit of expertise in antisemitism research have seen fit to award our BLP scholar subject. Haaretz is a RS as well.Icewhiz (talk) 15:13, 30 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Mondoweiss is not an opinionated blog. It is a Jewish news website, with editors, writers and contributors, which happens to be highly critical of Israeli policies. We accept numerous pro-Israeli Jewish news websites: you yourself have touted Arutz Sheva as reliable, have you not? The article cited is a normal example of investigative background journalism. If you dislike it, take it up at RSN.
My remark is not a BLP violation. Pfeffer's remark only shows an utter unfamiliarity with Holocaust and Antisemitism scholarship: you won't find Gerstenfeld cited in any of those fields, because he has no background as an historian or as a scholar in these fields. He was trained in science and economics. It's unfocused puffery, but stays in, because the source is RS, and attributed as one journalist's opinion.Nishidani (talk) 16:34, 30 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Mondoweiss is a very small website running mostly opinions, not news. Gerstenfeld is actually cited quite often per google scholar.[1] Icewhiz (talk) 17:27, 30 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not challenging your right to an opinion. It provides much on-the ground direct reportage from the West Bank, aside from op-eds. If you like to take this to the RSN board, drop me a link here. It has passed the test several times. I went through the google scholar indexes. Gerstenfeld is predominantly quoted in the polemical literature. His thesis is simple. Virtually any negative thinking about Israel and its occupation by outsiders is suspect as anti-Semitic - that is perhaps one of the laziest memes in current discourse. Yawn. By scholarship, I mean people who conduct archival, statistical, analytical studies over a field. Gerstenfeld has zero grounding in the techniques of scholarly peer-reviewed work that provides us with intelligent analysis. Nishidani (talk) 19:42, 30 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The thing is, it is even worse that that, Nishidani. Anne Sender, who had been in the elected leadership ("board of governance") of the "Jewish Society" (no:Det mosaiske trossamfunn) in Norway for 15–20 years, including 6−7 year as (a very vocal) leader wrote well about it. The main ones who Gerstenfeld consulted, was no:Senter mot antisemittisme, which was and is run by an Israeli couple who were excommunicated from no:Det mosaiske trossamfunn in 2004, namely no:Erez Uriely and no:Rachel Suissa. According to Michael Melchior, they were Kahanist. So these 2 Israelis "count" for more than the elected representatives of the Norwegian Jews...for Gerstenfeld.

Btw, I have never, ever seen Anne Sender so angry, as when once the Israeli ambassador to Norway appointed herself to be a "spokesperson" for the Jews of Norway...Lol.

Anyway, I will listen to what the elected spokespersons for the Jews on Norway think about "Norwegian antisemitism" any day: their opinions are valuable. The opinions of self−promoted, or Israel−appointed "spokespersons for the Jews in Norway"....hmm, not so much, Huldra (talk) 21:01, 1 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Very interesting, if not surprising. It would be well worth inclusion here. Do you have a link to RS that tell the Gerstenfeld -Kahanist-Sender story? 19:38, 2 May 2019 (UTC)Nishidani (talk)
In the link I gave above, here, where she points out Gerstenfeld connection with the no:Senter mot antisemittisme. Gerstenfeld's reply to the elected representatives of the Norwegian Jews is quoted (in English): "I couldnt care less about the Jewish Community in Norway, all I care about is to get your Jens, Jonas and Kristin off the back of my Prime Minister". I think that should go into the article. My 2 cents: No-one in Norway, perhaps with the exceptions of the Jewish community, cares one bit about Gerstenfeld. Odd-Bjørn Fure (who, if anything is rather "right of centre") was spot on. Btw, the same people (that is: Erez Uriely and Rachel Suissa) called the Christian Vårt Land for an anti−Semitic newspaper, compared former PM Kåre Willoch with Adolf Hitler, attacked Ariel Sharon for his "ethnic cleansing" of Jews from Gaza, etc. etc, etc. Rachel Suissa has also published at Document.no, a favourite webpage of this pro−Israeli shit. Huldra (talk) 20:29, 2 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. Sorry I didn't click through earlier. Too much other reading and woodchopping to do, not to speak of other problems. I've made a provisory edit. Nishidani (talk) 12:23, 3 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
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