Talk:Marrakesh/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Lemurbaby (talk · contribs) 03:24, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

1. Is it reasonably well written?

   A. Prose quality:

   B. MoS compliance for lead, layout, words to watch, fiction, and lists:

2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?

   A. References to sources:

   B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:

   C. No original research:

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. Major aspects:

   B. Focused:

4. Is it neutral?

   Fair representation without bias:

5. Is it stable?

   No edit wars, etc:

6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?

   A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:

   B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

Comments

• Hi Bloefeld, I'll be reviewing this over the next few days. Thanks for bringing such an important African city article up for GA. If you have your own African city GA review itch to scratch, I'd be glad for your experienced eyes on my Ambohimanga World Heritage Site article. Back to you hopefully tonight. - Lemurbaby (talk) 03:24, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

Reserved yours for review, probably best I review that when you've done this! Yes this article has been extremely well-researched and I'm confident that it does the city justice.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 15:12, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! And feel free to take some time to review Ambohimanga. I'm actually going to be in Madagascar from June 30 to July 14 (and taking photos / gathering archival info for articles when not hitting the beaches and hiking for lemurs!) so I won't be able to respond to that article's review until mid-July. Lemurbaby (talk) 19:32, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

I see, can we get this review done before you go then?♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 06:00, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Lead

• Remove the two references from the lead to include them (and the info they cite) in the body of the article
• "the city became known for its "Seven Saints"" - beginning around what century?

• Done

Etymology

• "interregnum of Mohammed Ben Aarafa" - add when this was

• Done

History

• "cousin of Yusuf ibn Tashfin" add a title or other reference to briefly inform the reader who ibn Tashfin is

• Clarified

• The explanation provided is still not clear for me. Can you explain here who this person is and why he's important, and maybe we can try together to find the right way to phrase it in the article?

I added that he was an Almoravid king

• "Yusuf ibn Tashfin completed the mosque" - which mosque?

• The first mosque built by his father is given now

• Could you add the name of the mosque into the sentence cited above please?

• this looks good

• "As a trading center, Marrakesh had once influenced political polarization of the western Maghreb." - I'm not quite clear what's meant here

• Clarified

• I still don't understand why or how Marrakesh influenced political polarization - in what sense was there polarization?

• I'm removing this. The information might fit here if it is explained differently.

• "The Portuguese had installed trading posts in numerous Muslim towns in the south including Azemmour in 1486 and Safi in 1488 and others, later." I'd recommend more explicitly explaining how this relates to Marrakesh.

• With your changes, I still don't see how this relates to Marrakesh.

I'm getting a sense that Marrakech had a role to play in the establishment of the Western Sahara as a political entity, but it's not clear. I'm removing this whole section until it can be developed further.

• The section on the seven saints is a bit unclear. I'd recommend a little more background on how many Muslims in Morocco traditionally venerated particular mystics and make pilgrimages to their tombs, then explain the relationship (if any) that these particular seven saints had to Marrakesh (did they live and preach there in their lifetimes?). Mention when Moulay Ismail reigned to help give a timeline, and also discuss which saints were moved there and when. You have six saints listed - can you add the seventh?

• I have done the needful. But no data on number of visitors is available.

• We still need a sentence or two to explain the importance of saints and pilgrimage in Moroccan Sufi Islam. What are the dates used here? Some are a single year and others are date ranges.

This is still light on explanation, but I've made some changes that I think will make it easier for the casual reader to understand the importance of this tradition.

• "Europeans were not permitted to enter the city" - was this because of its holy status? If so, this line could be moved to the end of the preceding paragraph

• Clarified

• It's still not clear why this restriction was in effect. What was the reason?

• While we still don't know why, the way its worded now makes that less important. I assume it is for religious reasons and moved the sentence to the end of the previous paragraph because it didn't seem related to the information in the paragraph where it was before.

• "the victory of the Mangin column over the al-Hiba forces" - It would be good to clarify whether the Mangin column was French

• It was the French column. Made changes.

• "France, who agreed to terminate its Moroccan Protectorate" - in what year?

• Elaborated

• We still need the year when the protectorate ended

• I added this

• "disastrous situation in Indochina" - I'd recommend replacing this subjective description with a brief summary of what exactly was going wrong there

• Word "disastrous" has been replaced by war and internal link to Indo China War has been made and also clarifications provided

• Regarding the bombing, it would be good to mention who claimed responsibility (or that no one did, if this is the case) and the reason given, if any

• This information could not be located in any reference

• I found it in two seconds on Google. Please add the information as requested.

• Added

Geography and climate

• Here you describe what the High Atlas is - it would be good to explain this on the first appearance of the term

• Elaborated

Economy

• "Despite the financial crisis..." - are you referring to the global crisis since 2008, or one within Morocco? Clarify location and starting year

• Changed to economic crisis in the world

• "as of April 2012 it was about 45% complete" - is there more recent information on this?

• No further information is available

General

• Make sure all dates use consistent formatting, either month-day-year or day-month-year

• Verified.

• I found an instance of this - please check again

Royal palace

• Explain the meaning of the term zellij

• Explained

Bahia palace

• "Upon the death of Bou-Ahmed" in what year?

• Details provided

• I have addressed most of the review observations. I will be back in a few hours to make changes as required on other issues. Thanks.--Nvvchar. 19:26, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

• I have addressed all the above observations. Please let me know if there are any more needed. Thanks.--Nvvchar. 05:37, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

Ben Youssef Mosque

• "rebuilt by Saadian Sultan " when?

• Mentioned now.

• "are also replicated in the Ben Youssef Madrasa" - the citation at the end here needs a page number

• Done

Saadian Tombs

• briefly explain why Ahmad al-Mansur is important

• Done

• I don't see what explanation's been given here

I added that he was a sultan

Seven Saints Tombs

• "The spiritual tour... al-Suhayl." Please reword this - the wording and organization of this section are unclear

• Reworded

Dar Si Said Museum

• "brother of Bou-Ahmed, Sisi Said" - explain why these people are important

• Done.

General

• Please review the entire article and apply a consistent standard for italicization of foreign language words. Either italicize them on every occasion, never, or on the first instance only, but apply the same system throughout.

• Hopefully done

• I found an instance of a non-italicized foreign word - please check again

• Please write out numbers from zero to nine, and use numerals for numbers 10 or higher

• Done

• Please remove over-linking throughout: link a term only on its first use in the lead, first use in the body and first use in an image caption

• Done

• Please review all the references to make sure p= is used for single pages and pp= is used for page ranges

• Some of the references have been reformatted and page numbers are indicated as suggested

• Looks good

Points have been addressed I believe.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 09:37, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

• I have addressed all the additional issues raised by you. If there are any left it would be by oversight. Pl mention them so that correction can be done. Thanks.--Nvvchar. 21:19, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

• Thanks for being so responsive, Nvvchar. I'm now in Madagascar where I have intermittent access to internet. I will most likely complete the review early next week. Thanks for your patience. Lemurbaby (talk) 06:23, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• File:El_Badi_Palace_by_Adriaen_Matham_1640.jpg needs US copyright info

Not sure which image you are referring to, if it's problematic please remove it.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 17:03, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

I removed it.

• There are many references that don't have corresponding anchors. This is probably a matter of not consistently using the "harv" reference format, or else inconsistency in reference info. For example, ref 4 is listed as Searbright in the references section and Seabright in the bibliography section. Here's the full list of refs with "anchor problems": 4, 7, 12, 16, 19, 21, 27, 29, 32, 36, 41, 43, 44, 56, 58, 69, 75, 76, 86, 90, 91, 92, 93, 96, 102, 107, 110, 111, 114, 115, 118, 118, 121, 122, 123, 127, 128, 129, 131, 139, 142, 144, 147, 148, 151, 152, 153, 155, 157, 159, 160

I believe Nvv and I added those by mistake in the early days of us using sfn and not knowing that you have to add a | between each surname in the sfn note. For double authors Nvv place a | between the surnames in the sfn notes. When you click the author and page note in the refs it should anchor to the books further down. Remember this for future articles and chek to see that when you click the sfn note it takes you to the book, will save time later that way! Sorting now.

The other issue seems to be SFN refs without a year, and inconsistent years or spelling of the author's name between the citation and the SFN. I'm going through the remaining 15 or so that are still coming up as errors and adding/fixing the year and fixing the spelling of the authors' name to ensure the consistency. This would be another detail to check on the Paris article before nominating it. Lemurbaby (talk) 05:58, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

• Add a page number to the reference following this quote: "a drum that beats an African identity into the complex soul of Morocco."

If you google that quote you'll find that the page number isn't available in the Marrakech: the red city - Barnaby Rogerson, Stephen Lavington book.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 17:03, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

• A page number is also needed for the ref after the sentence: "Marrakesh is one of the great citadels of the Islamic world."

Again not available, same book

• What is "Shifa"? - "Kadi of Cueta (1083-1149), a theologian and author of Shifa"

Again I can't locate it because you haven't structured these latest comments, if its problematic please remove.

• Thanks for your edits

• "until the designated sultan Abd al-Aziz became of age" - is there an article for this person? The current link is to a general article about the Arabic name, not a specific person

Can't find the sentence but the person I believe is Abu Faris Abdul Aziz I of Morocco, please pipe this.

Thanks for making the fix

• "many European, Arabic and Indian film stars" - page number for this ref?

Again, not available

• Thanks for verifying

• "Tajines may also be basted with a Moroccan ghee that has a flavor similar to blue cheese." let's add a ref for this

Added.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 17:03, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

• We also need references for the sister cities

Can't find a reliable source on that one.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 17:16, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

• I'll hide it for now, until the information can be verified

• I believe that concludes my review of the article. - Lemurbaby (talk) 14:26, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for such a vigorous review of this. Normally I would consider it rather picky, but given that I think this has FA potential I see your review as a positive thing and Nvv and myself much appreciate the time you've spent on this. I believe everything has been addressed now, aside from the one or two minor things I couldn't locate and ask you to fix.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 17:20, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi Blofeld, I appreciate you and Nvv putting so much time and effort into this article. I saw you two were thinking of tackling Paris next. I'd suggest requesting a copy edit before nomination since this one did need some prose and grammar fixes that a copy editor could make, which would speed up the GA. Lemurbaby (talk) 05:58, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

• Great work on a thorough and well-researched city article, NVV and Bloefeld! I've passed this for GA. Congratuations! - Lemurbaby (talk) 05:58, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Thankyou! Well, my articles usually do get several pair of eyes reading over them, and without meaning to blow my own trumpet, I often get requests to copyedit the work of others before nominating for FA which has produced a number of FAs in the past so my writing skills can't be that awful!♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 06:21, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

I know you're a solid editor, and you've contributed so much great work on Wikipedia. This was one of those articles that had bits and pieces contributed by many people, and it was very long, so it's only natural for it to be susceptible to some bits here and there that could stand to be improved. The Paris article will be the same way. It's certainly no comment on the quality of your contributions that these types of articles (or most, for that matter) benefit from a copy edit. I'm grateful for the work you and Nvv have done and continue to do here... really critical and high quality work. Please keep it up! Lemurbaby (talk) 19:27, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

• Thank you very much for promoting this article to GA. It was my first huge effort with Dr B.--Nvvchar. 00:25, 14 July 2013 (UTC)